Mod Note:
This discussion is a continuation on a topic of V8 research. HERE

EdBwoy wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:53 pm

Thank you.
Keep it on a dose of cleaner and see how much time it buys you. If/when you eventually replace them, you are welcome to donate your old manifolds for research.
How did that work out by the way - you were going to try Cataclean for your P0420/P0430 code, right?

Cataclean didn't help. My light still comes on when it's super cold out, but I'm holding out hope that once old man Winter packs his bags that it'll go off in time for my next inspection lol.

Did u add cataclean once a month for a few months ?

Same for me. Light come on (p0420) a month and half ago. Cleared it 3 times, kept coming back even after cataclean.

Taking mine in on Monday for new Cat. Service Manager likes me and has good regional guy I guess. Inifiniti is covering the cost of the Cat I just have to pay for labor. They did the same on my wife's QX56 a couple months ago it had 96k miles. Got lucky to get mine covered at 104k miles.


REALLY wished someone made a set of headers and a bolt on HFC for these cars (and the QX56/QX70).

Frog wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:19 am

Did u add cataclean once a month for a few months ?

I have to do it for half a year? No one said that.

biggie wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:28 pm

Same for me. Light come on (p0420) a month and half ago. Cleared it 3 times, kept coming back even after cataclean.

Taking mine in on Monday for new Cat. Service Manager likes me and has good regional guy I guess. Inifiniti is covering the cost of the Cat I just have to pay for labor. They did the same on my wife's QX56 a couple months ago it had 96k miles. Got lucky to get mine covered at 104k miles.


REALLY wished someone made a set of headers and a bolt on HFC for these cars (and the QX56/QX70).

How much is labor?

I'll have to shoot my service person an email and see if they'll still go halfsies since I'm only at 118kmi.

I’ll have to see on labor on the M. It was $750 on the QX.

Ilya wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:03 am

EdBwoy wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:53 pm

Thank you.
Keep it on a dose of cleaner and see how much time it buys you. If/when you eventually replace them, you are welcome to donate your old manifolds for research.
How did that work out by the way - you were going to try Cataclean for your P0420/P0430 code, right?

Cataclean didn't help. My light still comes on when it's super cold out, but I'm holding out hope that once old man Winter packs his bags that it'll go off in time for my next inspection lol.

Yeah it's not a one shot application. Depending on the condition of your cats, you'll probably have to run a few bottles spread out over a few months or so. The efficiency threshold limits on these cats are really low, around +/- 3%. When you reach that figure and get the CEL, adding the Cataclean will clean the cats enough to drop you below that number, and clear the code. However, after a while it may creep back up and you have to run another bottle through it. I believe the more you use this product the better job it will do in cleaning your cats enough to get you by until you decide what to do long term. I am basing my opinion on my ongoing experience with using this product. I have used 3 bottles so far. I got my first P0420 code at aound 95k or so. After the first bottle it stayed clear for around 500 miles or so, then it came back. Added second bottle the CEL came back after about 1200 miles but it went out on its own, but came back again a short time later. Added third bottle and so far no CEL. I'm at around 98k right now.

Just my two cents - you read everywhere that cats should last the lifetime of the vehicle, around 100k miles. I call BS on that. Since 1976 I've owned 22 vehicles, one being a 1991 Ford Ranger I bought brand new and put over 240k miles on it, and a couple others that had over 100k miles...I have NEVER had to replace a cat. In my case, what helps me is that I drive a lot of highway miles and not so much start/stop. If you keep your vehicle properly maintained and depending on your driving pattern (not WOT all of the time LOL) you should never have to replace your cats. The catalyst material is pretty much indestructible unless you are using the wrong fuel, racing all the time, sudden impact like bottoming out on a pothole, etc. anything that can cause the material to break apart. I think folks jump the gun when they get a P0420/0430 and OMG I need to replace my cats.

With that said, use your own judgment and assess your situation first. There was mention in a previous post about exhaust and intake valve timing overlap at TDC and BDC and possible engine cylinder scoring resulting from continuous operation with cats whose catalyst materials have broken apart. Newer vehicles use this a means of reducing emissions. Check your cats either by unbolting your exhaust and looking at it or listening for rattling or other noises that might indicate broken apart catalyst material. Given the scope/cost of installing new cats I would definitely try other options first before spending major bucks to replace them. For my personal situation and driving pattern, if adding a bottle of Cataclean every so often keeps me below the threshold limit and stay within specs, I believe I will stay with this option.

