heel toe preference

[andrave]

I usually downshift just cause its more fun. I have ADD so I prefer an active driving technique. But my father always bishez and says "brakes are designed to slow the car. your transmission isn't."

[Bubba1]

I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with coasting to a stop instead of downshifting and including the engine in the braking process. But if you do coast, you should do it while in gear. There's no rule that says you can't slow down using only the brakes. Folks with automatic trannies do it all the time. You do save a small amount of gas if you coast in neutral (or clutch pedal in), and one could argue that its less expensive to replace brake pads than a clutch by having the brakes do 100% of the work. But there's a safety and control aspect you're giving up by coasting in neutral or with the clutch pedal while in a higher gear. If you run into an sudden situation that requires a quick corrective action with the throttle, you can make the correction faster if you're already in gear (and the correct gear for the speed you're slowing down to) Doesn't matter that you're quick with your feet, it's going to take longer to react to an emergency situationwhen you have to make more movements to accomplish the manuever. Of course the odds are with you that you won't likely ever run into a situation like that when coasting to a stop unless you drive in Boston (ahem). There is really no right or wrong way to do it, but there are good/bad points to each style.

[MaineExport]

There's no rule that says you can't slow down using only the brakes. Folks with automatic trannies do it all the time.

Well,

once you let off the gas in an automatic... guess what you're doing... ENGINE BRAKING!

[crzycav86]

No,

once you let off the gas in an automatic... guess what you're doing... ENGINE BRAKING!

True.

Bubba: Ever notice that you slow down faster coasting in an automatic with it in gear rather than putting it in neutral and coasting? Letting off the gas in an automatic != pushing in the clutch and coasting in a manual.

[MaineExport]

Oh.... and the auto transmission is also DOWNSHIFTING as you lose speed.

Auto = engine braking and downshifting. So, the same holds true with a manual... engine braking and downshifting is the best way to go. Obviously you need to use the brakes when appropriate, but when slowing down to a stop or not... the downshift method is best.

The first two lessons my old man drilled into my head OVER and OVER again when he was teaching me to drive: NEVER coast to a stop, and keep your damn foot OFF the clutch petal!! Apparently even just the light pressure of resting your foot hovering over the clutch causes undue wear and tear on the cluch. So... PUT YOUR LEFT FOOT BACK ON THE FLOOR AFTER EVERY SHIFT BOY!!!

[PoorManQ45]

The first two lessons my old man drilled into my head OVER and OVER again when he was teaching me to drive: NEVER coast to a stop, and keep your damn foot OFF the clutch petal!! Apparently even just the light pressure of resting your foot hovering over the clutch causes undue wear and tear on the cluch. So... PUT YOUR LEFT FOOT BACK ON THE FLOOR AFTER EVERY SHIFT BOY!!!

Did he mean coast as in just letting off the gas? Or did he mean pushing the clutch pedal in or shifting into neutral?

Because there is no problem whatsoever with coasting to a stop in gear. When am approaching a stop light, and I see that it just turned red, I let off the gas immediately and lightly press the brake. Gradually slowing down so I don't have to slam on the brakes at the last second. Most people slam on the brakes at the last second. It really pisses people off when I'm 25Yds away from the red light and doing 15~20mph when the speed limit is 45MPH. My god are they that stupid? Am I supposed to speed up to stop ?

Now, I can see where pushing in the clutch pedal causes clutch problems, but are there any other problems then those mentioned by Bubba to shifting into neutral? Is a manual like an auto transmission where the transmission pump doesn't operate in neutral?

[MaineExport]

He was basically saying I should downshift and engine brake to a stop, and only use the brakes when needed.

Coasting to a stop means (to me anyway) keeping the clutch depressed or putting the transmission in neutral and rolling to a stop using only the brakes to slow down.

Your interpretation of "coasting" to a stop is what I call engine braking. You are using the natural tendency of the 4-stroke engine to slow RPM's when the fuel is let off to slow down your forward momentum.

[MaineExport]

I would also like to add that NOBODY should be trying to equate race technique driving or teaching with on-highway techniques.

The two driving styles are COMPLETELY different and thus can not be compared relatively.

Cornering in auto-x (or like how we're trained in moto-x) is not only impractical on the street... but extremely dangerous. There is no such thing as rolling, coasting, or engine braking into a corner. We're on WOT (wide open throttle) until the absolute last possible moment entering into a corner, then brake HARD (to just under the point of lockup), clutch in, drop two grears (or more depending on degree of corner), back to WOT, shift weight in and forward, drop clutch and hang on! Always accelerating through the corner.

Do that in a car on the street... you'll either kill someone or get arrested!

[LiU]

Bubba great explanation... wow I can't believe people actually do double clutch/heel toe AND sequential downshift... ... that sounds crazy hehehe... I'm so used to just skipping gears and blipping higher when I downshift, I'm trying to get used to and get better at sequential heel toe down shift, great info everyone.

[PoorManQ45]

Do that in a car on the street... you'll either kill someone or get arrested!

Makes for fun in a RWD car though . But like you said, it's very dangerous. I take that you Auto-cross Maine?

