How can you not be in favor of the death penalty?

[Eikon]

Yesterday afternoon a group of nine young adults (18-21 year olds) from Kingsford Michigan area decided to enjoy a nice summer day by swimming in the Menominee River (on the border between Wisconsin and Michigan).

While they were swimming a man in his 30's or 40's dressed head to toe in camo snuck down near the river bank. He then raised his assault rifle and sighted in on one of the kids and opened fire. By the time he was done, three are dead and one severly injured.

Over 100 law enforment officers conducted an overnight manhunt after evacuating everyone within a mile radius.

They caught him this morning apparently.

How can a person like this be allowed to live?Why do we even need a trial?

I know we need to at least have a trial, and clearly this man will be convicted. But he'll get to live out his life in a prison getting three squares a day and the only stress he'll go through is being careful when he bends over in the shower.

http://www.wfrv.com/news/local...04557

[rn79870]

Seth. Sometimes it's not a matter of supporting or not supporting the death penalty. For many people it's a matter of drawing an acceptable line in the sand. The differing opinions are where that line gets drawn. I don't believe it's appropriate for a crime when a life was not taken, others disagree.

Then there's the matter of proof. Crimes with ubiquitous witnesses, and clear identification of the actor are one thing, such as where the police catch the culprit in the act with the smoking gun. Other crimes where the defendant was found guilty with less than conclusive evidence present other problems.

Technology can send the certainty of convictions off the scale and make the decision much, much easier. If there is conclusive DNA evidence, or clear fingerprint evidence. Circumstantial evidence should never be a basis for a capital conviction.

Then there are constitutional considerations. A trial by an impartial jury (as was absent in a military conviction recently discussed here), is a bare minimum. Competent counsel. 5th. Amendment rights to name a few.

Finally, given the finality of the execution and it's inability to undo it on appeal, the need for very strict guidelines need be present. I could do a search at Amnesty International with respect to the number of capital cases that have been overturned due to advances in evidence technology. Even one would be too many, but there were far more than one.

That's how I can not be in favor of the death penalty. It's too final and far too often, it's in error. Nothings perfect. A man who is caught shooting kids is totally beyond the that line though, and even I would lose no sleep over it.

[smockers83]

WHAT??? Where did you get this? This is like an hour away from my home in the UP which may seem far, but in UP terms it isn't. I've been to Kingsford/Iron Mountain for numerous reasons from Gus Mackers to high school sports to golfing one of the Midwest's finest courses with friends from that area. For this type of thing to happen in the UP is very very rare. This is honestly a complete shock. So sad. I think I kind of knew one of the kids as he had an older brother who was in high school the same time I was, if they're related. Here's an article from the local paper reprinted in another UP paper.

http://www.miningjournal.net/p...=5006

[telcoman]

How can a person like this be allowed to live?Why do we even need a trial?

Because this is the United States and the taliban does not rule here.

Why did an #sshole like him have an assault rifle. How was he able to obtain a weapon like that. Was he mentally qualifed to own one?

He probably does deserve to die but I'd rather see him spend the rest of his life in solitary in the worst prison the US has to offer.

On the death penalty, do some research on the innocence project in this country. Too much false testimony and false eye whitness reports just to obtain convictions. Too many mistakes in our criminal justice system to condone the death penalty.

Before allowing someone their constitional right to own a gun, the state should be making damm sure they are qualified, licensed, properly trained and mentally stable enough to own one.

Telcoman

[Eikon]

I agree with you telco...

this tragic story goes back to Gun Control rather than the Death Penalty.

Why are assault rifles allowed in the hands of non-military?

[smockers83]

The guy was a Yooper, too. Yoopers love it when the UP is on the national news because hardly anything happens that gets reported other than locally. But we don't want to be on national news like this. Still shocked by this.

[mtcookson]

Don't even start on the gun deal... he could have just as easily killed them with a knife or even a pen. Regardless of what he killed them with, he killed and needs to be killed. Simple as that.

[Eikon]

Don't even start on the gun deal... he could have just as easily killed them with a knife or even a pen. Regardless of what he killed them with, he killed and needs to be killed. Simple as that.

I don't believe that's a true statement. I don't think he could have just as easily killed them with a knife.. and clearly you're joking about the pen. If it was the element of surprise, then yes, he probably could have killed one of them with whatever weapon he had available (a tree branch)... but he wouldn't have been able to kill 3 and wound another.

