Have anyone experience problems after dropping their M

[cobblecanyon]

with Tein or Eibach springs?

Trying to figure out the pros/cons of dropping the M with springs only.

Thanks in advance for any infor.............

[07sportm35]

I actually did my drop myself. It took about 5 hours total(no air tools). Zero noises. Zero issues.

[Q45tech]

Dropping the body from oem height changes the entire suspension system parameters. To restore dynamics you must replace and change mount locations of every component.

Most cheat with adjustable components but that does NOT correct the tie rod angles or camber, caster, toe GAIN CURVES, so you end up with different bump steer and braking situations.

[cobblecanyon]

Dropping the body from oem height changes the entire suspension system parameters. To restore dynamics you must replace and change mount locations of every component.

Most cheat with adjustable components but that does NOT correct the tie rod angles or camber, caster, toe GAIN CURVES, so you end up with different bump steer and braking situations.

With all that being said, would you recommend a spring drop only? or JIC or Tein Coilovers? Or just leave the car alone. Would a spring drop decrease the life of the parts (suspensions, camber, alignment, etc..) associated with the car?

I spoke to a trusted local mechanic who have been in the business for 25+ yrs working on cars/trucks of all make/model. He runs a huge shop down the street where I work. He dropped his Ford F150 truck 4 inches, I asked him if I drop using Eibach springs, would that damage my suspensions etc......and his replied was...as long as the guy knows what he is doing, you will be ok. He also stated, after dropping the car using Eibach springs, get an alignment and I will be ok. I will not have any long term problems.

Unless there's a ASE Certified mechanic here who can object to the comment above,,,,that dropping a car using springs only will create future problems with suspensions, camber, etc......

Sorry in advance if I am repeating history by creating a new thread here, I did a search and couldn't find the answer to my question. Wanted to find an answers and experience comments on this board so I can draw my own conclusion on whether I should leave my car as is...or drop it using Eibach springs only or Tein Flex coilovers.

[fiveliterbeater]

with Tein or Eibach springs?

Trying to figure out the pros/cons of dropping the M with springs only.

Thanks in advance for any infor.............

...can't speak for the M (although i will follow suit very soon. thanx 07sportM35 for pointing me towards TeinHTs ) , but i have dropped every car i have ever owned and never EVER had a problem. and i'm very abusive towards my cars when it comes to handling. i love to push the car to its limits once in awhile in the turns. Q45tech is right about the parameters changing, but nothing you will notice and nothing you need to trouble yourself at night over. just make sure your alignments are checked every 10-12k miles to make sure all is within spec and once in awhile check the treadwear on your tires to make sure you don't have any un-even wear. if you start having that, THEN , you have a problem. Unitl then, your buddy at your shop is right. make sure it's done right and you'll be fine.

[jankenpo30]

Tein H Tech springs, no problems.

Remember you are talking .75 of inch on mine. I think S techs are 1" and 1.3" in rear. If you were slamming the car 2+ inches, I'd worry. Don't worry over anything an inch or less. The pure mathematics of engineering alone allows for tolerances. If the tolerances were that tight on these vehicles, they'd be worth waaay more than 45k brand new. Suspensions that are built to be thrown wildly off by .75" were of drop, race on Sundays and only make left turns.

But yes, invest in a lifetime alignment agreement with a local shop. I get mine aligned every 5k...but mostly because I run a staggered setup and can't rotate my wheels.

[07sportm35]

This is definetly the most conservative high performance forum I have experienced.

"Oh God you're changing the the geometry from what the forefathers intended it to be"...by 1.3 inches!!! Hell, avoid sharp turns, speeding, and bumps because this will decrease your cars life span.

You can stay indoors and live a little longer, or go out and grab the bull by the horns so-to speak(actually don't do that).

Fact: With a few handling Mods you can get these M's to kick butt on BM'sW.

Furthermore, that tucked in tail between the skinny legs look with front high waters is for the birds in my opinon. All for a few extra miles.

