How much camber is too much?

[unfrgivn]

Right now I have the rear camber adjusted to -2.6 which is as low as it will go (close to 0). I know a little negative camber in the rear can be good for certain applications, but how much do I want for mostly daily driving with a few road course events a year?

[Darius]

I wouldn't go much over -1.5 for daily driving because you'll start to get uneven tire wear. I had my fronts on my other car at -3 for three summers and the inner 2" of the tires wore down to 1/16" of tread while the rest of the tread was fine.

[keepingthe240]

Right now I have the rear camber adjusted to -2.6 which is as low as it will go (close to 0). I know a little negative camber in the rear can be good for certain applications, but how much do I want for mostly daily driving with a few road course events a year?

How much of a drop do you have?? <-what springs or are you using coil overs?? I have tein s-tech and i got ahold of some rear camber bushings. One set of the bushing will correct 0.75. I'm trying to figure if i even need them. S-tech give less then 1 inch drop.

[Def]

If you never actually push the car(i.e. the tire will not be rolling over and evening out wear), then -1.5* is a good compromise. Make sure the toe is set at ZERO on the front tires, as any toe will scrub the inside fronts to death. Zero toe up front also gives a crisp turn in and a little more grip at the limit than toe-in that is typically run.

For the rears, try to run -1 to -1.5* or so and a very slight amount of toe-in. Maybe 1/8" total or going to 3/16" total if you want a little more stability(total means both sides added together btw).

These are good all around alignment settings for RWD, MacPherson strut front and multilink rear cars.

[Q45tech]

The problem with alignment specs is they are static misalignment numbers to attempt to create ZERO toe [at straight ahead 60 mph cruise] and at most negative 0.5 degree camber under cornering load with brand new bushings. Unfortunately used old bushings CHANGE with age.

IRS have toe compensation to toe in under deceleration [and more with serious braking].........to enhance braking.

Finding the right presets to turn out right is a challange.

Tires are designed for differening degrees of static camber most middle range like 0.5 degrees negative but you must know the roll couple camber correction curves of your suspension.

Agree 1-1.5 degree negative camber on rear is a good range with new bushings.

[Nismo_Freak]

Right now I have the rear camber adjusted to -2.6 which is as low as it will go (close to 0). I know a little negative camber in the rear can be good for certain applications, but how much do I want for mostly daily driving with a few road course events a year?

There are only 2 ideal setups for camber.

1 - Maximum Road Handling2 - Tire Wear Prevention

One or the other, it's a sacrifice. The only way to predict the ideal amount of camber is by taking tire temperature data. Not even pouring over hours and hours of suspension compression data can give you the accuracy that good tire readings will. Because while you can predict how the suspension will compress and thus bump, you can't predict the course conditions.

[Def]

I've actually found that the optimal camber settings for street tires(-2 to -2.5* usually) and zero toe really don't wear the insides of the tires much if you are actually pushing the car to the limits of grip at least some of the time(autocross, road course). No matter how fast you think you drive on the street, there is absolutely no way you can get meaningful outside tire wear with all the straightline driving(mountain runs excluded).

So if you just cruise down the interstate, give up a little grip in the corners for tire life for YOUR driving. If you actually push the car, you can get even wear across the tread with up to -3* of camber on an MacPherson strut car and zero toe. The zero toe part is very important, because even 1/8" total toe in up front will chew up the insides of your tires very quickly with that much camber.

BTW - optimal camber settings differ depending on the tire used. The stiffer the carcass of the tire, the less that is needed. Yet the stickier the tread compound is, the more that is needed. That is why R-compound tires, even though they have a VERY stiff carcass, need alot of negative camber. They're just that grippy compared to a street tire.

[Nismo_Freak]

I've actually found that the optimal camber settings for street tires(-2 to -2.5* usually) and zero toe really don't wear the insides of the tires much if you are actually pushing the car to the limits of grip at least some of the time(autocross, road course). No matter how fast you think you drive on the street, there is absolutely no way you can get meaningful outside tire wear with all the straightline driving(mountain runs excluded).

So if you just cruise down the interstate, give up a little grip in the corners for tire life for YOUR driving. If you actually push the car, you can get even wear across the tread with up to -3* of camber on an MacPherson strut car and zero toe. The zero toe part is very important, because even 1/8" total toe in up front will chew up the insides of your tires very quickly with that much camber.

BTW - optimal camber settings differ depending on the tire used. The stiffer the carcass of the tire, the less that is needed. Yet the stickier the tread compound is, the more that is needed. That is why R-compound tires, even though they have a VERY stiff carcass, need alot of negative camber. They're just that grippy compared to a street tire.

You can't compare one car's ideal camber to another.. you can't even compare my ideal camber settings to your car. Simply put we have different dynamics.

[unfrgivn]

Thanks for all of the responses guys.