That's a good point. Even if it's 3-4 $30 bottles of Cataclean for a few years, it's still cheaper than $3k cat replacement.

I did pick up another bottle to run through. We'll see if it starts to help. I do a LOT of WOT pulls, so my cat may actually be beyond saving or fooling...

So dropped off Monday evening. Got it back after 5pm yesterday. Apparently the M56 header/cat is a pain to do.

Dealership was nice and actually knocked off some of the labor for me. Total labor would have been over $1,300.

Realize this is only 1 side.

Biggie, did you by chance get to see or inspect the old catalytic converter?

Has anyone tried using a spark plug non-fouler on the 02 sensors. I had the P0420 and P0430 codes on my FJ Cruiser, installed the non-foulers and the codes disappeared. Just google P0420 and spark plug defouler for more info.

It's important to remember that making the error code go away does NOT fix the problem of restricted exhaust flow. The CATs will get more and more restrictive and that leads to higher back pressure which causes engine damage. The computer will continue to adjust the fuel / oxygen as much as possible, but after time, it will not be able to correct the mixture and it's time for new CATs plus a new engine. 'Tricking' the engine sensors will buy you some time, but nothing else. If your dealer will share some of the cost, that's an offer you should definitely accept. My dealer gave me a small break in the usual cost, but not much I'm afraid.I was able to save more money by purchasing new CATs direct from the Infiniti Parts Online website and just paying labor at the dealer. I made a thread about the ordeal:
https://forums.nicoclub.com/post6772002 ... T#p6772002

But is the flow actually restricted. In the case of my FJ Cruiser, the code issue was caused by the addition of a cat-back magnaflow system, which caused an increase in exhaust flow. The result was that the front and rear O2 sensor readings were out of spec causing the codes. The addition of the non-foulers corrected the difference with the resulting elimination of the CELs. As I am new to Infiniti, I am not saying this will work. It could be that the cats are indeed clogged and need to be replaced.

Typically, for these codes the catalytic converter isn't clogged, but rather it loses efficiency. Otherwise, you'd run into trouble quick if the engine can't poop out the 5.6 liters of gas it's eating per 2 crank rotations.

The catalyst is set in a honeycomb fashion to allow an increased surface area between the catalyst and exhaust gases. The catalyst (mostly in the presence of heat) will convert the harmful gases in the exhaust stream into relatively inert stuff.
It loses efficiency in 2 ways:
1. The honeycomb gets coated with oils and thus limits the exposure of the catalyst to the exhaust gases = less cleaning up of the gases, and the secondary oxygen sensor alerts to the issue.
2. The honeycomb is broken up due to impact or excessive heat brought up by misfiring conditions most times. This also limits the amount of catalyst the gas sees and the oxygen sensor reports it.

For people with high flow cats, missing cats, or any other mode of reducing the amount of exhaust gas cleaning; some go to the method of tricking the o2 sensors.
Further reading of my opinion on the catalyst system: https://forums.nicoclub.com/post6781190.html#p6781190

Quick question for the people with catalyst issues. How many of you are tuned by/with UpRev?
Either way, I want to lay my hands on a manifold that was diagnosed as being inefficient. We gotta find either the root cause, a simpler/cheaper fix, or both.

I didn’t get a chance to inspect the old cat.

My guess most are just losing efficiency. I heard it’s only with in 3% of new. If more than that it trips the code

I put in another can of cataclean yesterday. Cleared my light and it came back on today. Let's see if it goes away in the next couple of days.

Biggie, Armybrat, do you guys have UpRev? I know Ilya does

EdBwoy wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:06 pm

Typically, for these codes the catalytic converter isn't clogged, but rather it loses efficiency. Otherwise, you'd run into trouble quick if the engine can't poop out the 5.6 liters of gas it's eating per 2 crank rotations.