This is how the M35 should rest. Lower, more level, with big azz feet...

Meeow--before

Woof, woof---after

[fiveliterbeater]

This is how the M35 should rest. Lower, more level, with big azz feet...

ok.......no need to rub it in that you have one of the best looking M's on here!!!! showoff!!!!

P.S. you should look into de-badging your car, i think it would make the rear a little more interesting
Modified by fiveliterbeater at 10:31 PM 6/15/2009

[fiveliterbeater]

This is definetly the most conservative high performance forum I have experienced."Oh God you're changing the the geometry from what the forefathers intended it to be"...by 1.3 inches!!! Hell, avoid sharp turns, speeding, and bumps because this will decrease your cars life span.You can stay indoors and live a little longer, or go out and grab the bull by the horns so-to speak(actually don't do that).

shhhhhhhh! are you crazy???? you can't say stuff like that on these forums! we will be cast as outsiders and banned from returning! some of these old timers still like to think the earth is flat and the sun revovles around the earth. lets not upset them!

[07sportm35]

shhhhhhhh! are you crazy???? you can't say stuff like that on these forums! we will be cast as outsiders and banned from returning! some of these old timers still like to think the earth is flat and the sun revovles around the earth. lets not upset them!

And your shhhhhhing is exacerbating the aforementioned and would definetly cause us to be walked to the edge of earth and be thrown overboard.

BTW Mods: I have no affiliation with beatdownfive whatsoever. I'm the well behaved one.

Great idea on the debadge!

[cobblecanyon]

Thank you for the comments and education. Looks like I am dropping my M. I paid $47K for mine and wasn't gonna get too crazy with it. Just a nice drop with Tein Springs and Work Gnosis staggered setup running on Michelins.

BTW....great forum!!

[szh]

shhhhhhhh! are you crazy???? you can't say stuff like that on these forums! we will be cast as outsiders and banned from returning! some of these old timers still like to think the earth is flat and the sun revovles around the earth. lets not upset them!

What? You ... mean ... the Earth is NOT flat? WHO changed that and WHEN? I wanna know - heads are gonna roll!!!



Believe me, us old-timers do not have problems with people doing whatever they want to with their cars. It is just that people assume automatically that all the things that people do will improve their car in every way, all the time, no questions asked, with perfect results!!

For example, large wings will create downforce (not at the speeds we usually drive), wider tires will increase the grip (the contact area stays the same, and friction is mostly unchanged), aerodynamic parts will dramatically improve the airflow and gas mileage (effects are generally minor ... at best), lowering springs will improve lateral grip and handling (more often than not, it makes the suspension dynamics change enough to make things a bit worse and road bumps and curves feel different), wide wheels with stretched tires have better handling (actually, they are damn unsafe and could seriously cramp your style if they came off the bead at the wrong moment).

Our old-fart point is always: "Try to fully understand the outcome of the change(s) you are making". And, then, if that outcome is acceptable to you, go for it! More power to you - pun intended!

For me, things that do not dramatically improve the power/handling/performance with an acceptable ride comfort and acceptable compromise on vehicle longevity, are things that I would not do to my car. So, I spend money on tires, not wheels. I spend money on changing my oil often, not trying to extend it too far. I spend money on changing the air filter often, not by installing an oiled K&N.

Dennis (Q45tech) is in a sorta similar camp. His goal for his cars is to make them perform (power availability, handling, etc.) as well as possible - given the original design intent and design parameters. For example, the look of the car are completely secondary to him - to any other person who lusts after the VIP car look, this would be anathema, right?

Z

[07sportm35]

As far as I know there isn't anybody in the "M" forum with wings or stretched tires. I totally agree with on most fronts.

