Ground Wire

[T.O 240sx]

hello everyone, i was just wondering what size wire i should use to ground my amp? i have an Alpine V12 powering 2 10" Kaption, (and I'm using 4 gauge wiring to power the amp). Is bigger better?...or is there a recommended size?any advice would helpthanks!

[PoorManQ45]

Rule of thumb is usually to use the same size ground wire as the power wire.

[Rex]

Meant to post this link last week, sorry

Power/ground wire sizes

[T.O 240sx]

thanks for the info and website Rex... much appreciated, i was using 8 gauge wiring before and was hearing a whining noise coming from the amp... so i figured i had a bad ground and wanted to get rid of it. does it really matter if the connectors are gold plated?... does it make a difference?thanks!

[Rex]

I can guess what PMQ will say about that .

If you've picked up a whine, iot's time to go through everything .

More than likely, if the whine "appeared" after months of silence and you've changed nothing, this may be a tell tale that the alt or battery are going south. How old are yours? How much "load" is your system putting on them?

For give me I ask alot of questions.

[PoorManQ45]

I can guess what PMQ will say about that .

Yep, you sure can guess what I'm gonna say about the gold plated connectors.

It's just a marketing gimmick used to make more money. Gold itself is a very poor connector of electricity relative to copper and silver.

IIRC, gold has a IACS rating of 67% relative to copper. Copper = 100% IACS. Silver is the best conductor with a 107% IACS rating.

I don't understand why all these companies use gold connectors. Gold is currently at ~$450 an Ounce! Whereas silver is at ~$8 an ounce. Wouldn't it make more sense to use silver because it's a better conductor and alot cheaper?

Anyway, gold does do the job well enough, but not the best.

Oh, I just have to say, the guys at my local Radio Shack is a freaking moron. I tried to explain to him that silver is a much better conductor then gold. And that the highest quality RCA cables should actually have silver connects. *note* he was holding a Montster RCA cable for like $30 in his hand. After I told him I was looking for RCA cables with silver connecters, he said, "Well we have these cheap quality ones if that's what you're looking for." I was like, "Dude, do you not fricking listen. Do you have your head stuck up you a$$?" He was like, "Excuse me?". I said, "Yeah, you are a freaking moron that gets caught up in companies marketing gimmicks. And further more, you probably don't have a pot to piss in because you waste all of your money on usless sh*t like Monster Cable." And then I walked away. He had this dumb founded look on his face

[T.O 240sx]

hey Rex...

well i just bougt a battery recently... and the alternator is oem! so about 10 years old, but the car has 80k. i was thinking it was the alternator too... the car is parked for the winter ( i live in Canada, so it's a "white out") but when i get it back on the road i iwll definitely change my alternator.any brand names you would suggest for a new alternator?... as for the "load" im not too sure... i dont think it could be that much though.

[T.O 240sx]

PQM... lol... you know your stuff... well i guess i was a victim of the gold connectors!... i always thought copper was better; it's used for all sorts of wiring, partly because its cheap but also it works!... i rarely see silver connectors, i always see gold.lol... thats a funny story about the guy at radio shack, you showed him whos the boss! well now i know the truth beyond these so called $30 rca cables that are "the best" cause they are gold plated and the $7 that are the "cheap ones" which are better.thanks for all the advice and help guys

[Silvia2b]

The diferences between cables are much greater thatn that. Silver IS a much better conductor, ask anybody at audioquest. or better yet go here http://www.audioquest.com/ click on the cable theory tab. But the marketing isn't everything when it comes to cables otherthings should also be considered, surface area of the connector thickness of the wire (not the insulation around the wires), shielded/unshielded etc...Streetwires makes some very decent cables at lower prices compared to monster or any othe big brand. And guess what the use platnium, nickel, or other finishes, not gold. However, one reason gold is an excellent use for battery and power connections is it's ability to resist corrosion, vs. other metal plating.
Modified by Silvia2b at 8:14 AM 1/11/2005

[Rex]

... as for the "load" im not too sure... i dont think it could be that much though.

Load would be determied by how much amperage the amp draws and how often you run the amp hard.

A 10 yr old alt, should be replaced. Miles aren't what puts a hurting on an alt as much as "cycles", dust, dirt and just overall age.

[T.O 240sx]

well i dont run the pump my system all the time... i dont think the amp is giving out too much power... i would say no more than 250w-300w rms.

i have another question for you guys... what size speaker wire would you recommended? im hearing 8 gauge is too big... and to use nothing bigger than 10. is that true?

[Rex]

Depending on the speakers/wattage/amp I'd say 12, 14 maybe 16, but 8 is too heavy and 10 might be overkill.

[T.O 240sx]

hey Rex... thanks bro, ill stick with 12 then, i dont want to overkill my speakers yet! i guessin you have a creazy system in your car huh... mind posting some pics?is planning on buying a capacitor to relieve some stress on the battery.... would 2 farads be too much?... or should i just buy a 1 farad capacitor?thanks!

[Rex]

Actually, I haven't had anything, system wise, since the late 80's early 90's. I have a few pieces (old school stuff) I'm rounding up for when I put together a project car, but the Q's sport factory Bose.

And by overkill I meant like dreag slicks on a Yugo, not as in it might "kill" your speakers. Though some say speaker wire that's too heavy creates resistance and decreases the output that reaches the speaker.

Hope everything works out for you, I'm just hang out in here to help.

[PoorManQ45]

I've got a truely crazy arse system in my car. Or rather I had one in there. I had to take it out while I'm "fixing" it.