The catalyst is set in a honeycomb fashion to allow an increased surface area between the catalyst and exhaust gases. The catalyst (mostly in the presence of heat) will convert the harmful gases in the exhaust stream into relatively inert stuff.
It loses efficiency in 2 ways:
1. The honeycomb gets coated with oils and thus limits the exposure of the catalyst to the exhaust gases = less cleaning up of the gases, and the secondary oxygen sensor alerts to the issue.
2. The honeycomb is broken up due to impact or excessive heat brought up by misfiring conditions most times. This also limits the amount of catalyst the gas sees and the oxygen sensor reports it.

For people with high flow cats, missing cats, or any other mode of reducing the amount of exhaust gas cleaning; some go to the method of tricking the o2 sensors.
Further reading of my opinion on the catalyst system: https://forums.nicoclub.com/post6781190.html#p6781190

Quick question for the people with catalyst issues. How many of you are tuned by/with UpRev?
Either way, I want to lay my hands on a manifold that was diagnosed as being inefficient. We gotta find either the root cause, a simpler/cheaper fix, or both.

All of this makes sense. I doubt my CATs were actually 'clogged'. My exhaust had a funky odor and the performance was less than usual. I reckon the substrates were broken down and the flow was restricted enough to cause the -02 sensor to react. I might have been able to wait quite a while before it caused major damage elsewhere.
I've read that CATs usually last about 10 years, and I've also seen some that say they last nearly forever. My M is 10 years old with an avge of 10k miles per year thanks to one or more 3k mile trips up north each year. From the first drive with the mew CATs, The response when I mash the pedal was much improved. No data to prove before and after, just my butt-dyno results. To me, that confirms they needed to be replaced but I will never really know how much longer I could have waited.

EdBwoy wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:59 pm

Biggie, Armybrat, do you guys have UpRev? I know Ilya does

Yes sir Joe tuned my ride around March 2017. Since my earlier post on this thread, my light just came back on. I'm at about 98,500 miles right now. Once my tank gets down to 1/4 full, I will be adding my 4th bottle of Cataclean since 95k miles. Last time I had the exhaust apart the catalyst on both sides looked good, viewing through from the discharge end.

Regarding the P0420's that seems to be popping up lately, just my 2 cents:

I really feel that it's a combination of poor manifold design, valve timing overlap, and burning oil through excess PCV blowby, causing excess build up on the catalyst and possibly the O2 sensors. Of course, driving patterns can also affect cat performance.

I also noticed (from installing dual catch cans) that the driver's side seems to collect more oil than the passenger side, almost twice as much. This would explain the abundance of P0420 codes and lack of P0430 codes.

I agree with Larz in that resetting the codes without doing anything isn't going to fix the problem...however, if adding Cataclean cleans the catalyst enough to drop the efficiency threshold below the set point then I am good with that, for now. It's a short term solution until you decide what to do long term. I guess it would depend on a couple of factors - how long you plan to keep the car, how many miles can you get out of a bottle (at $20 or so/bottle/1000 miles, for example), etc. If you consistently get the code on a regular basis using the cleaner then you will have to decide from there.

If you're having the driver's side replaced, you might as well have the passenger side replaced, while they have the motor jacked up (if you have AWD). That is the biggest part of the labor cost, and you would only pay it once, as opposed to having to do it again if the other side craps out, which would be my luck LOL. RWD does not require motor lifting for passenger side cat replacement.

If you're up to it, have custom headers built with flanges and bolt on aftermarket cats where the secondary cats would normally be.

No uprev for me. I’d like it sometime.

Ok, thanks for the info gents. Useful data points to be collected. At least it doesn't seem like UpRev has a correlation.

armybrat wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:18 am

...
I also noticed (from installing dual catch cans) that the driver's side seems to collect more oil than the passenger side, almost twice as much. This would explain the abundance of P0420 codes and lack of P0430 codes.
...

Interesting observation. How is the health of your PCV valves? Also, would you be able to post a picture of your catch can setup, I'd like to make some airflow and fluid dynamic inferences. [An email with pics would work just as well - EdBwoy at gmail]
Has anyone else with individual catch cans made a similar/contradicting observation about quantity of oil left vs. right?

...I really feel that it's a combination of poor manifold design, valve timing overlap, and burning oil through excess PCV blowby, causing excess build up on the catalyst and possibly the O2 sensors. Of course, driving patterns can also affect cat performance...