Hey I think we forgot one important thing. Transmission life. Transmissions only have a limited amount of shifts in them. It does very from vehicle to vehicle, but there is a general average number of shifts that a transmission will live through in it's "lifetime". So, sequential downshifting to a stop may be using up some of the total shifts. Does that make sence, or is it just another stupid thing that I said?

[MaineExport]

Makes for fun in a RWD car though

It sure does! You actually get more control accelerating through corners in a RWD as long as you can get good traction. The weight shift to the rear plants your drive wheels better.

I take that you Auto-cross Maine?

I have.. but most of my racing experience comes from a slightly smaller (and faster) 4-wheeled vehicle! If you know much about race quads... I have a very lame joke about how I race two 240's. The 240sx and my YFS 240.

Ha... which do you think is more fun:

160 HP pushing 2750 pounds

or

50 HP pushing 300 pounds!!

You can surely see why I may not get to the auto-x events as much as moto-x.

Hey I think we forgot one important thing. Transmission life. Transmissions only have a limited amount of shifts in them. It does very from vehicle to vehicle, but there is a general average number of shifts that a transmission will live through in it's "lifetime". So, sequential downshifting to a stop may be using up some of the total shifts. Does that make sence, or is it just another stupid thing that I said?

Not stupid at all, it makes perfect sense. I would just argue that in the short average time we own a vehicle, one will replace brakes at least once or twice. The transmission usually lasts two or three owners before needing a replacement. The brakes are a high wear item, the transmission is not.

My baby:Trenga Racing 240 big bore stage 3 ported/polished cylinderTranga planed headKeihin 36mm AirStryker race carbLRD adjustable expansion exhaustV'Force Delta II reed cage and reedsCRM intakeForged/blanced crankWiseco PistonHot Rod's connecting rodHigh compression Cometic gasketsHyrdaulic clutch6 speed

and that's just the motor!!!!!

Anybody have to buy race gas? This engine will detonate on anything less than 110 octane. $5.50 per gallon!
Modified by MaineExport at 9:33 PM 12/19/2004

[PoorManQ45]

I want that 240! And I don't mean the 240sx. I want the Yfs 240. I have read a bit about them. They are very nice. I bet the Quad kills the 240sx until about 40~70mph.

answer: YFS 240 = Way more fun then 240sx.

Oh, have you modified the Quad at all?

[MaineExport]

I went back and added the engine mods to my previous post. But beyond that the entire thing is after-market.

The only thing that's still stock is the bottom end engine case and the frame (which is silver-vein powder coated)

But here's a quick list that I can think of off the top of my head:

Trenga oil-injection block kit

Vito's Performance Reed spacer

4 Play +3+1 A-arms

Works Ultra-Cross dual-rate remote resevoir shocks front and back (valved for a 175 pound rider) Adjustable rebound and compression

RPM Dominator +4 rear axle

East Coast ATV front and rear disc brake conversions

Trenga anti-vibe steering stem

Tag T-2 handlebars

Pep EZ-pull hydraulic clutch

JB Racing +2 swing arm

RV racing dual row bearing carrier

Renthal 590 R1 race chain

AC racing nerf bars, front bumper, skid plates

Pro-Design shifter and kill switch

4 different combinations of tires and wheels.

And you're right... the quad kills just about ANY car from 0 to 60... then I run out of gears! But it's usually far enough ahead that by the time a 1/4 mile is up... I'm still ahead!!!

Edit: the engine...

Trenga Racing 240 big bore stage 3 ported/polished cylinderTranga planed headKeihin 36mm AirStryker race carbLRD adjustable expansion exhaustV'Force Delta II reed cage and reedsCRM intakeForged/blanced crankWiseco PistonHot Rod's connecting rodHigh compression Cometic gasketsHyrdaulic clutch6 speed

[PoorManQ45]

How much did all your Quad modifications cost? How much was the Quad itself?

[MaineExport]

How much did all your Quad modifications cost? How much was the Quad itself?

The Quad only retails for $3300. It starts out as a Yamaha YFS 200

The 240 upgrade to a YFS 240, plus the rest of the mods was another $10,000 in parts.

[skydragoness]

Bubba you certainly made a good point about being in neutral when you coast to a stop. One makes themself a bit vulnerable when slowing down at a light. Normally what i do, when coming to a redlight (when in 5th gear), i down shift to 4th and usually 3rd, and then put it in neutral (because at that point i'm already close to coming to a complete stop).

As i see it, as long as your rev-match while you downshift, and run a good transmission fluid, downshifting thru the gears to come to a stop is not bad.