Fact: My car is much safer due to the much improved precise handling. The lack of tramlining is huge. Bumpsteer is much better than stock. And to able to take your hands off the wheel at freeway speeds on slanted highways while remaining strait speaks volumes on the cars improved stability. We all want our cars to look good but of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Before I went to 20's I test fitted a similar wheel/tire setup to test the ride quality amongst other things. Then drove hundreds of miles (Vegas baby). I was amazed out how much more solid the car felt.

For all things remaining equal a lowered car performs better. What you lose is suspension travel which is a factor in road imperfections. And you're not at the optimized height of your dampeners. Hence a mild drop to maintain close to the factory's dampener intended range.

The sport version has a higher spring rate. Tein HT's actually produced the same ride quality along with slightly improved handling.

Heavier wheels are definetly more stressful on a cars suspension being unsprung weight and all. But to what percentage?

Lower offsets also add stress. Again to what percentage? My biggest concern was the offset on my front wheels. Going from +50mm to +43mm in the rear is small. The fronts another story going from +50mm to +35mm (compromise). Handling as well as stress on ball joints and bushings will be effected. The net result however is a much improved handling car with supple ride quality. And to me it looks good.

You succinctly addressed this in a previous post which I appreciated. Scrub radius is a interesting subject.

It's great this site has the voice of reason in you.

[SteveTheTech]

There is a right and wrong way to modify anything. One of the things I really like about the crowd here is that you all are old enough to do research for the most part.

Hurley is a prime example of the great things that can be done to personalize your car while focusing on enhancing an already good platform, tastefully. Those really are some great pics, there. I like the attention to detail, and silver instead of chrome is a win.

The Eibachs drop the front 1.5" and the rear is ~3/4 I think, it sounds significant but with some spacers it looks really clean. The Tien drop is more in the front than the Eibachs. It is a matter of preference although long term durability is left up to the other owners to report in. Maybe we need an official suspension review thread.

At the end of the day though the cold truth is that it is nothing but a car. If you want to put springs on it for any reason and have the means to do it safely by all means make the best out of your investment. Dropping a car like this will average about 1 degree increase in negative camber, the ripple effects of that are manageable and not dangerous (as the products are very popular). I find the drop impacting trambling concerns very interesting. I will have to take a look at that tomorrow. Without adding 20s that may improve (without the effects of the large rims) the ride quality for some with 18s (larger sidewall) ? Does anyone here have that setup?

[cobblecanyon]

Dropping a car like this will average about 1 degree increase in negative camber, the ripple effects of that are manageable and not dangerous (as the products are very popular). I find the drop impacting trambling concerns very interesting. I will have to take a look at that tomorrow.

I've been searching for a cambit kit for the M35 for quite sometime,,,not many manufactures or aftermarket cambit kit for the M35. If I was going to do a springs drop, than a cambit kit would be necessary,,,,either that or spend $2K on Tein Flex coilovers.

Bottom line, I am still debating whether I should spend more $$$ on the Tein Flex coilovers,,,or just leave it stock with my new 19" Work Gnosis running 245/40/19 front and 275/35/19 rear,,,,,or until there is a cambit kit for the M35 so I can have that install with the Eibach springs drop. I believe the car will still look nice while maintaining the factory specs.

Not much into Chrome wheels or VIP for that matter. Some ppl can go overboard but personally,,,I prefer a clean simple look and keep it as close to factory settings as possible.

I am about as conservative as they come, last thing I want is a car that look like a spaceship or ghetto, but than again, it's all personal taste.

Thanks again for all the great information.

[maxnix]

If you are doing it for dynamic performance improvement, tires are 90% of that equation.

If you are doing it for static looks, that won't help your car last any longer or maintain its performance level like the same expenditure on preventative maintenance will.

Know your goals and the intended results.

Suspension component travel and angles are optimized by the OEM engineers, as Q45tech has mentioned. And annoying fender gap and uncool for the homey fashonistas static stock look is never noticeable from the driver's seat when the vehicle is being driven.

Dynamic function or static fashion? Your choice!

