how to supercharge a ca18det?

[ska69]

Hi everyone,

Lately I can't get one idiotic idea out of my head - supercharging a ca18det . Well, to be more precise - converting it to a CA18DER. Mainly for 5 reasons:

1. A new t28 (or similar) turbo costs ~ 800$ at my door. And I really don't want to spend that much on a turbo .
2. It's an unusual setup and I want my project to be a little unique.
3. I believe there won't be any turbo lag in that case.
4. No need for an intercooler (no so sure about this one).
5. It should be fun and provide 200-250hp at all times.

I know I can be wrong with my conclusions but I want to give this idea a try anyways.

So my questions to the CA and nico community are:

1. Is this possible?
2. Where and how to mount the charger?
3. Any obstacles with the installation process?
4. Any drawbacks?
5. Which charger to use?

I'm open for discussion. Any feedback and comments are appreciated.

[blownhemi]

1. Cheaper than a turbo? I don't think so. They cost around the same used, and around the same new. Plus all the brackets and piping, and a pulley for the SC. I wouldn't even know what pulley to drive it from, but I don't see how the stock crank pulley could be used, and anything else is $$$. A T28 would be plug-and-play.
2. Unique, or at least, definitely rare. I don't think that in 2010 there is anything someone somewhere hasn't yet done to their engines.
3. Definitely no turbo lag, since there's no turbo . But superchargers don't provide a flat torque curve either. Well, at least a Roots doesn't, it works at mid-high RPM, so the same as a properly sized turbo. Lysholms work low-mid-high, and take away less torque, than a Roots, but a Lysholm is $$$.
4. I wouldn't dump the intercooler with a Roots.
5. Can be made with a T28 easily, with barely any turbo lag.

In general, I think *unique* and *cheap* largely contradict each other.

[ska69]

I have to admit you have a point there I guess I should just find a decent priced T28 and stick with that?

All I want is a nice reliable engine and thought that the SC could be the answer to it.

[grasshopperps13]

bloody great idea i reckon as it is the same idea iv had....the sc14 supercharger of the toyota 2ggze motor are perfect for this and mount on the same bracket as the aircon! they are dirt cheap aswell( i picked one up for $390 on ebay) the hard part is getting the right setup, mostly custom made!.
though an intercooler is recommended it is not needed unless boosting over 6 or 7 psi which you will want to do to get to desired hp.....the only other charger i would recommend is a vortec though the cost of one of these will be 1000- 5000 so the sc14 is the best choice for a budget build....then its just a matter of sticking to the same principles as a turbo motor(injectors,pump,possibly pistons,rods,bolts and bearings...ect)
you will also need a bypass valve on the intake to control boost and for idle..and then a nistune duaghter board or after market ecm and get a good tune.......thats my plan i still need to do some more research to figure some things out......dont give up and slap a turbo on give it a go its not as expensive as the turbo option and the sc14 will give you a nice linear curve from idle up ....cheers

[ska69]

What about the mercedes compressor? Iirc they use eaton m45 or m62.

So, SC = no AC? I'd like to keep the AC, as the car is going to be used only in the summer, and the summers here are hooot

have you got any pics of your install process?

[blownhemi]

Somewhere in here is a link to a Miata forum about supercharging 1.8ls. It should probably help you with the supercharger selection, maybe even drive pulley options, but an M62 off a Merc SLK 230 Kompressor is probably about right. Not sure, but I think those also have an electric clutch. So if you put the SC in place of the A/C compressor, instead of the A/C switch, you'll have a MORE POWER switch .
By the way, google and youtube list quite a few matches for "supercharge(r/d) CA18DET". Although it's mostly twincharged CA's in Datsuns, it might give you some ideas about SC placement and piping layout.

But it's much more work (and probably cost) to make everything fit, than a T2x turbo, which you already have everything for (hopefully). No chance to get that Skyline turbo you have on now repaired? I can get a rebuild here for about $150, shouldn't cost much more around there, unless there are no turbo rebuild shops near you. Do you know what type of turbo it is? If you post pics, someone on here may be able to identify it, and tell if it's the right turbo for your goals.

As for reliable, a good condition turbo is just as reliable as a supercharger.

[ska69]

it's a skyline r33 rb25/rb20 turbo with a T3 flange (that's what I was told by the previous owner) and later on I was told that it's a dead turbo, which I really have no clue how to check. I can probably remove it from the engine and have it checked by some other SX owners in the area. Regarding rebuild shops - we have only one and they charge around 300-350$ for a rebuild.

I still can't figure out what I want more - the AC or a supercharger...even though my A/C is also dead

I've seen those twincharged projects, but thats the main problem - they are twincharged But you're right they could have some placement ideas.

http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=257391 - thanks for these pics! It seems pretty much easy to install

Here's another one - http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showpost.php?p= ... ostcount=7 that's the location for the SC that I like the most

[ska69]

As for reliable, a good condition turbo is just as reliable as a supercharger.

