How can you not be in favor of the death penalty?

[themadscientist]

likely not, "og, club that mutha****er" was likely what was said.modern man claims to be civilized well walk the walk. You say killing is wrong but then engage in institutionalized killing as a punishment? Am I one of two people who find that a bit contradictory and illogical?

[heliochrome85]

they didnt. you just died.

since we arent crapping in the streets, or praying to the sun, maybe we shouldnt espouse the same courses of action of our forefathers. i find it funny that marenta has issues with torture for moral reasons, yet killing someone, no moral issues at all. cant have it both ways.

you wanna know how we pay for life terms? you stop filling the jails with retard pot heads thanks to 3 strikes your out rules like in CA. there is no reason why our country should have so many people in jail. empty the jails and then you can afford to keep our countries worst offenders in them indefinately. we are no better than china. no better than afghanistan. city on the hill indeed.

[Marenta]

If you are not capable of pulling the trigger or throwing the switch than your support of the death penalty is a facade.

Wait a second, all I said is "Will I throw a switch? Never." meaning.. I'm never going to be allowed to.

Like I would ever be allowed to. There's a lot more creative ways to fry them than throwing a switch or pulling a trigger or pushing a button.

I'm not sadistic, generally. But, to criminals (whom I consider not even human anymore, which is why it's probably so easy for me to just dispense with the trash) I could find a fair shake of sadist in me.

Now, that doesn't mean that you should lock me up in a chamber and make me write my own stories with my own blood on the walls or anything and call me Marquis. But, I would expect to pay for my crimes in the same manner as that which they would be paying for theirs. And, as oddly naive as it sounds, I would be happy to receive the justice in that fashion, for I knew it was the right way. The problem is that zeal is it's own excuse, huh?

[rn79870]

Smocky, being confused over this issue only proves that you understand the situation and the effect of the punishment. We all agree that there has to be a line somewhere, yet each person has to answer the question of when that line is crossed, and when the punishment is appropriate. It isn't as easy as "burn them all" like many people feel.

[themadscientist]

the death penalty is not justice; call what it is, revenge. If a person has displayed traits that make them a danger than I think a civilized society is well within its rights to take him or her out of the group. Life imprisonment accomplishes that and if prisons were run like prisons the offender could contribute to society through labor; something a dead man can't do.Killing for killing is still killing and at the end all you have is two dead people. The death penalty doesn't bring the victim back, it is debatable whether it provides the victims loved ones closure and according to some links so far provided can actually cost more than incarceration. So I again ask all the cowboys that post about their outrage at violent crime and than in the same breath elaborate "what I would do to that bastard"; you are standing on what moral, philosophical or logical point exactly?

Wait a second, all I said is "Will I throw a switch? Never." meaning.. I'm never going to be allowed to.

Like I would ever be allowed to. There's a lot more creative ways to fry them than throwing a switch or pulling a trigger or pushing a button.

I'm not sadistic, generally. But, to criminals (whom I consider not even human anymore, which is why it's probably so easy for me to just dispense with the trash) I could find a fair shake of sadist in me.

Now, that doesn't mean that you should lock me up in a chamber and make me write my own stories with my own blood on the walls or anything and call me Marquis. But, I would expect to pay for my crimes in the same manner as that which they would be paying for theirs. And, as oddly naive as it sounds, I would be happy to receive the justice in that fashion, for I knew it was the right way. The problem is that zeal is it's own excuse, huh?

And what would separate you from the killer, a government order? Shaky reasoning IMO at best, hypocritical at worst.

[heliochrome85]

here here TMS. i never understood the blood lust. would i want the guy to suffer? yes, but as we all know, via clockwork orange, psychological suffering is far worse. maybe this is why our society kills more on average than other societies of equal wealth and gun availability.

[themadscientist]

I totally understand the bloodlust and I think if any one of us lost a loved one to a violent crime, given the opportunity we would compound it with vindictive violence of our own. I have serious problem when people try to wrap what is murder; cold blooded, premeditated murder, in the cloak of procedural punishment for that same behavior perpetrated by the condemned. It doesn't wash.

[Marenta]

Okay.. fine. I would LOVE to psychologically torture them. PLEASE, let me do it. It doesn't have to be physical. Torture is torture either way you hack it. The kill would be to just justify getting off on the fact that I got one over on the bastard. Pure and simple, so, yes; Revenge.

But, LIBERAL AMERICA. We can't even interrogate people that blew up the World Trade Center buildings.. what makes you think we can psychologically screw with people to teach them a lesson? You'll have women dancing outside of prisons, in a picket line, waving signs calling all the criminals human beings and the psychological suffering or restructuring or whatever they called it was a horrible abomination and blah blah blah.