Nissan has pretty much maintained the same exhaust manifold design language for all their V8s. The only one that came with the removable primary cat was the 4.1 liter V8 of the 97-01 Q45. I think the lower output of the engine compared to all the others had something to do with it.
Not that the manifolds are perfect, but they've been darn consistent since 1989. A pain to replace the catalyst, but I bet they're pretty effective at doing what they're designed to do.
Talking sedans only, the only time the manifolds seem to have been an issue was in the early VK45DE (2003+ M45 and 2002+ Q45). The left one was very prone to cracking, and less commonly the right one did too. They came out with a redesign that I assume helped.
The 2006+ M45 escaped those random code issues. I haven't gathered too much info on the FX45, but I know they got redesigned manifolds at some point too.
I know early Nissan Titans used to suffer cracked manifolds as well.

So in conclusion, yeah the manifolds might have a design issue - maybe internal, maybe external, or maybe caused further up the pipeline... but someone has to put in some time to figure this thing out.
I am willing to dig in, but I need to get some bad cats first

I had not before run into Cataclean, but then again I tend to ignore all the various snake and unicorn oil automotive products.

A quick lookup of Cataclean's MSDS reveals, that a 16 oz. bottle contains about 50¢ worth of industrial solvents (quite a racket selling that for over $200/gallon) as is usually the case with these "mechanic in a can" elixirs:

It's roughly 50% xylene ($20 a gallon retail at Lowes), 20% isopropyl alcohol (also around $20 a gallon), 20% acetone ($16.44/gal at Walmart, and 10% hydrotreated light petroleum distillate ( a$10 name for mineral spirits==$13.98/gallon at Lowes)--buy this crap in bulk and there's maybe a dollar's worth in a 16 oz bottle of Cataclean:



If your cats are bad they are bad, save your money to buy new ones; or move to Florida where it doesn't matter (no emissions testing).

cliffyk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:52 pm

I had not before run into Cataclean, but then again I tend to ignore all the various snake and unicorn oil automotive products.

A quick lookup of Cataclean's MSDS reveals, that a 16 oz. bottle contains about 50¢ worth of industrial solvents (quite a racket selling that for over $200/gallon) as is usually the case with these "mechanic in a can" elixirs:

It's roughly 50% xylene ($20 a gallon retail at Lowes), 20% isopropyl alcohol (also around $20 a gallon), 20% acetone ($16.44/gal at Walmart, and 10% hydrotreated light petroleum distillate ( a$10 name for mineral spirits==$13.98/gallon at Lowes)--buy this crap in bulk and there's maybe a dollar's worth in a 16 oz bottle of Cataclean:



If your cats are bad they are bad, save your money to buy new ones; or move to Florida where it doesn't matter (no emissions testing).

OMG I got a P420 code, the cats are bad. Gotta head to the dealer and get new ones ASAP LOL...knock yourself out man, I'm sure they'll love to see you. Me, with this particular exhaust system and the high cost of cat replacement, I'm willing to try other alternatives before assuming the cats are bad, even so called "snake and unicorn oil" products. I am not going to debate on this issue; everyone has their own opinions about whether or not they work. As far as Cataclean goes, the SDS product sheet is vague on the exact concentrations, plus the items listed (except maybe the acetone) are not exactly the same products you can get at Lowes, Walmart, etc. You also pay for R&D, testing, marketing, packaging, etc., not just raw ingredients. As far as cost of raw ingredients vs cost at retail, I'm sure you can say the same thing for most packaged products.

I agree, if the cats are truly bad then sure, replace them. Moving to Florida or anywhere else because of an emissions testing requirement is a stupid reason to move, and is not an option for me, plus if your cats are bad, they'll need to be replaced no matter where you live. For my current situation, the Cataclean is doing what it's designed to do. If the catalyst is too clogged or damaged, Cataclean will not help you. If you're hovering at the edge of the threshold limit then it's worth it (to me) to at least give it a try.

