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Cold_Zero
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HashiriyaS14 wrote:
Yay, time for some Constitutional Law!

I quoted Greg, but this is for the benefit of all, on both sides, as well as myself, as I had to do a little research to fill in some gaps in my own knowledge.

First and foremost, the words "Separation of Church and State" do NOT appear anywhere in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or really any other founding document save a famous letter written by Thomas Jefferson which is quite obviously NOT law.

All constitutional law rulings on "C&S" stem from either the "establishment clause" or the "free exercise" clause, which can at times seem to contradict one another, hence all the controversy.

The "establishment clause" of the First Ammendment reads as follows:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

This being the first phrase in the First Ammendment.

In regards to legal precedent, this clause HAS been shown to limit things like prayer in schools, in that (again, in terms of legal precedent), the establishment clause effectively prohibits the Government from enacting any law or regulation upon the people that has it's grounding solely in religion without any other secular justification.

i.e., you can't have prayer in public schools funded by government money because said prayer would constitute an "establishment of religion" via a "law". It quite plainly is NOT something that has any further secular justification.

The "free exercise clause", which is the next phrase in the First Ammendment, reads as follows:

'or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (in regards to religion)

This means that the government cannot legally STOP anyone from exercising their religion so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of anyone else. This means that if YOU want to pray in school, they can't stop you, but they can't force the whole class to do it either (in grossly simplified terms).
deja vuhttp://forums.nicoclub.com/zer...75765

One minor correction. The term "A Wall of Separation" was used in Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptist Associate because of their fear that the Government would start regulate/legislate religious expression. Thus it really was coined/applied to the Free Exercise Clause. But you are right, the term is not found in any founding documents and really was coined 'Separation of Church and State' much later and made famous by Justice Hugo Black.


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smockers83
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I might need to correct myself a little bit. Of the 17 major religions, only 4 approve of gay marriage, with one or two religions with mixed opinions (factions that have split off from the national church's view). Hard to believe that Dems are only of 4 religions. Christianity, as a whole, rejects gay marriage. So what does that say about Dems? 10, 20, 30 years ago none of them would have agreed to gay marriage.

I'd also like to point to a poll taken in 2007 that 69% said its important for the president to have strong religious beliefs. And if religion isn't supposed to be a big deal in our government, how come we don't have more Catholic presidents? Because the Pope will take over our country? Please. The Pope hasn't taken over Italy.

And the separation of church and state is intended to keep the federal government from endorsing one religion like England did with forcing people to be of the Church of England. That's the sole reason why we're here in America.

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audtatious
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Cold_Zero wrote:One minor correction. The term "A Wall of Separation" was used in Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptist Associate because of their fear that the Government would start regulate/legislate religious expression. Thus it really was coined/applied to the Free Exercise Clause. But you are right, the term is not found in any founding documents and really was coined 'Separation of Church and State' much later and made famous by Justice Hugo Black.
Correct. The intent of Jeffersons letter was to remove the fears of a state-sanctioned/selected religion as one had been imposed on these same people in England via the Church of England. In todays time, you constantly hear people inappropriately citing that "Seperation of Church and State" has some form of a deeper meaning than simply keeping the newly formed US Gov't from selecting a state-sponsored religion (thus freedom of religion) like England did.

EDIT: lolz...beat to the punch by Eric....

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smockers83 wrote:Don't leave. Just be prepared to back up what you say with well-thought arguments.

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smockers83
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Also, on a side note on why you shouldn't leave. You've been around this planet for awhile, I feel it'll be hard to change your views, and nor is that our intention. Its actually good to see some of the left over here, provides perspective. Just add substance and logic to your perspective. Personally, I like to use data and statistics to base my arguments, as well as what I think is logical and makes sense. I try to articulate that and get my point across as well as I can without droning on...doesn't always work, but I'll deal, and sometimes that means writing a short essay. We may have tried to shoot you down, but shoot right back at us, its debate. If you can debunk something I say, by all means, please do. Again, provide us with some perspective and more excitement!

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^ Man With Funny Name Speak Big Truth.

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OriginalWheelman
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Speak for yourself. I'm always trying to change people's views.

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smockers83
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By changing his views I meant shifting him from left to right across the spectrum. Debate can be used to form better opinions and ideas, which does change people's views. But what lies under that won't change over night, but gradually over time.

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You are so right,

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim, Attila all fine upstanding Christians. Never hurt anyone for their beliefs. Oh just in case your forgot, KKK, started by Southren Democrats. Ouch.... Seperation of church and state implies, since it is not in the constitution, that the US gov't cannot establish a relgion, like the church of England or Germany. It does not imply that we cannot freely worship the God of our choice when we want how we want and where we want. Quit drinking the koolaide my man.

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smockers83
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Who are you talking to?

