How much camber is too much?

[Nismo_Freak]

If you've adjusted camber, there is a corresponding change in toe as well.

[Q45tech]

Don't assume that only the front counts as thrust angle [toe] of the rear can steer you off the road just the same.

Didn't matter much with old fashioned solid rear axle but IRS is a whole new ball game.

Tire conicity* is something an alignment rack can't measure and excessive camber will [may] cause the tires to shift internally, making for interesting steering after a rotation.

http://members.aol.com/carleyw...2.htmh ... r50244.htm

Amazing how little the average owner knows about tires.

Tire manufacturers like it that way.

[Q45tech]

Static alignment doesn't mean a thing since the tires won't wear sitting still! All that counts is what are the true numbers rolling down the road.............a very difficult thing to measure without tens of thousands in equipment.

You can learn a lot by reading tire temperatures, unfortunately tire surface temps cool fast so you have a minute after the stop [which of course changes the readings and fools you]..........3 multiple IR sensors focused on the different parts of tread allow measurements while driving is how the factory does it.........to come up with initial aligment specs.......for 60 mph straight ahead driving.

[Nismo_Freak]

You can learn a lot by reading tire temperatures

:poke

Isn't that what I've been saying from the beginning...

[j-z]

i know that toe is affected when camber is changed. i measured the toe of the car after i dropped it on its nuts and it was fine. plus its been pulling the same way since i bought it with stock suspension. i think the mount for the tension rod where it bolts to the body is ****ed up. like its bent up from bottoming out and i think it may have thrown the caster off a bit. thats the reason why i think thats what it is.

[Nismo_Freak]

i know that toe is affected when camber is changed. i measured the toe of the car after i dropped it on its nuts and it was fine. plus its been pulling the same way since i bought it with stock suspension. i think the mount for the tension rod where it bolts to the body is ****ed up. like its bent up from bottoming out and i think it may have thrown the caster off a bit. thats the reason why i think thats what it is.

I'd suggest a Nismo power bar.

[j-z]

info?

[Nismo_Freak]

Pic on http://www.splparts.com

[#RealRiceGSR#]

Darius. Please change and update your e-mail address, it is getting invalid hits.

[spitz7985]

Hahhaha... I'd still rather have IRS w/ horrible camber gain than solid axle (solid axle ... verrrrry bad)

Solid axles have their place in racing. With a properly set up solid axle suspension, you can get over 100% anti squat (meaning the back of the car actually lifts instead of squats with hard acceleration). IRS you are limited to something like 25%. But, this is a handling thread/forum not a drag forum. Just thought I'd drop that bit of info.

[Nismo_Freak]

Solid axles have their place in racing. With a properly set up solid axle suspension, you can get over 100% anti squat (meaning the back of the car actually lifts instead of squats with hard acceleration). IRS you are limited to something like 25%. But, this is a handling thread/forum not a drag forum. Just thought I'd drop that bit of info.

Solid axle is crap... why do you think the Cobra has IRS, why do you think the C5 has IRS. Solid axle means the entire axle is unsprung weight, including the 100+ lb. differential carrier. There is no gain in camber in the rear and the toe is static as a result.

Solid axle has no place in road racing.

[j-z]

^^ i totally agree with you

[chmercer]

err, why would you want the rear end to lift if you were doing drag racing?

another question that isnt deserving enough of its own thread.

right now i am running -2/-1 f/r camber and zero toe all around. i chewed the **** out of my front tires, the outside side is just about bald and the inside is almost on the wear bar, so i was thinking about adding another degree to the front, but should i go even higher? or is this tire wear pattern somthing different and i should leave my camber alone?

also on the rears, they went bald before i even noticed the wear pattern so i really have no idea how they are wearing. is -1 good in the back? i dont want it to grip too good but i dont want it sliding all over the place. if it sticks too much i can just stiffen the shocks i suppose.

any feedback? thanks guys

[spitz7985]

Solid axle is crap... why do you think the Cobra has IRS, why do you think the C5 has IRS. Solid axle means the entire axle is unsprung weight, including the 100+ lb. differential carrier. There is no gain in camber in the rear and the toe is static as a result.

Solid axle has no place in road racing.

\

Okay....not really sure why you felt you needed to say that when I said that I was talking about drag racing.

[spitz7985]

err, why would you want the rear end to lift if you were doing drag racing?

Think about what's happening when there is so much anti-squat built into a drag car that the car leans forward when accelerating.

Its all about traction on the rear wheels. If the rear of the car raises during acceleration, the car is pushing the rear wheels down on the pavement, putting more weight on the rear tires. The amount of traction from a tire increases as the weight on the tire increases (the two are not directly proportional, however).

[spitz7985]

right now i am running -2/-1 f/r camber and zero toe all around. i chewed the **** out of my front tires, the outside side is just about bald and the inside is almost on the wear bar, so i was thinking about adding another degree to the front, but should i go even higher? or is this tire wear pattern somthing different and i should leave my camber alone?

What tire pressure are you running and what's the maximum pressure rating for the tire?