That's my beef with assault rifles. I don't see a reason for a non-military member of the public to be able to let off enough rounds to kill multiple people in a very short time. This has no hunting benefit, and it has no self-defense benefit.

To be clear.. before this blows up into a gun control debate.. I am in favor of our right to own guns. As long as those guns are for hunting and/or self defense. I think those are reasonable rights to preserve for our society.

[smockers83]

He probably does deserve to die but I'd rather see him spend the rest of his life in solitary in the worst prison the US has to offer.

He'll most likely end up staying in the UP, either in Baraga or Marquette. A lot of the criminals jailed in the UP are not from the UP, but are from the lower part of the state from the cities and have committed very serious crimes. They all get shipped up here because if they try to escape, they really have nowhere to go and if they do actually escape they are usually found very quickly that you wouldn't even know if they escaped.

A lot of people in the UP have guns and many of them are rifles as a lot of people hunt. How he had an assault rifle, I have no idea, but if he did it with an assault rifle, if he had another type of rifle, he still would have done it. Even if he didn't have a gun, he probably could have easily acquired one.

Just so that everyone knows, the State of Michigan doesn't have the death penalty and has never executed someone. The state was the first English-speaking government to ban the death penalty.

[mtcookson]

I don't believe that's a true statement. I don't think he could have just as easily killed them with a knife.. and clearly you're joking about the pen. If it was the element of surprise, then yes, he probably could have killed one of them with whatever weapon he had available (a tree branch)... but he wouldn't have been able to kill 3 and wound another.

That's my beef with assault rifles. I don't see a reason for a non-military member of the public to be able to let off enough rounds to kill multiple people in a very short time. This has no hunting benefit, and it has no self-defense benefit.

To be clear.. before this blows up into a gun control debate.. I am in favor of our right to own guns. As long as those guns are for hunting and/or self defense. I think those are reasonable rights to preserve for our society.

Being a relatively big group I could easily see a person getting 3 with a knife, especially with an element of surprise (swim under them and pop up in the middle of the group swinging, etc).

The other problem is could have done the same thing or worse with a regular hunting type rifle that would likely be even more accurate than the assault rifle. He could have also walked up with a couple hand guns and probably taken all of them out. Unless it was fully automatic with a 30 round or better mag (which tend to be even worse at accuracy)... there's simply no way the assault rifle gave him any more of an advantage over regularly available guns.

[C-Kwik]

Being a relatively big group I could easily see a person getting 3 with a knife, especially with an element of surprise (swim under them and pop up in the middle of the group swinging, etc).

I don't think he is some ex-navy seal or something. But even if he could, you assume he would be able to strike lethal blows that quickly. Depending on the type of kids that were there, perhaps some of them would be able to fight them off. But I'd take my chances with someone with a knife at close range over a gun at medium range with no cover.

The other problem is could have done the same thing or worse with a regular hunting type rifle that would likely be even more accurate than the assault rifle. He could have also walked up with a couple hand guns and probably taken all of them out. Unless it was fully automatic with a 30 round or better mag (which tend to be even worse at accuracy)... there's simply no way the assault rifle gave him any more of an advantage over regularly available guns.

Perhaps. But it wasn't. This guy probably had psychological problems. If he knew anything about guns, he might have felt more powerful behind an assualt rifle as oposed to a hunting rifle or pistol. Who knows. Its speculation either way. But noone can dispute that assault rifles have no practical purpose in the possession of a common man. It makes it an easy target. And until gun owners take responsibility for trying to make sure they don't get into the hands of people like this or used for negative reasons, they will always be a target.

As for the death penalty, my ideal is that people shouldn't have the power to decide if someone lives or dies. However, I support its existence because nothing in life is ideal.

Don't even start on the gun deal... he could have just as easily killed them with a knife or even a pen. Regardless of what he killed them with, he killed and needs to be killed. Simple as that.

Anyone else think about The Chronicles of Riddick when Riddick says he'll kill the gaurd with his tea cup?

[heliochrome85]

there aint anything wrong with being pro-gun, but i dont think everyone should get them as easily as they can now. guns should not be banned, but you have to show some competence to be able to purchase them. im sorry, its just too easy. see columbine, see NIU, see Virginia Tech, etc.

[heliochrome85]

i dont believe in the death penalty. its not the state's job to decide who can and cannot live. capital crimes such as these, deserve mental tortue, but not the death penalty. the person doesnt suffer.

