Great job Mr President

[telcoman]

In case some missed this?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...shtml

Its getting tougher being on the right. Some now don't know which way to turn?

Telcoman

[OriginalWheelman]

...

...so that people like telco can blame the Prez for everything but the weather...

I'm sure Bush is the one over there killing those Christians. Christians are persecuted in China too... is that Bush's fault?

[Cold_Zero]

Wow,A little late go the dance on this one. WE have been tracking violence against Christian churches (no one denomination) in Northern Korea, Sudan, Eritrea, East Timor, India and yes Iraq for some time now. You would think that predominately Islamic countries in the Middle East like Iran, Syria and Egypt would not allow Christians to practice their religion. It's actually the contrary. In Iran the constitution recognizes 4 major religions, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism. While there are laws that discourage evangelism of Muslims to other religions and severe punishments for Muslims converting to a religion other than Islam, most Christians are allow to practice their religion in peace.

While I am skeptical of an Anglican Bishop being sent from England to Baghdad and what he has to say about the situation on the ground, there was an Eastern Rite archbishop months ago that was kidnapped in Iraq. It has been no secret that Iraq's small Christian communities have been targets throughout the civil war in Iraq. What authority does Canterbury have in this jurisdiction? Might as well send the Patriarch of Moscow or Bill Graham to have a more excentric spokesperson in the region. What I don't understand is why you and the rest of this country are not concerned about the Turkish and now Iranian invasion of Northern Iraq? These countries are claiming they are attacking PKK (Kurdish) strong holds. But make no mistake; it has always been Turkey's and Iran's intention to eradicate the Kurds. Now that there is no Saddam Hussein to stop them (trust me he hated the Kurds as much as Iran and Turkey but he would not allow these countries to invade his own), they may actually succeed since the United States wont stop the airstrikes coming from Turkey and Iran.

[smockers83]

Persecution of Christians has been happening since the Christian faith was created. Nothing new. Christians are persecuted in this country, too, and on the rise.
Modified by smockers83 at 3:10 PM 6/30/2008

[Cold_Zero]

While that is a fact, it shouldn't trivialize the persecution. bud

[AZhitman]

Remember, many people have been living under a rock.

Who's sharper - The administration, or those who blame centuries-old conflicts on that administration?

Here's the deal - If we say we're gonna go "do something" about it, the administration is decried as "warmongering".

If we leave it be, the same people cry "foul".

So, the Muslims can't persecute the Christians, but they can kill other Muslims?

And what of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire? They were eradicating and systematically slaughtering Armenian Christians before we were all born...

God, I despise the Left.

[Cold_Zero]

And what of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire? They were eradicating and systematically slaughtering Armenian Christians before we were all born...

And I might add that the Secular Government of Turkey to this day still denies the holocaust and worse, blames it on Armenian youth and militants. And if you bring up the topic you can be thrown in jail for insulting Turkey's National pride. As far as I am concerned they have no pride.

[telcoman]

And what of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire? They were eradicating and systematically slaughtering Armenian Christians before we were all born...

God, I despise the Left.

God, I despise the right.

My point is that religion has been responsible for more deaths and more wars than anyone can count. This is why I believe religion has no business in our government.

Complete separation of church and state!

Telcoman

[Cold_Zero]

Spoken like a true Maoist/Marxist.

[OriginalWheelman]

Complete separation of church and state!

So no one who is of an established religion can run for office, as they would be part of the government and part of a religion, therefore they would not be separate unless this happens. Separation of church and state is BS. Its a spin on the first amendment and has no real legal power.

[HashiriyaS14]

The point of the article is that the invasion and the ensuing instability has drastically effected the situation for Christians in Iraq, negatively.

While it's a little silly to point the finger at President Bush because some crazy Islamic Fundementalist half a world away wants to kill Christians, this IS an unintended consequence of a poorly thought out war.

[Cold_Zero]

The point of the article is that the invasion and the ensuing instability has drastically effected the situation for Christians in Iraq, negatively.

Again, coming from an Anglican bishop that has no jurisdictional authority in the region.

[OriginalWheelman]

Again, coming from an Anglican bishop that has no jurisdictional authority in the region.

by his own reckoning, driven a little bit mad.

[AZhitman]

My point is that religion has been responsible for more deaths and more wars than anyone can count. This is why I believe religion has no business in our government.

Complete separation of church and state!

Telcoman

How is your irrelevant rant related to the article you posted?

telco, I'm hoping you can come up with some well-thought out discussion of why you take issue with the article you posted, and what it has to do with the current administration.