[07sportm35]

Thanks for the kind words Steve. I appreciate your open mind. And true it's just a car.

I enjoy a good debate. It's a opportunity to learn. There are some very bright folks on this forum like yourself. When you guys chime in I listen.

It's fun for me when there is action/opinions on this forum. Just like when a certain moderator chimed in on scrub radius. Things became clear. I immediately altered my thinking around the subject as I have personally seen the ill effects of going too far with offsets(the Maxima I use to own).The suspension became less responsive. It really shortened the life of my CV joints. The car was not as fun to drive. Oh but the car looked better (the only positive). Definetly was not worth it in that situation.

Fortunetly a rear wheel drive has certain adavantages with regard to the front end. No CV joints. No drive shafts. The struts do not rotate with the steering(huge). So I am hoping the long term prognosis is far more reliable.

Time will tell...

[07sportm35]

Putting bigger rims (in my case 1 inch) usually means putting lower profile (i.e. shorter side wall) tires on and the low profile tires will usually improve the handling. This is due to car manufacturers taking into consideration ride smoothness etc and not just handling. Most sports cars will already have big rims with low profile tires, where as family cars or 4wd's will have high profile tires to improve ride quality. Simply putting low profile tires on a car can hugely increase its handling ability.

Furthermore, the abundance of tires is much improved for 20's as oppose to 19's, and the cost is less.

OEM Engineers are a slave to the largest percentage of consumers. They optimize the cars on that basis. Most M35 drivers want the smoothest ride possible and don't really appreciate road feel, handling, and a car that rolls less on sharp turns.

BMW drivers are much more appreciative in this regard. I chose the "M" to get better creature comforts and far better value, as well as it's ability to be easily transformed into a handling beast while looking good from the outside.

I love this car!

[SteveTheTech]

I have to agree with the above statement. Although you are altering your ride height and subsequent alignment angles. Most of you guys are into an overkill level of maintenance so rotating your tires at every oil change is not too much of a hassel. This also brings up another concern I would like to take a second to address.

Yet again I am harping on aesymetrical tires. Something that can be cross rotated will even out the inner shoulder wear that comes from averaging ~2.0 degrees of negative camber. This is the way the old G35 coupes were setup they tend to chew through the inner side and cause helatious feather edging. Often discount tires with cheap tread compositions are the worst offenders so a good set of tires with small inner edge tread blocks will give you the best results for overall ride quality and comfort over the full life of the tire. /rant

At the end of the day it comes down to a few key points. -Price-(what your budget can handle without compromising safety)-Goal-(looks vs performance vs what you want the car to be)-Functionality-( ride quality, handling, long term wear potential)-Preference- (coilovers or springs)

Of course changing the entire coil over in the front and shock in the back (I'm guessing) will have the greatest impact on the road feel of your car. From the limited experience I have with lowered Ms they tend to do pretty well and I think the look of one that has been done correctly is awesome. If I were ever to get an 06+ M I would be all over that. Personally I am not one of those guys who detests wheel gap, that is not my main objective and I am all for functionallity over looks. The results are well worth it in this case. It is a quick easy way to add something to your car without spending crazy amounts of money.

There isn't really much else you can do to them M without making your own stuff and the M really deserves better than that. I doubt any of you have read some of my earlier stuff here regarding modding things like suspension. I was fairly hard line against it but I have started to come around in realizing that the options out there have come a long way and are now better engineered to match the OE style meaning their overall long term durability should be increased.

You made mention of trashing a Max, these cars are pretty easy to ruin. Front wheel drive cars do not take changing of operating angels well at all. Hypothetically speaking, If you think about the normal angles the axles are constantly spinning (usually no more than 2-3degrees of total angle) and decreased that the axle is going to have to work significantly harder from it's new position. The Constant Velocity type joints. are not very flexible to altered operating angles.