I agree with Army. I seriously doubt that using cataclean can damage anything and if I had known about it, I would have tried it. At best, it can buy you time and at worst, it will help confirm that CATs are bad when it fails. I reckon that if you're in a mind to dump the car, using cataclean will keep the sensor from reporting an error at trade-in. I personally wouldn't sell my car to a private party without disclosing anything like this, but for some reason, I wouldn't be bothered to trade it at the dealer. They can repair it at a fraction of what it costs us. OK, so I'm not 100% angel, but parts of me are quite something! LOL

EdBwoy wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:09 pm

...
Interesting observation. How is the health of your PCV valves? Also, would you be able to post a picture of your catch can setup, I'd like to make some airflow and fluid dynamic inferences. [An email with pics would work just as well - EdBwoy at gmail]
Has anyone else with individual catch cans made a similar/contradicting observation about quantity of oil left vs. right?
...

Here's my set up, pretty much symmetrical in terms of placement. PCV valves are good:


Also, here's a front pic of my previous exhaust, with the secondary cats removed and straight pipes welded in. The cat flanges were retained:


Secondary cats...notice the driver's side is larger:


Closeup of driver's side flange...notice the baffle inside the opening. Why is that in place?


Passenger side flange:


Inside shot of the resonator: 1-3/4" diameter across the ID:


I had kept everything but got rid of it all when I upgraded to the mandrel bent set up I am currently running.

cliffyk wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:52 pm

...a 16 oz. bottle contains about 50¢ worth of industrial solvents (quite a racket selling that for over $200/gallon) as is usually the case with these "mechanic in a can" elixirs:

...--buy this crap in bulk and there's maybe a dollar's worth in a 16 oz bottle of Cataclean:
...

Quite funny.
The same observation you make can be said of very many everyday products that are sold pre-mixed; for example fuel (petroleum, detergents,oxygenates etc), engine oil (lubricant, detergent,friction modifiers etc), soda, heck even ketchup. I know what goes into making ketchup but have very minimal interest in taking the time to make the stuff myself. Efficient use of time is one, then space. Not many are interested, knowledgeable, or equipped well enough to buy gallons of chemicals and store it waiting for the next time they are ready to mix it.
Well, I suppose I should speak for myself. Maybe someone else is willing to concoct some Cataclean in their basement. Sounds like it would smell good.

Thanks for the pictures Sir.

Here's my set up, pretty much symmetrical in terms of placement. PCV valves are good:

Looking at your setup, I'm thinking of 3 scenarios on how I'd test for oil collection:

1. Leave the cans and their plumbing as they are, but switch the PCV valves left to right, with minimal disturbance to them (cleaning, rattling etc).
2. Get longer outlet tubes to the cans and switch the left and right outlets. The left can will then breathe/dump into the right side of the intake, vise versa.
3. Plumb both can outlets into a common point, an X-pipe for the catch cans, if that makes sense. (my least favorite option)

These tests are to figure out it the excessive oil is due to the driver side PCV valve being an issue or more of the intake suction characteristics being more aggressive on that side.
It would be infinitely easier, if anyone else who had dual cans told us what they see. Otherwise I wouldn't break a leg to do the experiments unless you were as curious as I am. Just because the left side collects more oil from the PCV system doesn't mean the left exhaust will see more oil.

Secondary cats...notice the driver's side is larger:


Closeup of driver's side flange...notice the baffle inside the opening. Why is that in place?

...
I had kept everything but got rid of it all when I upgraded to the mandrel bent set up I am currently running.

I notice the left one in your picture isn't just larger, but the rear is shaped differently and the outlet is off-center. I wonder if the inside tells a different story, and the quantity of catalyst material is the same. EDIT on 1/22/2019 added at the bottom

Then the flange has a vortex generator/swirl feature. To me, it looks like it's there to enable more accurate reading by the downstream oxygen sensor. Probably tied to the shape of the secondary cat at exit, as well as the difference in design of the exhaust manifolds. [I have attached pictures of them at the bottom. You had posted them earlier]

From your last statement, I'm not clear on whether you have the same flange, or whether it was replaced when you went to the mandrel bent setup.


Driver's side


Passenger side:





EDIT: .
From a picture Ilya had posted, it seems I got the secondary cats mixed up above. It is the left/ passenger/ bank 2 cat that has an offset outlet. Is this the smaller one?

EdBwoy wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:18 am

Thanks for the pictures Sir.