At present, you're not representing your "side" very intelligently.

[telcoman]

So no one who is of an established religion can run for office, as they would be part of the government and part of a religion, therefore they would not be separate unless this happens. Separation of church and state is BS. Its a spin on the first amendment and has no real legal power.

That is not what is meant by separation of church and state.

Some religions oppose abortion, contraception, same sex marriage, etc.

No religion should be forcing their beliefs on others. If a majority of residents of San Francisco or California for example want to aurthorize same sex marriage or ok abortion clinics why should it be a problem for others who belong to a religion that opposes that lifestyle? No need for additional constitutional amendments. Just don't do it and don't worry what others are doing. It doesn't affect you. The so called religious in the name of God are shooting and killing doctors that don't agree with their religion.Running for office should not be a problem as long as one doesn't attempt to force their religious beliefs on others.

It is interesting to note that many on the right (Larry Craig, Jerry Falwell and many others) that speak out against alternative lifestyles end up getting caught with males in rest rooms, prostitutes, or sex with minor children. The catholic church has already paid out over a 1/2 billon dollars in settlements for child molestation from priests and its not the only religion with some sick members and so called leaders.George Carlin had it right. All religions are terrible at managing money. They just keep asking for more. Best we keep all religions out of our government.

Telcoman

[HashiriyaS14]

Again, coming from an Anglican bishop that has no jurisdictional authority in the region.

Yes, definitely noted.

I'd like to see more coverage of this from different people.

And Hitman nailed it: Telco, you're KILLING me on here, lol!

I do a respectable job of always either being right via unassailable logic or being too slippery to nail down in debate, but you're just murdering any progress I make!

[AZhitman]

I'll RESTATE myself:

How is your irrelevant rant related to the article you posted?

telco, I'm hoping you can come up with some well-thought out discussion of why you take issue with the article you posted, and what it has to do with the current administration.

At present, you're not representing your "side" very intelligently.

Quit babbling about what you "believe". No one cares.

You brought something up, now DEFEND your point (whatever you thought you were getting at in your original post) and answer the question.

[AZhitman]

Also, those who advocate a wholesale seperation of C & S conveniently forget where Natural Law and the Law of the Land CAME FROM.

Yep. It's all based off beliefs. Right and wrong. Good and evil. Get over it.

Better re-read the Declaration of Independence, brotha.

[Cold_Zero]

That is not what is meant by separation of church and state.

Some religions oppose abortion, contraception, same sex marriage, etc.

No religion should be forcing their beliefs on others. If a majority of residents of San Francisco or California for example want to aurthorize same sex marriage or ok abortion clinics why should it be a problem for others who belong to a religion that opposes that lifestyle? No need for additional constitutional amendments. Just don't do it and don't worry what others are doing. It doesn't affect you. The so called religious in the name of God are shooting and killing doctors that don't agree with their religion.Running for office should not be a problem as long as one doesn't attempt to force their religious beliefs on others.

It is interesting to note that many on the right (Larry Craig, Jerry Falwell and many others) that speak out against alternative lifestyles end up getting caught with males in rest rooms, prostitutes, or sex with minor children. The catholic church has already paid out over a 1/2 billon dollars in settlements for child molestation from priests and its not the only religion with some sick members and so called leaders.George Carlin had it right. All religions are terrible at managing money. They just keep asking for more. Best we keep all religions out of our government.

Telcoman

I am printing out this post and hanging it on the Refrigerator at home to serve as a lesson to my daughter to:1. Stay in School2. Study Hard3. Don't end up like Telcoman

What part of this rant actually makes sense and is a consistent line of thought? You are all over the place on this one.

[WDRacing]

Two quick things...

I thought religion based topics were off limits?

Imagine...Different religions warring with each other...when did this start? Oh yeah...when God lit the sun.

Every religion that has EVER been recognized has fallen under some kind of assault. We're human, therefore we will destroy anything we disagree with. Has nothing to do with religion, that's just an excuse.

WD

[AZhitman]

Don't get telco distracted. He may have a thought.

[WDRacing]

That was supposed to be funny right?

[OriginalWheelman]

No religion should be forcing their beliefs on others

I don't think an inanimate concept can do that. It's the people who belong to the religion who do this. This takes us back to...

So no one who is of an established religion can run for office, as they would be part of the government and part of a religion, therefore they would not be separate unless this happens.

Running for office should not be a problem as long as one doesn't attempt to force their religious beliefs on others.