Ugk I've gotta get to work.... well I have replace two steering racks (1 M35x and one EX) and on set of steering column motors. Then it is off for the rest of the day trying to hunt down the illusive hesitation at 40mph in the EX. Mmmm the fun that shall be had. It beats actual work though. Oh I was just informed that the VP of Infiniti and his boys will be in our dealer today, that could be an experience.

Have a good one guys, sorry about the grammer the spell check and coffee are not quite working yet.

[Backdoc7]

07sportm35 and Steve Tech,

You two are way more technical about these issues than I.. that being said,

07sportM35, after the tein HT springs, did get the car aligned? I'm pretty sure you did, did the person that did the alignment tell you how much negative camber was there (or adjusted out if it's possible to adjust it out). Just thinking back at some of the lowered car's I've had (bmw 545, e class benz, rt/10 viper), handling was always improved (the benz had the most improvment), tire life is usually quite a bit less (had to flip the tires on the benz after the tread wore to about 50%, since they were staggered in size), and ride quality was improved (by improved I mean, less sway when cornering, less dive when hard braking etc). Sure, its a little "stiffer" when hitting pot holes etc, but the shorter sidewall has as much to do with that I think that the drop in suspension does..

I think on my M45, I'm going with the moderate Tein HT drop as opposed to the more aggressive eibach drop, even though i've had nothing but good things to say about eibach products in general. I guy I use to do suspension and wheel work on my cars suggested the eibach's over the Tein's just on his experience, but I think the moderate drop is better suited for this car. Will do some before and after pic's and posts them when done. 07sportm35, don't be surprised if you see my pictures with the MRR gt1's in hypersilver.. your pic's were very influencing on my decision.. and they have a silver one lowered with 20" gt1's in their gallery.. plus my wheels guy here in so. cal is an MRR dealer and I can't say no to his price for the springs, wheels/tires (falken 452's I think) installed. The car will look and feel like a different car when I'm done for sure. btw, I know the wheel gap doesn't bother most people and that's just a subjective thing, but its the first thing my eyes went to when I started looking at M's. excuse the spelling, in a rush (in between patients), back to work! Good thread! Let me know about the camber.

Bill.

[07sportm35]

Yes I did have the car aligned after the drop. I don't have the Specs but I will this weekend when I get it done again. With the new wheels and tires I don't want to take any chances.

Copying is the greatest form of flattery. Thanks.

Hopefully you're as happy with the results as I am. I have Toyo T1R's for tires on mine. The Falken 452's are great value.

MMR is coming out real soon (if not already) a 20 inch by 8.5 inch +40mm offset wheel to satisfy so called japanese car manufacturers. I have +35mm in the front. +40mm will be a little closer to factory Specs in terms of offsets. Something to think about...

[07sportm35]

Oh yeah. I appreciate you mentioning me in the same sentence as Steve Tech but he is the true guru. I am just a squirrel looking for a nut.

I just read alot.

The rear suspension on our cars is multilink. Check this out to see how it works...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilink_suspension

Our front suspension is double wishbone. Used exclusively on race cars. Considered the best for controlling camber(keeping wheels perpendicular to the road).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_wishbone

[Backdoc7]

I understand the necessity to keep close to the factory specs and all, but dang if they don't look better out closer to the fender..

How are you liking the tire size's you went with.. if one can like such a thing.. what i mean is, what are the other options... 245/40/20 and 275/35/20 would look? might ride a little better with a little more sidewall.. I'll probably still go 245/35/20 and 275/30/20 though.. On a side note, my Viper has 345/25/18's on the back and it doesnt even look like a really low profile tire. but at 275, it will look really low profile im sure.. let us know how it alignes! thanks, Bill

[07sportm35]

Rather than 245/40's, and 275/35', you'd be better off (and your speedometer) with 255/35's and 285/30's--for a little more sidewall.

Don't forget you're dropping the car and rubbing is not good. Add to it kids in the rear and even worse, grownups(Americans are gaining weight).

Anyway I think the tire sizes I mentioned are a plus+plus. The additional meat will look nice and maintain tire to wheel width Specs.