[nismofly]

actually my point in the first place was that he says he sits at the light with the clutch in, thats not necessary. always shift into neutral when sitting at a light, and let off the clutch, then shift back into 1st when you start.(obviously) of course, i engine brake too, by downshifting though, not just letting off the gas in like 5th or 4th gear

[Dirtylou]

I think everyone has their own driving preference or technique. Me personally, I learned and been practicing rev-matching in my truck so now I rev-match all the time. I think it's funny when people hear me downshifting and they see a truck come around the corner.Also, I coast when I'm running on fumes or I'm just pulling a gansta creep.lol

[skydragoness]

actually my point in the first place was that he says he sits at the light with the clutch in, thats not necessary. always shift into neutral when sitting at a light, and let off the clutch, then shift back into 1st when you start.(obviously) of course, i engine brake too, by downshifting though, not just letting off the gas in like 5th or 4th gear

of course! it's moronic to have you foot on the clutch for anything over 10 sec. it's murder on the clutch. and like mainexport said, i had it deeply ingrained into my mind to never rest your foot on the cluth or hold it down unless you intend on shifting in the next 5 seconds. so it's a fear-induced thing i guess.

[madbouncy]

Wow, I've never actually heard any of that stuff before. My friends and I all drive manuals because they're cheaper or we have ADD and need something besides talking on cell phone to do during driving. I learned to drive a manual from my friend who was learning to drive a manual so neither of us had any experience. Does leaving the clutch in during a light really make that much of a difference? Doesn't seem like 10 seconds is very long and it's not doing much. My friend always said it was strange that I put it in neutral whenever I stopped. Though I never said anything to him because I figured it was preference. Then again, my original plans for stopping usually consisted of hitting stuff, hence why my first car lasted about 9 months or so. It bothers me now to coast to a stop, it just feels like i have to push the brake harder than normal, it bothers me when I have to push the pedals hard for any reason. Which is great for the winter and I have to sit there stomping my clutch while the car warms up so it can come up at least somewhat fast and not just slowly move back up.

I don't know if that total shift thing would work, because if you could rev-match perfectly and pretty much never used the synchros I thought the cluch would last longer than if you just slammed it into gear as fast as possible everytime. It seems like whenever I hear about trannies going out it's the synchros so I figured that was the thing to get the most wear.

[MinisterofDOOM]

It's not possible to double clutch into reverse when you're moving forward. You can only double into reverse when going backward, and vice versa. Just wanted to point that out.

Anyway.. double clutching is cool yo. I always tend to rev match every down-shift, just so I can feel like uber-race car driver.

Er......

Moving forward, slowing down, in first. Clutch in, into neutral. Complete stop. Won't go into reverse yet because things don't match up, and reverse has no synchros (I don't think so, anyway. And if it does, they suck, because it won't go into that gear). Clutch out. Matches things up. Clutch in. Into reverse, smooth as butter.

I believe that's double clutching right there. Doesn't matter what gear you are leaving and which you're going into, what matters is how the clutch is used to match up the components.

[Ligouri Rd]

Quote »it's murder on the clutch. and like mainexport said[/quote]..its not exactly murder but over a long time it puts wear on the throw-out bearing that doesn't need to happen. With the clutch disengaged the throw-out bearing is constantly running against the pressure plate. It is only meant to do that for short periods of time during shifts. I used to be guilty of the same habit, before I properly adjusted my clutch the only way to get (reliably) into first was to push into that gear while rolling to a stop. I would then stay in that gear until the light changed...I guess it didn't dawn on me to try second and then back to first when things felt tight.

Anyway back to the heel toe thing, I used to use the technique only for racing. I did the same as the one guy earlier said stepping on the brake with the left side of the foot and rolling over to the gas with the right side of that foot. The problem in daily driving was that I could only do this while standing on the brake and braking hard. My mazda requires you to rev match when you downshift to 2nd. So I found another technique. You press on the brake with the ball of the foot and turn the foot so your toes point towards the passenger side (or outside the car for JDM/UK folk). I found i can easily modulate the brake for slower stops and push the toes down on the gas at to smoothly get into gear and accellerate out of a corner. I tend to neutral coast a lot to save gas and the crappy (or so i'm told) mazda clutch. One of the beneifts of racing and learning racing techniques is developing a quicker reaction to what happens around ya. Ya end up with more experience and contol over the car, so I don't see a darn thing wrong with using those same techniques on the daily grind.

[hannibal]

Someone mentioned shifting into first while braking for a light.I never put the car in first while its still moving. I thought that was a no-no.

[nismofly]

you can, but you have to be going like less than 10mph, so the only time i do it is when im like pulling into my driveway or something of that nature...pulling into uphill driveway at slow speed, car actually bogs if i leave it in 2nd

[Bubba1]

Shifting into first while rolling is not really a recommended practice, but it's easily done , as the synchronizers make it happen without fuss or damage. It's more of a rule for older unsynchronized cars as you have to double clutch to get into first if you're rolling. Kinda annoying. If you've ever driven an unsynchronized vehicle, the rule will make more sense. As far as one's transmission having a limited number of shifts. I think how the transmission is treated and maintained are by far bigger factors that determine the life expectancy of a transmission than the number of shifts made. If you're abusive , like drag racing, drifting, power shifting, etc., the car's transmission will not last nearly as long as somone who makes more frequent but correct shifts. In other words it's the quality of the use, not the quantity. I wouldn't advise avoiding a downshift to just save wear on a transmission. That transmission will last a looong time if it's treated well.