help? blue smoke? :(

[90Q45blue]

So I'm taking my car to get the sunroof fixed today and my mom who is following me says that my exhaust is spewing blue smoke. I stopped the car 30 seconds later as the shop was right there. Please let me know what it might be.

Nick

[DAEDALUS]

Well, it's almost definitely burning oil. There are a few potential culprits. Piston rings, valve guides, & valve guide seals are most likely. Head gasket is another possibility but less likely. Keep a close eye on your oil level to get a rough idea of consumption.

Sorry Nick, this isn't good news. An engine swap might be in your forseeable future. You could do compression and leak down tests to gauge your rings, and if they're good, then you could consider doing a valve job. But they're typically not cost effective. Better to swap the engine rather than rework all 32 valves.

[90Q45blue]

Yeah I didn't figure this was good. Do you think I can drive it 10 miles to the mechanic or is it best to have it towed? I'm pretty sure I should tow it but just want to be sure. Oh well. At 250k I didn't expect her to last forever, just hate to see that time come ya know?

Nick

[PalmerWMD]

No need to have ot towed.Unless it suddenly happend a LOT while none before, that would show a failure of some kind.

But 99% of the time its just some wear inside usually rings.What this means is you are probably losing some compression (=power).But many folks drive for years with some blue smoke .It usually gets worse but this is a process that usually takes yearsand is not at all uncommon in higher milage cars.

As a matter of fact if it just happend at start up it is really no big deal.

Fred..

[PalmerWMD]

Most cars with over 200k on them have at least some blueish exhaust especially on start.

Fred...

[90Q45blue]

Hmmm....

Well Fred that is some good news hopefully. I suppose the power balance test and compression tests should still be done to see what I'm looking at here. The car wasn't spewing a lot of blue smoke but it the smoke definitely was blue. I'll check things out and see what happens. Wish me and my car luck.

Nick

[DAEDALUS]

Yeah, by no means was I implying that this is a critical problem that needs to be looked right away. It's progressive, like Fred said, unless it's the head gasket. Kind of like any other oil leak in that it can be ignored if you choose to do so. The difference being that this is a sign of probable terminal illness for the engine. But who knows? It might have another 50k left before the smoke gets so bad people start avoiding you on the road.

[PalmerWMD]

Chances are good, you can drive it for years with no ill effects.

Switch to a thicker oil like a 20w-50 and the problem may disappear altogether.

Fred...

[90Q45blue]

Wow. When I read Robert's post my heart sunk. I was sure my Q was shot and I needed to figure out what to do. Thank god the problem is not as severe. IF it IS a head gasket, I see the part is only 32 bucks from Joe and my labor is very cheap so would it be worth it to replace it?

Nick

[90Q45blue]

Fred, check your e-mail. I still might consider putting your engine in there.

Nick

[DAEDALUS]

You'd be willing to tackle the head gasket? My goodness, that is ambitious. Hard to say if it would be worth it. You could spend 20 hours replacing it, but still need a valve or ring job. A compression and/or leak-down test might help you decide.

[PalmerWMD]

The most common cause of blue smoke is worn rings.In the absence of other indicators its an assumption I would make.

just a way of life in higher mile engines.

Fred...

[PalmerWMD]

Also headgaskets are generaly thick white smoke with a sweet smelling exhaust.

Blue is typical of oil being burnt.

Fred...

[DAEDALUS]

Depends on where the headgasket fails. White smoke/sweet smell if the gasket fails between combustion chamber and coolant jacket, but it is entirely possible for it to fail elsewhere (into oil passage), allowing oil into the combustion chamber.

[forecast]

watch when the blue smoke comes. at idle, on heavy acceleration, at startup. This may give some indication if this is rings or valves.

The valve seals can be changed with the engine in place without pulling the head.

A blown head gasket often shows other signs such as oil in coolant or the reverse, or exterior oil leaks at the head-block interface.

If you really the car, AND a compression test has good results I'd consider changing the valve seals.

If you pull a head, there is a ton of other hoses and what not that really needs to be changed while a mechanic is in there, so the parts cost will be fair. Definately if a head gets pull you want it to go to a machine shop and at least get inspected.

[forecast]

Depends on where the headgasket fails. White smoke/sweet smell if the gasket fails between combustion chamber and coolant jacket, but it is entirely possible for it to fail elsewhere (into oil passage), allowing oil into the combustion chamber.

All the oil comunication between the head and the block takes place outside of the water jacket. However the head water jacket has slots making dashed circles, while the block has full circles for a water jacket.

Oil enters the head under pressure through a single point in mid head, and exits down the bolt holes.

It's possible for a blown head gasket to allow oil directly into the chamber, but I would put my money on the valve seals (13 year old rubber?) or if a history of poor oil changes, the rings.

[DAEDALUS]

Forecast, have you found a good on-the-car valve spring compressor for the Q? I have yet to see one that will work. I bought one that was designed for that purpose, but it was too large. Very little room between the springs and the head!

