Grounding kit

[reyes1212]

There's one on ebay for our Versas and I was thinking of getting it since I don't know what happened to the guy that was working on making one for us on this forum.What are your guys' opinions.

[blindsnyper]

i dont think its designed for the versa, but it may work

[WORKS89]

It could be good. I dont see how it could hurt. I've seen these help a lot on a large variaty of cars. Usually it makes the car run smoother, lights seem brighter, audio seems nicer, some have claimed increase life on the battery and altenater, and some cars have actually seen a small HP and TQ increase, but its rare. Some people also see no difference at all.

I say buy it if you've got the extra cash. Be sure to let us know what your results are.

[WORKS89]

forgot to add that I did know someone that claimed to have a bad expierence with one one his 300zx, but at the time he had a lot of stuff going wrong so we weren't able to prove that it was the grounding kit, but could be a possibility.

[l80_240]

grounding kits never hurt anything, your car runs on grounds, more grounds wont hurt and as for a kit, they are pretty universal, few points that should be grounded but as for a kit its just pre-cut lines for a specific vehicle, easy to adapt, and the stock Versa has kinda crappy grounds anyway to start with, i have not dynoed my car but Ive used ground kits on 3 of my cars before and they all have made the lights not dim so much and seem to be more responsive, but i will say that quality of the wire can make a difference and location. try to keep it away from the exhaust manifold because copper will become more solid and flow less when heated. good locations are near the head or on the head like the intake manifold or other part of the head, the negative terminal on the battery, usually a new chassis ground like the strut tower and firewall and also the alternator, the block, the exhaust itself but youll need a ss strap for that, throttle body, starter, there are many spots and every car is differnt so you can play around with it to find out. hope this helps

[reyes1212]

what would work best? if they are in a series like negative lead to firewall to transmission to strut? or would (lik in the ground kit) one common ground point for all the other ones?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ZWDVW

[Bubs daddy]

A fool and his money are soon parted.

[Vahagn23]

I bought one for the V from a local car store. I went on a trip to CALI from NY, by the time I got to cali the rubber was scrapped off.

[reyes1212]

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Because 4 or lower gauge is VERY expensive...

>.>yeah a fool alright

>.>

sarcasm

[feloniousmonk]

Spend the time to learn more about cars and electrical systems. Such things are nothing more than snake oil. But if you must, you can easily make a grounding kit yourself with car audio ground cables and ring terminals. All you need is a vise, sturdy wire cutters and a crimping tool. Foolish to pay what people are charging for "pre-made" kits. Just look for existing bolt/screw locations on the block and ground those to existing holes on the chassis. Not exactly rocket science. Measure twice, cut once, crimp, crimp, done. If you don't have access to a work bench vise, you can improvise with a C-clamp and some elbow grease.

[reyes1212]

HECK YES!

[Sentientbydesign]

Spend the time to learn more about cars and electrical systems. Such things are nothing more than snake oil. But if you must, you can easily make a grounding kit yourself with car audio ground cables and ring terminals. All you need is a vise, sturdy wire cutters and a crimping tool. Foolish to pay what people are charging for "pre-made" kits. Just look for existing bolt/screw locations on the block and ground those to existing holes on the chassis. Not exactly rocket science. Measure twice, cut once, crimp, crimp, done. If you don't have access to a work bench vise, you can improvise with a C-clamp and some elbow grease.

The cost of the [proper] tools alone cost more that what we "snake oil" salesmen charge for these kits.

Grounding kits that ground the engine to the strut tower or firewall are funny and pointless.

Also consider that 4 gauge OFC wholesales for about $150 per 100' roll. Most audio shops will want to charge you $2.25-$6/ft for the good stuff.

With that said, how much are the eBay kits going for? $5? + $20 shipping?

10' 4 gauge OFC + 10 copper ring terminals + shrink tubing = $22 (wholesale).

That doesn't include assembling the cables. Usually what you get on eBay is Aluminum "4 gauge" (closer to 8 gauge) of generic lengths with super stiff jackets that melt under light heat.

[Bubs daddy]

What is being claimed for installing this? If it's performance, I will continue to be skeptical until verifiable results are posted or documented.