I may just go with that - a new s14/s15 turbo without pushing it to the limits, but...I can't get the SC idea out of my head...I even see it when I'm asleep

[blownhemi]

it's a skyline r33 rb25/rb20 turbo with a T3 flange (that's what I was told by the previous owner) and later on I was told that it's a dead turbo, which I really have no clue how to check. I can probably remove it from the engine and have it checked by some other SX owners in the area. Regarding rebuild shops - we have only one and they charge around 300-350$ for a rebuild.

T3 flange? What kind of manifold is it on? Stock cast iron, with an adapter on it? Or a top-mount aftermarket mani?

Oops, I just remembered, there's something about the Skyline turbos not being very reliable at higher speeds, they have ball bearings with ceramic balls in it. Because of the ball bearings, they are not rebuildable. They have ceramic turbine blades, too, iirc. In any case, they are weak, and not supposed to last long when run with increased boost (~15psi). So definitely not worth rebuilding for $300, even if they are actually rebuildable.

[ska69]

it's a skyline r33 rb25/rb20 turbo with a T3 flange (that's what I was told by the previous owner) and later on I was told that it's a dead turbo, which I really have no clue how to check. I can probably remove it from the engine and have it checked by some other SX owners in the area. Regarding rebuild shops - we have only one and they charge around 300-350$ for a rebuild.

T3 flange? What kind of manifold is it on? Stock cast iron, with an adapter on it? Or a top-mount aftermarket mani?

it has some kind of custom adapter Anyway, I have a custom manifold waiting, which btw, I don't know why I purchased if the stock one is good for up to 300hp

[ska69]

So please, help me out with the supercharger idea

[blownhemi]

So please, help me out with the supercharger idea

I'm sure if you go the SC way, it won't be cheap. You may do cost calculations beforehand, and it might come out the same as a turbo, but since there is not a lot of experience or info about an SC setup, you're likely to run into unexpected problems (=costs). Turboing is much more clear cut.
What you can be sure of, there'll be some fabrication involved, so if you're not comfortable with powertools and welding, or have someone close, who can weld stuff for you for cheap, I'd think twice about it. Depending on what supercharger you choose, you may have to have some flanges made by a CNC shop. Also a pulley for the SC, if the drive ratio between your crank/SC pulley doesn't drive the SC at the right speed for the power you'd like to make.

Found this for you in the meantime: further down the page, dyno graph of a CA18 with the Eaton M45. Talk about linear power delivery... No less than 200Nm's from 2000RPM to redline. 250Nm's between 3000-5000. Only 200 whp peak, but it certainly looks like a fun little street machine. Damn, I just might have found a new project for my spare engine. (gotta get the built turbo engine running first, though...)
Some more info from probably the same guy.

[ska69]

blownhemi, thanks for the links. Will look into them tonight

as for the S/C - I'm thinking of going with the SC14 toyota sc mounted instead of the A/C as my A/C is broken. This should be the easiest way, as I don't have to cut&weld the intake manifold. I'm thinking of using silicone couplers and some fmic piping for connecting the S/C to the intake. It should hold, as the sc14 makes around 6 psi (0.4 bar).

The S/C will cost me 320-500USD depending on what it available right now...and the turbo setup is around 1200 and up unless I get a used turbo.
So I need to figure out the pulley issue - would it be possible to connect it in a similar fashion to the a/c setup?

As for my engine management I have decide a long time ago to go with megasquirt, should be easier to configure everything in that case.

[ska69]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... INDXX%3AIT and this for the bypass valve

[ska69]

[blownhemi]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... INDXX%3AIT and this for the bypass valve

You can save this money (and shipping), if you go with the Merc M45 mentioned in the links above, those have the bypass valve built in. It's electric, though, but the eng-tips discussion seemed like it is about using the built-in bypass valve.
Another link, about the same guy, he mentions part numbers. (all these link about the same guy came up googling "CA18DET eaton m45", btw...)
Are you planning to get the SC14 from a local junkyard, or order it online?

[ska69]

I couldn't find any local..tried the merc. m45 but no luck

the sc14 I can source either from Russia or from ebay. these are my options.

[grasshopperps13]

i will be using an alternater pully off a pintara ca20 motor....the info i have got is that the sc14 will spin up to 12500 rpm effectively(8-12 pound of boost roughly) any thing after that is hot air and sc destruction mode !!!!! i also plan on changing the rotors to make upwards of 20 pounds boost!!!! parts are cheap here in australia and fabrication is as cheap as a carton of beer!!!!!( dont you love beer economy....lol)or around 450 aud for a custom mild steel setup....(beer is cheaper so i will pay with beer) i will be using a nistune board to get tune, a bypass valve, intercooler, some fab pipping and a step out for the power steering pump..this is all i will need and will cost me around 1000 -1500 to make it work i will however be spending another 2000 on the block(forged pistons rods acl and arp everything) and mating surfaces to it and the head and push the hell out of the sc with diff rotors to make as much boost as i can.....the built ca can handle more than what the sc could throw at it so it will be a torque monster with plenty of hp and still reliable as a daily/drifter

[ska69]

what's a pintara? and is it possible to source all these parts through ebay or somewhat other market place?