[chmercer]

oh, i would think that the rear squatting down would get you more grip since the weight is lower to the ground, but i dont know anything about drag racing.

I put them at 35 psi originally, later in the day i checked them and they were up to 42, let it back down to 35, later on again they were up to 39, let it back down.

[spitz7985]

Are these tires you use daily? When you say later in the day the pressure rose twice, were u racing that day?

Here's what I'm thinking, when the tires were cold you set them at 35psi, then after a day of racing they got hot (hotter=higher pressure) so you lowered the pressure again. Then you drove home, car sat, tires cooled, pressure ended up way low, and you drove that way for a while. Both edges scrubbed can indicate too low of pressure.

[chmercer]

yea this is at a drift track. i aired them all to 35 before i left, they couldve cooled down but i would think the temperature wouldntve gone down much since its a 250 mile drive. but even if the pressure was way low, why would the outside be bald and the inside have tread, cause i know i dont have positive camber

[spitz7985]

Wait, I thought u said both edges of each front tire were worn but the middle wasn't worn as much...?

"i chewed the **** out of my front tires, the outside side is just about bald and the inside is almost on the wear bar"

[C-Kwik]

Solid axles have their place in racing. With a properly set up solid axle suspension, you can get over 100% anti squat (meaning the back of the car actually lifts instead of squats with hard acceleration). IRS you are limited to something like 25%. But, this is a handling thread/forum not a drag forum. Just thought I'd drop that bit of info.

Solid axles have a tendency to want to lift one wheel and push down on the other. Especially when there is a lot of power. IRS suspensions do not have this problem at all as the 3rd member is bolted to the subframe which is bolted to the chassis. This isolates the torque much better. It may even prove to be a little more efficient. While the subframe may flex some under high load, it will not lift one side of the car higher than the other. This problem can cause even more issues on a road course.

[C-Kwik]

yea this is at a drift track. i aired them all to 35 before i left, they couldve cooled down but i would think the temperature wouldntve gone down much since its a 250 mile drive. but even if the pressure was way low, why would the outside be bald and the inside have tread, cause i know i dont have positive camber

Lateral loads on a tire on most suspensions will put the highest load on the outer edge of the tires. Keep in mind you have to factor in body roll when thinking about camber. While you likely have some negative camber at all 4 wheels, at rest(static camber), under lateral load, the car leans. Most cars tend to end up with less dynamic camber(the camber the tires see during a turn) since the car is leaning, taking up some of the static camber. Struts are notorious for this as they use a single lower arm and a fixed upper position. Double wishbone and it's multi-link variants are better at reducing this effect as it has some camber gain with compression, but dynamically, the camber usually does end up being less than static in most cars and suspension designs.

There are a couple ways to reduce this effect. Reduce body roll. This helps minimize dynamic changes in camber. The less the body rolls, the less the tires lean with the car. The other is to add more static camber. I'd try to reduce body roll first. Dialing in more static camber will put more load on the inner treads during braking and acceleration and have less grip available for both as well. But do keep in mind you don't want to be overly stiff on the body roll if it's a street car. It will make for a harsher ride and you do lose some of the independence of the independent suspension.

[chmercer]

Wait, I thought u said both edges of each front tire were worn but the middle wasn't worn as much...?

"i chewed the **** out of my front tires, the outside side is just about bald and the inside is almost on the wear bar"

yes, as in the outside edge is pretty much smooth, the inside still has street legal tread. sorry if i wasnt clear.

[chmercer]

Lateral loads on a tire on most suspensions will put the highest load on the outer edge of the tires. Keep in mind you have to factor in body roll when thinking about camber. While you likely have some negative camber at all 4 wheels, at rest(static camber), under lateral load, the car leans. Most cars tend to end up with less dynamic camber(the camber the tires see during a turn) since the car is leaning, taking up some of the static camber. Struts are notorious for this as they use a single lower arm and a fixed upper position. Double wishbone and it's multi-link variants are better at reducing this effect as it has some camber gain with compression, but dynamically, the camber usually does end up being less than static in most cars and suspension designs.

There are a couple ways to reduce this effect. Reduce body roll. This helps minimize dynamic changes in camber. The less the body rolls, the less the tires lean with the car. The other is to add more static camber. I'd try to reduce body roll first. Dialing in more static camber will put more load on the inner treads during braking and acceleration and have less grip available for both as well. But do keep in mind you don't want to be overly stiff on the body roll if it's a street car. It will make for a harsher ride and you do lose some of the independence of the independent suspension.

i have 8kgf/mm front 6 rear. swaybars are still stock tho. no strut braces. *shrug*

[Nismo_Freak]

i have 8kgf/mm front 6 rear. swaybars are still stock tho. no strut braces. *shrug*

Your car is too low.

And you need to order carbing strut bars from SPL Parts because they are the best out on the market.

[chmercer]

ahh man i raised it up a ton since last time you saw it, the back is like 5 threads from max height lol. there is about 2 fingers of fender gap on the stock sized wheels and tires.

yea carbing is sweet, tell me if you have any luck working the price, i would be all over that.