[Q45tech]

The valve stem seals are precision expensive VITON [as are the front and rear main seals] and deform if the valve stems get varnished up.Depending on compression and leak down test readings you try BG Quick Clean for Engines..........sometimes the varnish removal will allow the stem seals to return to round [HEAL] after some multiple intensive treatments.

At 250,000 miles unless Mobil 1 was used and changed every 4,000 miles the ring wear will be excessive.

[90Q45blue]

Dennis,

So intensive maintenance such as BG MOA every 1000 miles with oil changes every 1000 miles for a year? In addition to BG Quick Clean and BG 44k? Let me know how intense I should getl. A part of me just wants to continue with my 3k/3mo. oil changes and save up for a brand-new engine. I'm keeping this car forever.

Nick

P.S. If I REALLY do want to keep this car, would it be foolish to buy a brand-new VH45DE?

[PalmerWMD]

Wait for a good one coming up on ebay.Bvut you havent tried that schedule yet.Call me sometime.

Fred...

[DAEDALUS]

P.S. If I REALLY do want to keep this car, would it be foolish to buy a brand-new VH45DE?

Economically that would be foolish IMO. You could swap several used engines for the cost of swapping a single factory new engine. Assuming each swapped engine lasted "only" 100k, 3 swaps would give you the max miles you could expect from a new engine. Statistically speaking, it is unlikely you will put another 300k on the car.

[Q45tech]

In the engine swap, the base engine you buy is just a small part of the cost. $1500 [plus shipping] engines needs $1,000 dollars of parts to be safe in the car....$600 worth of hoses, probably knock sensors/harness, belts, seals, plugs and of course new chain guides and the labor to get the engine ready to swap..............say the R&R ed engine now costs $3,000 to $3,800.........then comes the actual labor to get the old one out and put the newer one in and recharge the AC all fluids and testing.

But still if you can get 100k out of the replacement engine with minor extra expense..

[90Q45blue]

Dennis,

I think my plan right now is going to be to take the best care of this engine that I possibly can and in the meantime save up enough money for a successful engine swap in 2 years.

Say I have T3 do the work, do you think for all parts, shipping and labor, that 8000-10,000 dollars would be enough? I just want to get an idea of what I need to save.

Thanks,

Nick

[90Q45blue]

Fred,

I'll give you a call this evening sometime. This week has been a killer.

[Q45tech]

I don't ever remember an 90-93 engine swap running over $6,100 with sales tax unless the donor and his old engine had bad injectors. Usually you can find enough mix and match parts between the two engines or in our junk pile to complete the project...........All new injectors would be another $1300.......the techs are very concious of owner money........many times I wish they would change more items as you get very nervous when a customer comes from far away.

Used engines are always a risk because in Japan the bumper to bumper traffic and 55 mph speed limit means low miles are not necessarily good miles.........and Q may be idled all day to keep the ac going when used in limo service........but at least they use good oil and change it often.......compared to most in US.

Hoses and harneses are things you don't want to skimp on, gaskets and seals.

Not to say we haven't had $8,000 bills but the owners wanted other things besides the engine fixed. We had one engine job that came back in 2 months for a new transmission.

[90Q45blue]

Thanks for the info Dennis. So it looks like I'll need to save up about what I thought then since, if I'm going to do an engine swap, I'm going to do it right. Also, since you guys see a lot of used engines, would it be possible to T3 to pick the engine for the swap and I pay for both engine and swap? Again, this is far down the road but it's always better to plan ahead.

Nick

[Q45tech]

That's the normal way we do it, we pick the engine, that way we rely on the sellers 6 month warranty and do the things which add confidence to offer a 12/12k warranty. We pull the valve covers before we accept the engine, this gives us a good idea what the bottom end looks like from cam wear.

A ebay engine doesn't include warranty on R&R and removal reinstall labor which could be $500-1,000 plus $1730 plus $500-1,000 again on the replacement engine a $2730-$3730 gamble because a "just install shop" won't warranty labor for things they have no control over. At least T3 gambles with you, why we are so particular.Now T3 doesn't cover things we reuse from either engine like CAS, injectors, hoses, TPS, IAC.......externals.......which usually won't destroy an engine plus we require you to change the oil every 90 days and of course don't cover overheats.

[greg_atlanta]

Get your money's worth out of the current engine first!! I wouldn't replace the engine in a 250K miles car unless it stopped running.

Now is a good time to look up resale value on the car and find out what it's worth should it be totalled in an accident. Can happen to anyone anytime, and insurance companies don't care about new engines.

[PalmerWMD]

That's a risk we all take at all time.

I wish to encourage Nick to take good care of his car.I have a feeling his current engine will still last hima a long time.

And 6k all including engien+ labor+ R&R for an engine is not unreasoanble.

If the rest of a car is a wreck than spednign 6k isnt owrth it but if teh rest of the car is in above average shape then it definetly is.

Yes for 6k you can get another used Q but that wont have guides, good maintenance history etc etc.

Fred...

[elwesso]

And besides, you might as well see how long it lasts!!!