You can't get around that one. So, either we fry them. Let them rot on our dime. Or, we can just mess with their brains. Either way, we lose.

[themadscientist]

let me run the prison. Two cold meals and a cot. You want out of your box work and or study. Prisons need a serious overhaul. That is a related but peripheral issue to the discussion of capital punishment.The inescapable part is that a society that claims to be civilized must walk the walk. I would be just as happy in a post apocalyptic road warrior world, survival of the fittest, pop a mofo for a tank of gas but that is not the world we live in. America claims to be moral and just, do so or spare me the song and dance.

[heliochrome85]

let me run the prison. Two cold meals and a cot. You want out of your box work and or study. Prisons need a serious overhaul. That is a related but peripheral issue to the discussion of capital punishment.The inescapable part is that a society that claims to be civilized must walk the walk. I would be just as happy in a post apocalyptic road warrior world, survival of the fittest, pop a mofo for a tank of gas but that is not the world we live in. America claims to be moral and just, do so or spare me the song and dance.

excellence.

[Marenta]

Hey, I'm about as Moral and Just as I suppose I need to be. I think I'm doing alright. My son tells me he loves me. I earn my keep. I pay my taxes. I don't break any laws. I'm nice to a$$holes and I turn the other cheek.

I'll give everybody a fair shake. If you're a decent guy/girl, and you're just trying to make it on your own, and you need a hand. I'm there for ya. I don't have any preconceived notions, I don't judge, and I see the forest, as well as the trees. But, if you are some slime ball dirt bag sleazy punk, expect nothing but disrespect from me.

I have a severe lack of faith in our prisons. Mainly because they waste our money and our time. We send people in, they come out either worse, or just the same. Rare is the occasion that it gets better, but I'm glad when there is one that does. I applaud it.

So, chalk me up for American, because I may not have morals and I may not be just.. but I want the chance to make it so.

[Cold_Zero]

they didnt. you just died.

since we arent crapping in the streets, or praying to the sun, maybe we shouldnt espouse the same courses of action of our forefathers. i find it funny that marenta has issues with torture for moral reasons, yet killing someone, no moral issues at all. cant have it both ways.

you wanna know how we pay for life terms? you stop filling the jails with retard pot heads thanks to 3 strikes your out rules like in CA. there is no reason why our country should have so many people in jail. empty the jails and then you can afford to keep our countries worst offenders in them indefinately. we are no better than china. no better than afghanistan. city on the hill indeed.

Helio, this isnt aimed at you my friend, I am just picking out your statement. I have said it before in the 'Abortion Thread,' I dont understand the contradiction that people have between the Death Penalty and Abortion. We afford more rights and checks and balances to criminals on death row before we execute them than we do to innocent babies. Aborted fetuses dont even get a trial before they are executed. City on a Hill Indeed.

[heliochrome85]

trust me, im not pro-abortion either. but i do believe that universal bans are the wrong choice. there are specific cases underwhich an abortion is the only way to save the mother. thats a differnt thread. im just saying, if we are the leader of the world, these practices need to stop. they only speak of antique thinking. you want to deal with criminials, then fine, life in prison it is. if it isnt life in prison, then there is hope for rehab and that should be the focus. locking them up doesnt fix the problem, it just puts a bandaid on it.

[rn79870]

Unfortunately a fetus isn't a being (or more specifically - a citizen) entitled to constitutional protection. That's another issue for another thread perhaps.

A condemned man is a citizen, therefore s/he is entitled to constitutional protection, at the very least, complete constitutional protection.

[Cold_Zero]

T-I thought you were an Islamo fascist? And Islamo fascists have that there Sha Ria Law, that calls for cutting off the hands of thieves and for stoning women who walk with men that they are not related to? j/kI hijacked this thread.....Sorry Guys. Back to Capital Punishment [/Hijack]

[Marenta]

Unfortunately a fetus isn't a being (or more specifically - a citizen) entitled to constitutional protection. That's another issue for another thread perhaps.

A condemned man is a citizen, therefore s/he is entitled to constitutional protection, at the very least, complete constitutional protection.

Okay, then so too are the people that he/she did something against. Do not they deserve protection? Where was their protection? Do not they deserve rights as well?

When these criminals are put through the judicial ringer, and they are found GUILTY, and after appeals, they are still found GUILTY. Wouldn't you think it would be enough? Time for the victims to have their rights? The criminals had theirs. And, if they went through the system and it still found them guilty after all of the proceedings, then that's enough.

[heliochrome85]

well bud, islamofascist, i am. or at least GWB says so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...c_law

pretty cool.//end thread jack.