Until then, this is a product that doesn't prove it will do anything but relieve someone of their money.

[williamk10]

Until then, this is a product that doesn't prove it will do anything but relieve someone of their money.

Isn't that the case for most things available for the Versa? I replaced the grounding cables on my 13 year told car a few years ago and I noticed improved performance and brighter headlights. I also replaced the stock battery with an Optima redtop and it helped as well. However, I don't beleive it would help much for the Versa as it is still such a new car. Think of it as engine dress up, but not lame like cable covers.

[Bubs daddy]

Improved Performance? In what way?

[williamk10]

Smoother performance from the engine. The engine revved faster and accelerated faster as well.

[Bubs daddy]

You're saying the engine accelerated faster because it's ground with bigger wires? Sounds like the sugar pill effect. One can understand gaining horsepower with increased airflow and exhaust. Large or small gains, this has been proven.

I'm trying to understand how an electrical ground would make your car run faster. The ECU is programmed to do a wide variety of calculations. A ground will not change those calculations or instructions.

It may reduce electrical noise, perhaps allow the lights not to dim when there's another load, that sort of thing. But from what I've read, everything is anecdotal. No independent tests or dynos that prove anything. Anyone can say anything to try to sell a product.

Why do you think that so many products are sold as "natural" products? Because they don't have to stand up to rigorous testing methods and FDA approval. All they have to do is have someone "say" it works. "This pill actually increase memory!" But upon reading the disclaimers, your results may vary.

If one is to make a claim that this grounding actually makes cars run faster (how small that may be), I would need to see evidence proving that. Verification. Until then, I won't be convinced by hearsay and subjective internet claims.

[Sentientbydesign]

I love how FDA testing is "rigorous", yet SO many very dangerous drugs make it onto the market every day.

Go search "Depo Provera horror stories" and you'll see what I mean. That drug has been on the market for over a decade now and I don't see the FDA pulling it. I could list quite a few others, but I don't have the time.

Consider this analogy. Have you ever lived in an old house? Say turn of the century? If you have, you're more than likely aware of the water pressure problems that exist (replumbing with copper doesn't apply). Turn on the sprinklers and the shower dribbles out. Flush the toilet while the washing machine is rinsing and your "poop" doesn't flush (not really as the tank has a reserve of water, but it was funny to say).

The same thing can happen with a poorly grounded car (even brand new ones). The simple circuits on the car all use 1 common "wire" to connect the circuit...the chassis. Sometimes this works just fine, other times there are resistance problems, noise...etc.

I'm going to be doing a 2nd try at designing a kit for the Versa. I've sold 2 of them so far and only to testers with a full money-back option, but neither has contacted me for their money back. On the flip side, I didn't get any rave reviews either.

That itself should say something about grounding kits and me. If I'm honest enough to offer a money back to my testers AND not sell this kit publicly, I must be honest. Also, if ALL of my other customers (Altima, G35, 350Z, FX35...etc) come back with positive feedback and the 2 Versa testers don't, that means that grounding kits CAN make a difference, just not for all cars

[dee_tymz_sl]

grounding kits never hurt anything, your car runs on grounds, more grounds wont hurt ....

You are correct- Your car already runs on ground....

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I second that notion. Unless something happens to the grounding on my car then maybe it would be time to consider alternative but until then this sounds pretty foolish to me.

[Bubs daddy]

My point is that the is no verifiable evidence to suggest that grounding makes the car faster. No documented, unbiased, comparitive testing. These are all just internet claims. They are anecdotal. They are "It feels faster."

There is no doubt that the electrical system CAN or MAY be more efficient if more robust grounding wires are installed on the vehicle. That doesn't necessarily transfer into more bhp or torque of the drivetrain.

Many drugs long term affects are not known until over time. Those can't obviously be known until the drug is used over time. Because some drugs negative affects are not known or don't reveal themselves until later cannot dismiss the attempt to verify as much information as they can.

Many cars are designed, built, tested, and then mass manufactured have defects discovered later while on the road. That happens. Some things don't reveal themselves until other conditions are met. That doesn't mean you stop testing and quality control.