Ok well w/o correction bushings I can only get it to -2.6 in the rear. I have D2 coilovers with a 2-3 inch drop (closer to 2 I think). I really don't know a ton about suspension cause I'm more of an engine/mechanics/electronics guy, but I'm trying to learn. Mind you I do a lot of straight line driving, but these are only 1/2 year tires (march - october), but I also do autoxing and will be doing some road racing this summer.

[Def]

You can't compare one car's ideal camber to another.. you can't even compare my ideal camber settings to your car. Simply put we have different dynamics.

...that's why I mentioned how one is using their car as a rough guide to how much camber is "acceptable."

We're both saying the same thing.

[Q45tech]

My comments concerning 0.5 negative camber is what the tire wants to see! it is not the tires fault that the suspension camber gain curve is so sloppy or non existent that you have to preset so much extra negative camber to make it right under load.

http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/suspension.html

[Nismo_Freak]

My comments concerning 0.5 negative camber is what the tire wants to see! it is not the tires fault that the suspension camber gain curve is so sloppy or non existent that you have to preset so much extra negative camber to make it right under load.

http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/suspension.html

Hahhaha... I'd still rather have IRS w/ horrible camber gain than solid axle (solid axle ... verrrrry bad)

[Nismo_Freak]

Thanks for all of the responses guys.

Ok well w/o correction bushings I can only get it to -2.6 in the rear. I have D2 coilovers with a 2-3 inch drop (closer to 2 I think). I really don't know a ton about suspension cause I'm more of an engine/mechanics/electronics guy, but I'm trying to learn. Mind you I do a lot of straight line driving, but these are only 1/2 year tires (march - october), but I also do autoxing and will be doing some road racing this summer.

When you go racing invest in a pyrometer, I would suggest the needle type pyrometer's because they test actual tire temps rather than tire surface temps (by the time you get to test the tire the surface will have cooled faster than the inner tread).

Setup the suspension before you go to the event, and have the car aligned. Go to the event and do not change the suspension settings (as you have no way to change toe after you change the bump). Report your temps here on the board and I will make some recommendations as to what you can change or what the car is doing. Also feel free to have the more experienced drivers have a look at the temps and they can tell you what you might try.

[Def]

Hahhaha... I'd still rather have IRS w/ horrible camber gain than solid axle (solid axle ... verrrrry bad)

The 5 pt multilink in the rear is just fine as far as camber gain goes.

The MacPherson strut suspension up front is what Q45Tech is talking about. It is very compact, but the camber gain is pretty poor for hard driving.

BTW - most of those "solid axle" cars have superior double A-arm suspension setups up front.

[Nismo_Freak]

The 5 pt multilink in the rear is just fine as far as camber gain goes.

The MacPherson strut suspension up front is what Q45Tech is talking about. It is very compact, but the camber gain is pretty poor for hard driving.

BTW - most of those "solid axle" cars have superior double A-arm suspension setups up front.

A superior double arm setup in the front does little to make up the fact that the rear suspension is solid crap.

And yes I was aware of what he is talking about but the rear still also does gain camber quickly because of it's poor spring rate and the weight transfer. Look at a picture of a stock suspension 240 cornering and the camber is equally horrid front to rear and generally the cars have alot of squat in the rear when you push them vs. diving.

And with a 2 deg. static front camber setup I have noted pretty even tire temps with my suspension setup using Falken Azenis tires.

[j-z]

ok, im glad this thread is here. im no suspension expert by all means. can someone that has more in-depth knowledge about suspension tuning than i do help me set my car up for auto-x events? i have the d2 full coil overs and adjustabe RUCAs. i know how to adjust everything like the camber, toe, and dampening etc., but im not sure what the ideal settings are for auto-x. right now i have steelies with big balloon tires that are good for nothing, but that will change shortly once i pick up a set of cheap 16x7 rims from a friend. the tire size i plan on running is 215-45 on all fours. this car is my daily driver so i want as even of a tire wear as i can. im getting some basic info from what ive already read, but would like specifics. i have a book with me that was copyrighted back in 81 and i dont wanna rely too much on what this book is going by because some of it doesnt make too much sense. i would like a neutral balance of handling for my car, so if someone can point me in the right direction of giving me a run down on how i should set everything up that would be awesome. basically i can adjust the toe upfront (how do you adjust the toe for the rear on these things, if they even are adjustable from the factory), the camber for both the front and rear to almost an unlimited amount needed, and the dampening of the shocks to an unlimited amount. sorry if it sounds like im jacking your post, but it was already here and on the subject, and i think quite a few of us can benefit from some specified suspension setup info.

[C-Kwik]

Realistically, that is just too broad to answer. It really just depends on how your car handles. There is really no one answer to building a great handling car. And on a forum like this, with so many different variations of parts, there are too many different variables to consider. Race cars can be set-up pretty consistently each time, but they work with a known set of variables for the most part. And even then, they end up having to make adjustments during a race.