[SteveTheTech]

(falken 452's I think)

Let me know about the camber.

If there is another option for the tire choice I think you may have better luck, especially if you stagger the wheels. Something you can rotate from side to side makes a world of difference throughout the life of the tire. That is not speaking to the performance aspect but the observed wear patterns on suspensions with similar setups. There will be initial savings but if they are allowed to wear in a certain direction they tend to get noisy.

Camber on a members M45 (M45Owners great looking white on black 06) that was lowered using the Eibach springs was almost exactly decreased by 1 degree. However as mentioned above by some, the trambling effects may be effected due to the ~2.0 degree increase in caster. On the one I had today the road feel is not altered too much, although the working angles are altered slightly the end result is a more aggressive response and ride quality. Plus it actually looks really good. I will post the results of a comparison test I performed today using a stock M35x and a lowered M45. It is not a scientifically valid test, but they have the exact (within 300) mileage and common driving routes. I forgot to measure the wheelbase and distance on the M35 (it was really early) and that was more work than research.

I will post the alignment results if you guys have any interest. Well and if I either find the driver disc for my scanner or a working color scanner with an internet connection which seems harder to find today than I thought.

On a side note the replacement steering rack in the M35x is a great success. I drove one today about 10 miles after replacing it's rack and pinion trying to compare the old and new models to see if I can notice any difference. There was nothing significant I can report, except for some initial stiffness which I would attribute to a brand new rack and pinion that still has the stickers attached. It is a great thing to see this resolved with perfect results.

[szh]

Rather than 245/40's, and 275/35', you'd be better off (and your speedometer) with 255/35's and 285/30's--for a little more sidewall.

And, as always, make sure that the load index is 95 or higher ... preferably 98 or better! our cars are heavy, and too low a load index (as is typical for many 20" tire sizes) could be downright dangerous, or the tires will experience internal damage far faster than you would like.

Internal damage, with belts shifting, etc., leads to continuous tire balance problems (tires will not stay balanced) and road/braking vibrations way too quickly.

Z

[Backdoc7]

Rather than 245/40's, and 275/35', you'd be better off (and your speedometer) with 255/35's and 285/30's--for a little more sidewall.

Don't forget you're dropping the car and rubbing is not good. Add to it kids in the rear and even worse, grownups(Americans are gaining weight).

Anyway I think the tire sizes I mentioned are a plus+plus. The additional meat will look nice and maintain tire to wheel width Specs.

I think i'll go with 245/35/20 and 275/30/20's. How's the speedometer on your's? Also, Tein doesnt seem to have springs for the M45, just the M35. Do you happen to know if they are the same spring for the 45 as the 35 off hand?

Steve, Thanks for the reply. Sounds like you like the eibachs.. I'd be interested in your opinion on the Tein HT's (luxuary drop) if you have any experience.. or if you don't, they are a slightly less drop from my understanding than the eibachs, which theoredicallly, should offer less of a change to the camber/caster etc correct? Regarding the tire choice, aren't most higher performace tires unidirectional? I'm "used" to having the tires "flipped" about half way through their life.. not sure if that's "proper" or not, but I know its common for a staggered setup with high performance tires. I will look around for other tire choices, but if you have a non-unidirectional tire high performance tire im mind, i'm all ears!

Thanks!

Bill.

[Backdoc7]

Never really looked at load for a car tire.. but thanks, I will.

[07sportm35]

Speedometer is almost perfect. Use this calculator... http://www.1010tires.com/TireSizeCalculator.asp

The 245/35/20 load index for our tires is 95.

The 275/30/20 load index for our tires is 97.

More sidewall generally gives you a higher index.

For instance 255/35/20 is 97.285/30/20 is 98.

Sidewall= width times profile.

[szh]

The 245/35/20 load index for our tires is 95.

The 275/30/20 load index for our tires is 97.

Good values!

Z