I was also thinking of removing the Power steering pump & installing an electric one.

I don't need that much boost (i guess/hope) that 0.6 bar will be enough for 200-220rwhp.

[DEEPfrom1]

Buy my GT28R! You'll love it!

[ska69]

do not offtop please. lol

any other sc ideas?

[blownhemi]

what's a pintara? and is it possible to source all these parts through ebay or somewhat other market place?

I was also thinking of removing the Power steering pump & installing an electric one.

I don't need that much boost (i guess/hope) that 0.6 bar will be enough for 200-220rwhp.

For that power my guess is you'll need more like 1 bar of boost. Stock boost w/ stock turbo is 0.7bar, and that's enough for ~160 whp. A used Roots-type SC has roughly about the same adiabatic efficency. Although the SC will probably transport a larger volume of air, but it also costs your engine more power to drive the SC, than to drive a turbo.

any other sc ideas?

Not for this engine, no.

[ska69]

blownhemi, that's pretty much what I was thinking these days..

I guess I shall be going with a turbo then Unless I get an S/C very cheap ))

[float_6969]

What about the m62 from the later mercedes? It's a little big for the 200whp range, but should be good for 250-300whp. It also has an electric clutch, twisted rotors (should be much quiter), and should be easier to source, as they were more common.

[ska69]

What about the m62 from the later mercedes? It's a little big for the 200whp range, but should be good for 250-300whp. It also has an electric clutch, twisted rotors (should be much quiter), and should be easier to source, as they were more common.

that was my second option yet, I don't know...I want to keep the A/C, well, at least have the option to have it installed later, so I don't know where to mount the s/c. Would be great to mount it either near the a/c (easiest option, imo) or to mount it through a bracket directly to the intake manifold, just like on ka24 (true-pig-build-t317694-400.html) but I'm not sure if that's possible with ca18det manifold. Any ideas?

I still have lots of time to make a decision between s/c or turbo

[float_6969]

Honestly, I have an M62 from a mercedes that is in good shape that I picked up for cheap. I have poked it all around the motor, and if you want to keep the A/C, the only place it will fit is where the P/S pump is at. You can use an electric pump from an MR2 and still have power steering. This was with a turbo manifold on the exhaust side. If you had headers, you might have more room, but I doubt it. It's a tight fit regardless, but I think it's quite do-able. The other problem is a crank pulley. I have a Ross Race balancer, so I have bolts right on the front that would allow me to mount a pulley easily. With the stock crank pulley, IDK where you're going to mount a pulley to as the M62 (and M45 IIRC) run multi-rib belts unlike the v-belt design of the sc12.

[ska69]

decided to give another shot at this idea

So if the m62 will be mounted instead of the p/s, what are modifications may be required?

[float_6969]

Remember, this is an M62 from a Mercedes Benz SLK 230. This is important because this supercharger is VERY short. There is basically no snout whatsoever. It also has an electric clutch, like the A/C to switch it on an off if you want.

I would still plan on intercooling, probably a liquid to air unit to maximize the throttle response the S/C gives.

You'll need to sort out fitting a hydro-electric P/S pump from an MR2, preferably the 3rd gens, as the electroncs, pump, reserviour, etc are all in one piece. I made the mistake of getting the setup from the 2nd gen and I've got stuff I'm going to have to mount everywhere now.

You'll need to have something made for the crank pulley. Talk to your local machine shops. Anybody with a big lathe should be able to make a pulley for you. I've been thinking about it, and you might be able to modify the stock pulley so that the S/C pulley could be mounted to the end of it. This would be best so that you could have different sized pulleys for different boost.

Once you've got the crank pulley made, you'll need to build a bracket to hold the S/C. I would HIGHLY recommend planning on having an automatic tensioner bolted to the bracket somehow. This will make your life much easier later down the road, as you'll be quite surprised at how quickly the belt will stretch, especially at higher boost levels.

The M62 should be good for about 12-14psi. Anymore than that and it's horribly inefficient. It's really not very efficient at those boost levels, but honestly, it's not really gonna be worth the trouble if you run less than that. I'm not gonna do the math for you, but you'll need to know the diameter of the pulley on the S/C, the boost you want to run, the displacement of your engine, and the displacement of the S/C, to know what size the crank pulley will need to be. Google it and do some research, the info is out there.

[ska69]

float, thanks Now I have what to think about

what about the engine internals, can I leave them stock or will I need to get forged stuff and some other tuned brands?

[ska69]

can any eaton m62 be used?

are there any advantages of the SLK m62 comparing to other m62's out there?

I do understand that the SLK one has a clutch whilst others don't but have a bypass valve...