As far as recommended reading, try "High Performance Handling Handbook" by Don Alexander. Written in a similar context as Maximum Boost where it is thorough yet easy to understand. It's not going to make you a handling genious, but will start you off in the right direction.

[j-z]

i understand. a good baseline guideline would be nice to get me started for now. like do i want more negative camber up front than the rear or what? you know basic stuff like that with some numbers to go by. thanks

[Nismo_Freak]

i understand. a good baseline guideline would be nice to get me started for now. like do i want more negative camber up front than the rear or what? you know basic stuff like that with some numbers to go by. thanks

There is no magic number for a setup... you have to do a test and tune. If the F1 Ferrari team has to do test and tune, you have to do test and tune. Plain and simple, this is the ONLY method.

For anyone to even comprehend your setup they would need to know this:

- Exact to the mm, ride height differentiation - Corner weights at all 4 corners along with a cross weight % with given race weight - Sway bar thickness, and condition of endlinks- Condition of each individual bushing in the front and rear suspension- Rear subframe alignment specs- Front suspension style- Front caster- Front camber- Front toe- Front tire size- Front tire sidewall construction- Front tire condition- Front tire cold air pressure- Front tire hot air pressure- Front tire load index- Front tire wear pattern analysis- Front tire compound thermal efficiency range- Front track- Length of front lower control arm for roll center analysis- Front spring rate - Front spring length- Front spring preload- Front sway bar preload- Chassis reinforcement and flex- Component slippage (did you torque all the bolts correctly?)- Front dampening rate- Rear suspension style- Rear dampening rate- Rear spring rate- Rear spring preload- Rear toe- Rear camber- Rear track- Rear tire size- Rear tire sidewall construction- Rear tire condition- Rear tire cold air pressure- Rear tire hot air pressure- Rear tire load index- Rear tire wear pattern analysis- Rear tire compound thermal efficiency range

And probably a number of other things I can't remember or don't yet comprehend.

[keepingthe240]

I've got a question...and i didn't want to start a new thread

I have a set of spf1483k (front lower camber bushings) for a s14. Do i need them with tein s-tech springs... 1.3(f) 0.9(r) and how much camber ajustment is there upfront??

[Nismo_Freak]

No camber adjustment stock.

Install the bushings.

[keepingthe240]

I've got a question...and i didn't want to start a new thread

I have a set of spf1483k (front lower camber bushings) for a s14. Do i need them with tein s-tech springs... 1.3(f) 0.9(r) and how much camber ajustment is there upfront??

But do i need them with such a small front drop. I was thinking they would be for coil over users with massive camber. Any one else want give there opinons??

[Q45tech]

1.0" drop typically increases static camber 0.8 [+- 0.2] degrees more negative.

[Nismo_Freak]

1.0" drop typically increases static camber 0.8 [+- 0.2] degrees more negative.

On the 240 I've found this to be about 1 deg. per inch.

Hunter Alignment Machine + Coilovers + Boredom = Teh Win

[s13conv]

I'm installing shocks and springs w/ a 1.6f and 1.3r I have a pair of RUCA w/ the whiteline camber bushings.Should I put them in at the same time?

[Q45tech]

Obviously the static camber you can tolerate is a function of tire sidewall stiffness and aspect ratio..........how much the tire will deform to fit the road.

Lower aspect tires/stiffer are more critical to correct camber.

Usually a trade off [limits] is how much braking you lose with greater than oem camber.Remember the front drops 1-2-3" in braking [depending on spring stiffness] and thus the camber gain [if any] causes the static camber to change.

On the old Q/G20 there is an angled upper link in front to create a camber curve, why negative 0.7 degrees is ideal in the front.

When ever you lower either of these, you are no longer in the center of the curve. Thus on mild rebound with lowering the camber goes more positive in the upward 1" of travel.......kind of spooky in certain situations.

http://www.auto-ware.com/setup/cam_curv ... my...2.htm

[Nismo_Freak]

Werd, on the Hoosier AS series tires they suggest running 3 deg. of static negative camber even if it is less than ideal.

[j-z]

alright, well i have my camber adjusted to where i want it and its pretty damn good. i have another question kinda off, but since the tech gurus are in here i might as well ask. my car pulls to the right pretty hard. its done it ever since i bought it. the tire pressure in all tires is good. what can i look at to fix this? adjust the front tie rods? any help would be appreciated.

[Q45tech]

All camber and caster and toe side to side should be identical ,same with rear generating a zero thrust angle.

This applies to static measurements and rolling measurements [as bushings may deflect differently at the same forward load.

[j-z]

ok, well the camber is all the same, so thats eliminated. so its either the caster or toe. ill have to check those this weekend. for some reason i think its the caster. thanks