[Cold_Zero]

well bud, islamofascist, i am. or at least GWB says so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...c_law

pretty cool.//end thread jack.

Wear it with pride my friend!

[heliochrome85]

i want to get a shirt with it on the front in nice scripty script. It would be awesome. too bad not many people would understand...

[rn79870]

Okay, then so too are the people that he/she did something against. Do not they deserve protection? Where was their protection? Do not they deserve rights as well?

They most certainly do. Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to identify and protect them prior to the criminal event. I'm not dismissing your point here, but if we could identify them, we certainly have an obligation to protect them.

When these criminals are put through the judicial ringer, and they are found GUILTY, and after appeals, they are still found GUILTY. Wouldn't you think it would be enough? Time for the victims to have their rights? The criminals had theirs. And, if they went through the system and it still found them guilty after all of the proceedings, then that's enough.

There can't be a hard and cold one size fits all rule. Other factors come into play. Here is a snippet from an article...

TAMPA, Fla. — A man who spent 14 years on death row in a murder for hire slaying has pleaded guilty — and is now a free man.

Michael Mordenti is now headed for Alaska.

He was convicted in 1991 of first degree murder in the slaying of Thelma Royston. A judge ordered a retrial and the second trial ended in a hung jury. A third jury convicted him.

Prosecutors said Mordenti agreed to take $10,000 from Royston's husband to kill her. Mordenti always stated that he did not commit the murder.

Before Royston's husband killed himself, he told his attorney that prosecutors had convicted the wrong man. This was enough for an appeals court to order a new trial — then Mordenti agreed to a deal: plead guilty to second-degree murder with credit for time served, and go free.

Mordenti was released last Friday and on Wednesday, he boarded a plane for Alaska.

He even pled guilty when he was innocent. The system works in strange ways.

How many people in death row, after fair trials and appeals have been set free due to advances in evidence technology (DNA) - I think it's something over 9 now (not quoted for truth though).

Would you rather execute an innocent man or let a guilty man go free? Seriously, think about that last question and choose one of the options.

[Marenta]

I wonder.. do you guys believe in a "For the greater good" mentality?

Would you willingly sacrifice somebody for the good of mankind, or a group of people? Would you sacrifice yourself?

(Be patient, I'm going somewhere with this.)

[heliochrome85]

who are you referring to "you guys"? me and my culture? or the nico crew in general?

[rn79870]

That's a decision each person should make. I wouldn't want the responsibility of making that decision for another person.

Would I sacrifice myself? If I had to give a kidney or an organ to save one of my children, and doing so would kill me, I would do it without question. However, I wouldn't make the same sacrifice for someone I didn't know.

So I'll answer your question with a very qualified maybe.

[Marenta]

Nico crew in general.

I do not call out "you and your culture" references very frequently. They make for bad turns in conversation. I don't like to direct things that way. Sorry for not being more specific.

[Cold_Zero]

I have a shirt that says, "Infidel" with it written in Arabic.كافر

I love wearing it around town, need to get a new one because Repoman burned a whole it in during the 4th two years ago. He also had his mother law get hit with an artillery shell firework during his demonstration.

[heliochrome85]

gotcha, since you replied to my last post, hence the confusion. i agree with RN, its a very qualified maybe.

[heliochrome85]

excellence.

[Marenta]

The reason why I brought up the "for the greater good" thing, was because I was thinking about hostage situations and stuff like that..

Where you might have to sacrifice one person to save an entire bank full of people. Something like that. If you have one hostage who's being used for a shield, but you can shoot the guy through the shoulder to the guy behind him. It's a risky shot.

You never do that in real life, you never risk the life of a civilian. But, by taking that one shot, you could save those 30 or 40 lives in the bank. And, what if the guy just might live.

That's a tough call. I don't think I have the balls to do something like that, though.

[themadscientist]

that is not a comparable situation. A man on death row is in check, not a threat. An armed person holding hostages or in the act of committing a crime or in anyway capable of further acts of violence is still a threat and must be stopped.

The scenario you describe is a no-brainer IMO. If the sniper knows he can make the shot and he is weapons free then he should take the shot. If I was the shield I would expect to get a shoulder hit. Don't get me wrong, not looking forward to it but I would expect it and if the sniper didn't kill me to be sure to tell him he did the right thing.

[Marenta]

I suppose the main reason why I support the death penalty is that the torment of knowing that they're going to die is punishment beyond what death can actually accomplish.

The taking of another human life is something that is so indescribably horrible, yet is so cheapened by the lack of value that so many people hold their lives at.

It doesn't really matter anyway, the Supreme Court has decided that unless you've actually murdered somebody, you cannot be sentenced to death.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/....rape/