Here's what used to be in there, and will probably going back in there:

[Rex]

...is planning on buying a capacitor to relieve some stress on the battery.... would 2 farads be too much?... or should i just buy a 1 farad capacitor?thanks!

I've never done anything with caps, so I can speak specifically to their use/effectiveness. I will say some of what I've read says they're pretty much for ego/bragging rights as most people never really drive their system hard enough to need it.

Hopefully, some of the guys that've used them will comment.

[T.O 240sx]

thanks for all the helpthat looks like one crazy system... with all that knowledge... you dont have a system in your car?!?!... caps arent that expensive, and their 'supposed' to relive stress on the battery, so i'll get one and let you know if it actually did anything

[PoorManQ45]

A capacitor is not neccesary. http://www.faradnet.com/deeley/chapt_02.htm

A capacitor stores energy for short periods of time, if there is a drop in Voltage, the capacitor will rapidly discharge to "fill in" the drop. Now, in a properly maintained electrical system, these drops should NOT occur.

If your electronics draw more current then your alternator is capable of, a voltage drop will occur as you draw the excess current directly from the battery. Note that this is really really bad .

Also, note on that link that I provided. Look at the surface area of the capacitor plates required to actually hold a TRUE 1 Farad charge. You will quickly realize that the size of capacitors labeled as 1 farad can not truely be 1 farad due to their physical size .

Anyway, a Capacitor is mainly used so you can say, "Yo dog, look at that big arse cap I got in thar yo!"

[Silvia2b]

Capacitors can be useful for any system. They may not be necessary for most applications. People who have a large amplifier with subwoofers connected will know that when you have subs bridged off the amplifier channels there is enough of a current demand from the amp to actually rapidly reduce the charging system voltage by as much as 1-3.5 volts, a cap can help minimize this stress on the battery. Caps also act as a filter for the power lines, which means less noise and more signal. Two different basic designs of amplifiers are regulated, and unregulated, with respect to the power supply side of the amps. Unregulated amps can really benefit from the addition of the cap. The regulated type doesn't really benefit from the use of cap since the output will be the same regardless of voltage. So the kind of amplifier you have may determine the usefulness of a cap to your system.
Modified by Silvia2b at 9:51 PM 1/17/2005

[Rex]

Good insight, regulated amps are more common for the daily listener, correct?

Can you give a rough list of brands or types - regulated and unregulated?

[sparkplugs.com]

any brand names you would suggest for a new alternator?...

Denso Alternators are available on Sparkplugs.com

[Silvia2b]

For sure Rex, I'll put together a list of different amps at work tomorrow. Some may be regulated while others not even from the same manufacturer. It al has to do with the intent of the design of the amp, power output ratings, or actual real useable power.

[PoorManQ45]

People who have a large amplifier with subwoofers connected will know that when you have subs bridged off the amplifier channels there is enough of a current demand from the amp to actually rapidly reduce the charging system voltage by as much as 1-3.5 volts, a cap can help minimize this stress on the battery.

No, no, no . Bridging more then one sub onto a single channel of an amplifier has NOTHING to do with the amount of current that it will draw!

Also, have you ever turned your headlights on and noticed a momentary dimming of the interior dome light(S)? Did you notice that within a second the light output returned to the same level as before? Well, this is the same principle. So what is the initial current draw causes a voltage drop. It's only during the startup! After the amp is on and the car is running, there should be no more voltage drops. Except turning on large current devices such as the headlights, but even that is momentary.

Is there anything to worry about because the voltage initially drops? NO. NO harm will be done to the amplifier! It will produce slightly less power. And I doubt that you would ever notice a change in volume because the voltage would need to be cut in HALF to cause the amplifier output to be cut in half, which would ONLY cause a 3Db decrease in Volume! I think that I will keep my $100 and "suffer" through those initial startups .

Also, like I said before, those Capcitors that are claimed to be rated to 1 farad are not Truely capable of storing 1 farad! This is due to the physical restraints of the capacitors enclosure. The plates and/or bars in the cap can simply not cover enough surface area to reach the 1 farad level!

[T.O 240sx]

hey Rex and PoorManQ45... i have another quick question for you guys... its a grounding question... i now know the basics; the shorter the ground wire the better, use the same gauge wiring as power wire... my question is, when they say to ground to any "unpainted" part of the car, does that include the oem color? could i use a part of the car with the original paint color to ground my amp? or should i find somewhere else?if either of you guys know a place (in the trunk) in the S14's to ground... please let me know.thanks!

[Rex]

The goal is bare metal, the paint acts as "insulation" and decreases the effectiveness of the ground.

[T.O 240sx]

ahh, i see i see... thanks for clearing that up.where in the truck would i find bare metal? i think i found some behind the carpeting in the truck. i cant really tell if its metal though... it looks like it. i guess i could take a magnet to it and see if it sticks.

[Rex]

Generally, you have to wire brush away some paint of "sealer" to get to real bare metal. I used to put silicon on both the top (& bottom) to help decrease chances of rust.

[PoorManQ45]

Um... by unpainted we mean bare metal.

When making a ground point, you want to drill a hole for a properly sized screw/bolt(Or you could weld on your ground, but that's kind of pointless). After this, take a wire wheel with a drill and scratch away the paint and/or primer that is on there. The surface should be fairly shiny when you're at bare metal.

I don't know about the s14 specifically, but usually a good ground can be found at the wheel well/fender.

[T.O 240sx]

hey guysthanks for the grounding tips... i know its critical to have a solid ground connection or the system will be underutilized.

im sure ill find a few places, or make new ones!

[PoorManQ45]

you're welcome. Feel free to ask any other questions that you may have