Stalin's beliefs were contradictory--raised Christian, turned Atheist, then reopened churches and at times regretted not becoming a priest. Not sure if he got away from atheism or not though. Mao, if you're talking about Mao Tse Tung, wasn't Christian. Nor is Kim Jong-il, if that's who you're referring to as Kim. Attila I don't know if he was or not, couldn't find info quickly, the only religious reference I could find on him was with Norse mythology. However, Christians taking people out is nothing new in history either.

There is/was no Church of Germany.

Telcoman did bring up a very good point though, religion seems to be the dominant cause of death and wars. However:
telcoman wrote:His so called surge came too late. He failed to listen to those that urged greater troop strength.
I still get a kick out of this. Can't please them by keeping them there, can't please them that we didn't do it sooner, all the while the left called for our immediate withdrawal. This is where I have problems with your logic and reasoning. Democrats like big bureaucracies so that they can always blame someone else, that's my theory.

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Cold_Zero
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smockers83 wrote:Who are you talking to?
I think he was talking to Telcoman and making a facetious point.

Quote »There is/was no Church of Germany.[/quote]The EKD is as close as it comes in Germany. Sure Germany does not have State Churches as in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland, but Frogdad is not totally wrong. The reason why Germany doesnt have a State Church has more to do with how Evangelicalism (Lutheranism) spread and the current political state of Germany compared to Sweden and Denmark at the time. There were many attempts to form a unified State Church in Germany throughout the years, of which all efforts fell through.

Even the Nazis tried to form their own Lutheran State Church, (which was more of a joke to the whole of Lutheranism in the world.)bud

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Frogdad11262 wrote:You are so right,

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim, Attila all fine upstanding Christians. Never hurt anyone for their beliefs. Oh just in case your forgot, KKK, started by Southren Democrats. Ouch.... Seperation of church and state implies, since it is not in the constitution, that the US gov't cannot establish a relgion, like the church of England or Germany.
This post makes me LOL.

Mao Zedong, Kim Jong Il, and Attila the Hun were/are most DEFINITELY not of the Christian Faith. Did someone lie to you in Jesus Camp?


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Cold_Zero
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I thought he was being facetious in making that comment?

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HashiriyaS14
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Cold_Zero wrote:I thought he was being facetious in making that comment?
Honestly, that post was so confusing that I wasn't really sure what point he was trying to make, but I decided to tear into him regardless just because it was too funny not to.

It almost seemed like he was on "both" sides of the argument... I dunno.

I pretty much used it as an excuse to make a crack about "Jesus Camp".


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Cold_Zero
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Carry on then, Hash *salute*

Btw, did you ever seen the movie "Jesus Camp?"


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HashiriyaS14
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Cold_Zero wrote:Btw, did you ever seen the movie "Jesus Camp?"
No, but I've been meaning to.

I've heard that it has a lot of "creative editing" however, which I will be wary of while I watch.

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telcoman
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Cold_Zero wrote:Carry on then, Hash *salute*

Btw, did you ever seen the movie "Jesus Camp?"
No thanks! I think I'll skip it. I'm waiting for the next movie from Michael Moore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

Just reading about the movie kind of reminds me of whats his name that urged his followers to drink the kool aid.

Telcoman

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HashiriyaS14 wrote:
No, but I've been meaning to.

I've heard that it has a lot of "creative editing" however, which I will be wary of while I watch.
I strongly suggest it and then remind you that our President believes in the same thign in the same way.

I have heard similar claims, but I honestly don't think having that the editing made stuff more damning than it already was...I mean they had to film the stuff in the first place, editting or not.

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telcoman wrote:
No thanks! I think I'll skip it. I'm waiting for the next movie from Michael Moore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

Just reading about the movie kind of reminds me of whats his name that urged his followers to drink the kool aid.

Telcoman
How ironic.

Waiting for a Michael Moore movie, and mentioning Jim Jones... They're not too different, that's for sure.

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I was being facetious. Sorry for being so confusing. Here's my point, leaders have been killing people throughout the history of the world. The leaders I listed killed millions in the name of???? it wasn't God. Don't blame religon for all wars.

Don't use wars as an excuse to prevent freedom of religon. It's not a viable excuse. Most Christians like the US as is, you do as you want let us do as we want. We don't like a nanny state that tells us a Bible is offensive but Jesus on a cross made out of dung is art. It makes no sense.

That was tearing into me, get a pair dude my grandma was tougher.


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Cold_Zero
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telcoman wrote:
No thanks! I think I'll skip it. I'm waiting for the next movie from Michael Moore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

Just reading about the movie kind of reminds me of whats his name that urged his followers to drink the kool aid.

Telcoman
Jesus Camp is by no means 'conservative propaganda.' It by no means portray Evangelical Christians in a good light. But I can understand your aversion to the movie. Most people with ADD cant get past the word Jesus in the title and get distracted.


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