Looking at your setup, I'm thinking of 3 scenarios on how I'd test for oil collection:
...

Thank you for your feedback!

Yes I have thought about rerouting the catch can hoses to see it it would make a diference. I also noticed that the PCV Valves and intake ports are not symmetrical with respect to location on the engine. The driver's side intake port is further back; the PCV valves are mounted in the same location distance wise but angled differently. The driver's side is mounted straight in at a 45°angle towards the valve cover:


...while the passenger side is mounted on a 90°fitting which makes it angled away from the valve cover but orientated in the same direction as the driver's side:


Maybe this arrangement could affect blowby?

The vortex baffle was part of the secondary cat and downstream of the O2 sensor, so I wouldn't think O2 sensors readings would be affected. Actually I could've cut the baffle out since it was rendered moot by the removal of the secondary cats, but I just left it in place. It's gone anyway now since the mandel bent exhaust was a complete turnkey system that bolted directly to the manifolds...sort of. Since it was a RWD exhaust and my car is AWD, I had to lengthen the X-pipe enough to clear the transfer case. I also had to remove the same amount from the duals behind the X-pipe so that the sport mufflers would bolt up. I accomplished this by adding flex connectors to the front, without welding, by using Torctite clamps. Also heat wrapped to mimic factory insulated Y-pipe:


Well thanks again for your input and on a side note, I had mentioned earlier that my CEL light had come back on but once again, it went back out on it's own. This time it never came back on but when I got down to 1/4 tank, I went ahead and added another bottle of Cataclean anyway...so it continues.

Yes I have thought about rerouting the catch can hoses to see it it would make a diference. I also noticed that the PCV Valves and intake ports are not symmetrical with respect to location on the engine..
Maybe this arrangement could affect blowby?

I'll have to go look at my car to compare. I need to better visualize the system.

The vortex baffle was part of the secondary cat and downstream of the O2 sensor, so I wouldn't think O2 sensors readings would be affected. Actually I could've cut the baffle out since it was rendered moot by the removal of the secondary cats, but I just left it in place.

If it was in the flange, then it was only downstream of the primary o2 sensor. It was upstream of the secondary o2 sensor, and will thus play a part in that sensor's readings. Remember it is the secondary oxygen sensor that reports on how healthy the catalytic converters are.
But I don't think Biggie or Ilya have exhaust mods, so I can't confidently point to your exhaust work as the trigger to your code. Still, Infiniti knew/noticed something about the left bank exhaust to have to modify it.

EdBwoy wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:07 pm

Yes I have thought about rerouting the catch can hoses to see it it would make a diference. I also noticed that the PCV Valves and intake ports are not symmetrical with respect to location on the engine..
Maybe this arrangement could affect blowby?

I'll have to go look at my car to compare. I need to better visualize the system.

The vortex baffle was part of the secondary cat and downstream of the O2 sensor, so I wouldn't think O2 sensors readings would be affected. Actually I could've cut the baffle out since it was rendered moot by the removal of the secondary cats, but I just left it in place.

If it was in the flange, then it was only downstream of the primary o2 sensor. It was upstream of the secondary o2 sensor, and will thus play a part in that sensor's readings. Remember it is the secondary oxygen sensor that reports on how healthy the catalytic converters are.
But I don't think Biggie or Ilya have exhaust mods, so I can't confidently point to your exhaust work as the trigger to your code. Still, Infiniti knew/noticed something about the left bank exhaust to have to modify it.

Good catch! I meant to say that the second cats are downstream of the O2 sensors. IMHO removing those wouldn't affect anything emissions wise...however, the flange with the baffle is before the sensor like you pointed out - you might be on to something there. I've never pulled any O2 codes; just the P0420. The firing order is 1-8-7-3-6-5-4-2. The exhaust pulses are not in order on the left bank, per se. The right bank fires 8-6-4-2 while the left bank fires 1-7-3-5. From your drawing it looks like the manifold tubing routing has something to do with this, and that's why they are different. Maybe the baffle helps to balance the exhaust pulses somehow. Could also have something to do with VVEL on the left bank. I found some good engine specs here:

https://www.engine-specs.net/nissan/vk56vd.html

Might be able to glean something from there.