The original poster asked what our opinion was. This is my opinion. They are not worth the money until there is data that verifies any claims of increased performance. Independent identical dynomometer testing of the same car, same conditions (elevation, outside temperature and barometer) with and without the grounding kit installed. A series of testing would be preferable.

I'm glad you have satisfied customers. But I believe many to be young and naive and not knowledgeable enough not to know that gains in some areas (less dimming headlights, less audio noise) does not necessarily translate into power gains through the engine, transmission and other drive train components.

I think the money saved on a grounding kit is better spent on proven performance parts such as fuel management controllers, intake and exhaust components and other products that have been verifiably shown to increase bhp, torque and other performance factors.

My views on doing this to the Versa are already known. I say, save your money on all of that and buy a different car that doesn't have such a limited scope and window of potential performance gains.

But this particular section deals with tuning modifications so I'm addressing it as the post asked for opinions on this product. Again, my opinion is that this type of product has more anecdotal claims than proven results.

[Sentientbydesign]

There exists 2 problems with "evidence". 1) If I were to invest the hundreds of thousands of dollars needed to have unbiased tests, I would be broke and other companies would use my test results for their own marketing. 2) Even if those tests were done, dyno results can be skewed, no proof can show whether all aspects of before and after were the same...etc.

I'm on the fence as to whether my kits actuall produce more power. Acceleration definitely "feels" faster on my car, but that's not proof. The only interesting anecdotal "evidence" that I got was from a Versa tester who said he was able to sustain a higher speed going uphill than he was prior to the kit install.

Could this be better gas, more optimal air temperature, or a plethora of other possibilities? Yes, but it's possible that the engine was getting better electricity and produced more low end torque too...

[Bubs daddy]

Again, how would the engine perform better through "better electricity?" It doesn't change the ECU calcs or instructions.

These types of products haven't been dyno tested but not because of cost. They haven't been tested because the manufacturer of such kits believe that the results would show no peformance gain at all.

I'm sure it's easier to sell the product with the disclaimer that these grounding kits "may improve performance" than "there were no observable performance gains during extensive testing."

And as far a skewed results-more skewed than hearsay? More skewed than internet claims based on subjective, unscientific, and more often than not, biased guesses? What is more skewed than someone saying "It feels faster now." "How?" I don't know, it just feels faster?"

There is no more skewing than wild, exaggerated claims on the internet. Again, the placebo effect. Someone thinks it's better so they believe it's better. Certainly someone who has spent a hundred dollars on a kit is going to want to believe it's performing better if someone tells them it will perform better.

I'm not saying you're saying that, sentient. I am saying that this whole thing doesn't pass the smell test as far as increased engine peformance. Better electrical system performance? Perhaps. But that doesn't make the CPU change calcs to make the engine run faster. It doesn't increase volumetric efficiency.

How an internal combustion engine can run better simply by adding more and thicker grounding wires sounds dubious at best.

[Sentientbydesign]

If it's not obvious that stable voltage is important to the functionality of a computer, I can't really say much more.

[Bubs daddy]

Stable voltage is indeed, important to the functionality of the computer. But you have not stated how adding grounding wires somehow makes a car go faster.

You can't say much more because it's obvious that this kind of item is in the category of gas pills and other hokum. Explain how this theoretically makes a car go faster. How does a bigger grounding wire do this?

Saying it makes a computer more stable doesn't answer the question. A voltage conditioner can't make my 12X DVD burner burn at 16X.

You can't say much more because you don't understand even theoretically how this would work. Saying that because a car has more grounding points in its electrical system somehow magically makes the car's mechanical internal combustion engine run better without any understanding to why just makes this product look even more suspect.

I just feel sorry for the gullible and naive car enthusiast who would buy such a product. I guess people will believe anything.

[Sentientbydesign]

First off, your condescending attitude can be left at the door.

Second, do I really have to connect all of the dots for you and dance around your argument?

Having stable voltage DOES effect the performance of a computer. Especially since sensors run on electricity. I'm not saying that adding more grounds to a Versa is going to make it faster. I'm just saying that improving the grounds on a poorly grounded system can definitely improve it including HP/TQ.