[Jager]

Im gonna preface this with the blanket statement, what happened to those kids is a tragedy, and im not trying to make light of that, this however is the response to the he used an "assault" weapon comments above and in the article.

"there is no better form of ignorance then the man who owns not, but speaks of."

its a great quote and one i find highly fitting for this particular story toward the media the cop in that story if he really said what he said exactly, and anyone who thinks banning or removing/making gun control stricter over one type of gun while leaving others alone due to how it looks.

while i agree the idiot needs to be in jail or dead, the fact that he used an "assault" rifle. there is no mention of what that means or what he really had. its another case of the media and the police commenting on the "Ugly gun" issue. Sadly it would have made no difference as far as the guys ability to do what he did if he used a "hunting" (non ugly) semi automatic and the results would have been more dead and likely he could have done it at greater range. and maybe not gotten caught.

yet already people start screaming that semi auto guns of military origin or black, ugly or utilitarian etc, shouldnt be in the publics hands

Want the assualt weapons gone? you better remove about half the regular "hunting" weapons Americans use that use the same ammo and semi auto firing mechanisms. like saying all mustangs speed simply because they look fast so ticket them only. its bull**** and we all know it.

let me point out that our nations leaders in the brady gun control law banned all guns that looked "evil" or could be made to hold a bayonet or a folding stock etc. that became the "assualt"/military weapons ban.

any gun whether a single shot or a semi auto or bolt action can kill people, how it "looked" has nothing to do with how it operated, how it looked is how it got mentioned in the news and becomes the gun debate.

im glad that guy used the terribly inaccurate gun he did use, instead of a decent semi automatic hunting rifle. say the ruger mini 30. that shoots an ak-47 round much more accurately from hundreds of yards away and does so with up to a 30 round magazine. its ok though it isnt ugly looking.....

there was a failure in the background check for this man, or he bought the gun years ago= and passed it then, who knows the article doesnt say.

I have a gunseller ID i can if i so choose run background checks and am fairly well versed in VA and federal requirements for purchasing a gun and the checks the state police do before we release the gun to a customer. Its thorough, its a huge penelty for lying and we have state cops in regularly arresting people who have even minor unpaid parking tickets so the chances of the guy getting a gun now without being flagged are low (at least in VA if he tried here) (after the tech incident all medical records got released so privacy lost but overall law abiding citizens won on that one...)

whos to say the guy got the gun legitimately though? we dont know anything really at all so to start spouting rhetoric about gun control are sad.

BTW california has one of the most restrictive gun control policies and guess what? it only stops law abiding folks... weird how that works eh

[Marenta]

Yeah, thank god I had my EIN and CWP before the VT incident. After that happened the State Police were god awful to deal with.

When the world goes to ****, the people that do things legally are the people you WANT to have the guns. And, the people that do things illegally are the people that WILL have all the guns. Then we're just going to be fcsked with nothing to protect ourselves. Let's just hope that doesn't happen.

I don't think that guy deserves the death penalty.

I think he deserves to have hot coals placed on his scrotum every 10 days. Perhaps maybe some Lye rubbed on his feet and then placed into a salt water bath. I don't know.. just anyway to torture him, painfully, without mercy.

[rn79870]

Okay, we've decided what guns to start WW3 with, anybody want to tell me why the death penalty sucks or doesn't suck for the shooter mentioned in the OP. Feel free to start a gun control thread if you like and watch the roof come off the place.

[Marenta]

I don't think he deserves the death penalty. I think he deserves much much worse. But, this is Liberal America.. we can't torture people here. We're not Korean.

[Jager]

the mag is a novak, but ive played with wilson combat as well as the standard 7 round gun show special stuff, the novaks seem to feed well.

as for the 3.5 inch the issue becomes the main spring housing on the backstrap, its not long enough to fill my hand, so firing the gun bites the inside meat of the hand, not terribly, but enough that i know i prefer the cmdr 4inch o what i have now the 5 inch over the 3.5.

not being a short guy (5'11" or 6') and 170 means the 5 inch doesnt stick out really for CCW anyway.

getting back on target RN i said my statement above, the guy should face capital charges and probably should die, he walked 10 feet away from those kids and opened fire...

least he wasnt smart as i said above.

update seems a woman has come forward claiming the guy raped her as well.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...oting

that means even if he doesnt get multiple charges of murder verdicts the felony gun use charge and the rape charge means he can kiss his *** goodbye for more then 20 years at least.