We aren't talking about physically modifying the car to exceed it's design limitations, we're talking about improving the condition that the car runs in in order to maximize it's design. Try running an OCed CPU on dirty power and you tell me how wonderful your system runs.

And the benefits of grounding kits are usually other performance characteristics, not the HP/TQ that every other product tries to sell. Testing THOSE would be extremely costly. Putting a car on a dyno to measure 5 hp is cheap and full of error.

[Bubs daddy]

Quote »I'm not saying that adding more grounds to a Versa is going to make it faster. I'm just saying that improving the grounds on a poorly grounded system can definitely improve it including HP/TQ.[/quote]What would constitute a poorly grounded system?

I'm not asking this to be flip. I'm asking because this is extremely vague. Poorly grounded meaning the lights are flickering and the car runs intermittently because it's shorting?
Modified by Bubs daddy at 6:47 PM 6/16/2009

[Bubs daddy]

Quote »Having stable voltage DOES effect the performance of a computer.[/quote]The juice coming out of most edison sockets is stable. Adding a line conditioner and expecting significant results from the CPU will be disappointing at best.

We also know that a car is powered by an internal combustion engine. If this was an electric engine, that might be different.

What factors or components have you measured before and after the installation of a grounding kit that shows that the existing grounding system was more unstable than your new grounding system?

My point is, if there are any gains to be made with the installation of this kit, how significant are they?
Modified by Bubs daddy at 6:25 PM 6/16/2009

[Bubs daddy]

Quote »We aren't talking about physically modifying the car to exceed it's design limitations, we're talking about improving the condition that the car runs in in order to maximize it's design.[/quote]How much improvement can be attributed to extra grounding if there is no data or verification to show any improvement? How can you state that it improves a condition without evidence to support your claim?

Again, this is all hearsay. Unsubstantiated, unverifiable and anecdotal.

If anyone is being condescending, it is you and your claim that this is all too obvious for anyone to understand. You give an example of a CPU running on dirty power. How does that translate to making a car that runs on an internal combustion engine go faster by adding extra ground wires? How is that analogous?

The vehicle's onboard ECU is either working on 12V direct current or it isn't. It doesn't suddenly go up to another level of performance because thicker grounding wires are added. If that's the case, then adding ten more wires should make it perform even better.

You claimed it makes your own car run faster. I'm asking how.

[Sentientbydesign]

The grounding kit is designed to complete a circuit more efficiently.

I'd have to go into electrical theory in order to explain it completely, but the goal is to keep electricity flowing without bottlenecking or mixing voltages.

I think you're misunderstanding the goal. Adding more current to the ECU is NOT going to make it run any better, but giving the ECU and sensors electricity that is closer to it's optimal operating voltage DOES help.

We're not talking about a 20 y/o S13 with a handful of sensors, we're talking about cars of today which constantly monitor just about every aspect of the car.

I'll admit that the Versa isn't as "wired" as some of the other cars we've produced kits for and I PERSONALLY DON'T THINK A GROUNDING KIT WILL HELP THE VERSA!!!

However, they do help other vehicles and THAT is what I'm arguing. Also, there seems to be a great demand for a grounding kit on the Versa and if we can squeeze some noticeable performance (read outside the box) from one, then I'm happy to design and offer them. If not, then maybe one of the mods can sticky our findings so others don't try this all over again.

[Bubs daddy]

Quote »However, they do help other vehicles and THAT is what I'm arguing. Also, there seems to be a great demand for a grounding kit on the Versa and if we can squeeze some noticeable performance (read outside the box) from one, then I'm happy to design and offer them. If not, then maybe one of the mods can sticky our findings so others don't try this all over again.[/quote]I can see how they MAY help a cars electrical system to be more, um...grounded. That PERHAPS, may assist in less dimming headlights when a load is placed, maybe reduce noise through ther stereo and other areas of the electrical system.

Translating that to somehow producing more horsepower or torque is pure speculation and in my opinion, grossly misleading. To use just anecdotal claims and internet testimony only makes me more suspicious.

I think this has been discussed enough to leave it to the potential buyer to decide whether or not they think it's worth the investment. They can investigate and research information on their own and make their own conclusions. Hopefully, common sense with a healthy bit of skepticism will prevail.