The only thing im left wondering is how mentally unstable the guy really is, the article mentions military service, and the hair suggests he at least is a wannabe or may have served in the past. be interesting to see how that plays out.

either way lock his *** up and try him for capital punishment. this is one who doesnt deserve another chance to do this again.

[Marenta]

Does it mention what kind of weapon he used? I'm curious..

But, I don't want to put these f*** in prison.. I'm tired of seeing my money go to their food and shelter. I want to see them being tortured and mutilated.

But, then again.. I'm also a little on the sick and deprived side, too. I don't exactly believe in God, but I do believe in Divine Justice.. and if he does get the death penalty; well, if there is an afterlife, he'll get what's coming to him.

[smockers83]

He won't get the death penalty because there is no death penalty in MI or WI. What I want to know though is who gets to prosecute him...MI or WI? Because the river they were at is the border of MI and WI, so where were the kids, where was the shooter? If it was a cross border killing, shouldn't the FBI be taking over the investigation? I guess we'll find out the details as the investigation continues.

[themadscientist]

I used to be for the death penalty but have changed my opinion. The state should not engage in vindication, it's not justice. Take their life away in another way by locking them in a box.

[heliochrome85]

i am amazed. i actually have found somehthing i agree with TMS on. wow. never thought it could happen.

death penalty is a remnant of an immature society. the state should not take the lives of its citizens.

[Marenta]

Heh.. It depends. We're too liberal in America to do what really needs to be done to them. So, we're going to let them sit in Jail and waste our money. Yeah.. that's really a great idea.

[Cold_Zero]

I disagree with both of you (TMS and Helio). Government, by its very mandate is to derive laws and enforce them, basically to keep order and prevent chaos. So as a part of 'Justice' it is the Governments job to enforce the laws and punish the lawbreakers. One of these tools (among others) is Capital Punishment, the ultimate punishment for breaking the Law. If it is not the Government's job to punish lawbreakers (criminals) then whose job is it?

[Marenta]

I disagree with both of you (TMS and Helio). Government, by its very mandate is to derive laws and enforce them, basically to keep order and prevent chaos. So as a part of 'Justice' it is the Governments job to enforce the laws and punish the lawbreakers. One of these tools (among others) is Capital Punishment, the ultimate punishment for breaking the Law. If it is not the Government's job to punish lawbreakers (criminals) then whose job is it?

I agree 100% whole heartedly.

I'd like to torture the sons of bishez who do crimes.. but I can't do that.. it's immoral and unethical and blah de blah de blahblahblah. But, instead, let's fry them. I'm cool with that.

[rn79870]

So, you're a republican...

[themadscientist]

ok, then explain to me what is gained by execution over incarceration until death?

[Marenta]

So, you're a republican...

And, you're a Democrat?

But, does that mean that we're going to throw stones or sticks? Naw. Will I throw a switch? Never. Would I like to torture some of these deprived fcsks, hell yes I would.

Does my being a Republican make me any less human? Nope. Nor does you being Democrat make you any less human. Or being Liberal. Or my Conservative. Just because you put a name to the flavor doesn't mean that you take away the taste or the face that it makes.



I guess what I'm trying to say is that... Nobody really likes to see another person die. Unless they're really mentally ill. And, if some sick fcsk killed my family, or my son, or anybody close to me, I'd be filled with blood lust in nanoseconds. Would I be able to carry out the death of the person that did it? Probably. Would it be gruesome and painful? Absolutely. Would I spend the rest of my life hating myself because of it? I have no doubt in my mind. I don't think anybody wakes up in the morning and says "Gee, I think I want to sentence somebody to death today." Does that make sense, or am I being too obscure?

[themadscientist]

If you are not capable of pulling the trigger or throwing the switch than your support of the death penalty is rendered contradictory.

[smockers83]

Capital punishment is something I'm not quite sure where I stand on. Yeah, really bad people need to be punished severely and some are so bad that people would like to see them killed. While at the same time, jailing someone for life can be pretty rough as well living with the memory of what you did to get there. At the same time again, jailing people costs a lot of money. At the same time again again, if you're in jail for life, what's the point of having a life? You don't have the chance of ever coming out a changed person or something.

I wonder if they had this conversation in the ancient world?