Are you familiar with Christianity? One of it's basic principles is to go out and convince the world to join your religion. So, any real christian will be doing just that, and there by not be eligible for office under this logic.

It is interesting to note that many on the right (Larry Craig, Jerry Falwell and many others) that speak out against alternative lifestyles end up getting caught with males in rest rooms, prostitutes, or sex with minor children.

1. So do people on the left. It's a human problem, not a right wing one.

2. A lot of times they believe what they are doing is wrong. If you know a little about psych then you know that a lot of this is compulsion driven, not belief / thought driven.

The catholic church has already paid out over a 1/2 billon dollars in settlements for child molestation from priests and its not the only religion with some sick members and so called leaders.

Priests are an interesting sort to begin with. The kind of person who would give up a basic function of life to please god has to be a bit off in the first place. The thing is, the instinctual need for physical affection is there, so they prey on the weak to get it. Priests have sex with girls too, but that doesn't sell as many papers so that doesn't get reported on.

[telcoman]

Don't get telco distracted. He may have a thought.

Yes I do have a thought. I think I'm going to try and avoid the politics forum.

My original point was that our president led us into war on false pretenses and lies in an attempt to grab Iraqi oil for our misguided energy policy and the failure of this administration to have a realistic energy policy to wean our dependance on oil. In the process he created a civil war with the slaughter of different religious factions. His so called surge came too late. He failed to listen to those that urged greater troop strength. Any religious based slaughter should be prevented. Toppling a government and not prepared for results is not something the United States should be involved in. We were not attacked from Iraq.

And before I leave the politics forum I found the quote from George Carlin.

"Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these 10 things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you.

He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing and all-wise; somehow just can't handle money!"

Telcoman

[HashiriyaS14]

Also, those who advocate a wholesale seperation of C & S conveniently forget where Natural Law and the Law of the Land CAME FROM.

Yep. It's all based off beliefs. Right and wrong. Good and evil. Get over it.

Yay, time for some Constitutional Law!

I quoted Greg, but this is for the benefit of all, on both sides, as well as myself, as I had to do a little research to fill in some gaps in my own knowledge.

First and foremost, the words "Separation of Church and State" do NOT appear anywhere in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or really any other founding document save a famous letter written by Thomas Jefferson which is quite obviously NOT law.

All constitutional law rulings on "C&S" stem from either the "establishment clause" or the "free exercise" clause, which can at times seem to contradict one another, hence all the controversy.

The "establishment clause" of the First Ammendment reads as follows:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

This being the first phrase in the First Ammendment.

In regards to legal precedent, this clause HAS been shown to limit things like prayer in schools, in that (again, in terms of legal precedent), the establishment clause effectively prohibits the Government from enacting any law or regulation upon the people that has it's grounding solely in religion without any other secular justification.

i.e., you can't have prayer in public schools funded by government money because said prayer would constitute an "establishment of religion" via a "law". It quite plainly is NOT something that has any further secular justification.

The "free exercise clause", which is the next phrase in the First Ammendment, reads as follows:

'or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (in regards to religion)

This means that the government cannot legally STOP anyone from exercising their religion so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of anyone else. This means that if YOU want to pray in school, they can't stop you, but they can't force the whole class to do it either (in grossly simplified terms).

Anyway, on issues like abortion, it gets muddier, for several reasons:

1.) Abortion is an issue that may not be entirely religious, as it DOES technically involve the taking of a life and has other objective medical consequences (i.e. life of the mother, et cetera). The question as to when a fetus becomes a "life" was addressed in Roe v. Wade, but it's safe to say that the discussion has still continued.

2.) Abortion is an issue wherein one person is making a decision that can possibly affect several other individuals, which makes it very messy.

It doesn't help clarity on the C&S subject that Roe v. Wade wasn't really a decision made on the grounds that abortion is a religious issue. Rather, it was made largely on the grounds that the unborn did not qualify as a "person" via the wording of the Fourteenth Ammendment.

Ultimately, how we are allowed to live our lives in this nation DOES come down to letter-of-the-law readings of the Constitution and other documents. I've said it before, but they can't be followed piecemeal. You either subscribe to all of it or you move to Canada.

How the balls did this thread end up on this subject, anyway?

[96Qowner]

Heheh, you sure don't have to leave.

We'd just like to hear more substance and less anti-morality, anti-religious tirades. You DO have the freedom to be as anti-religious as you choose, in THIS country. That's that marvelous separation of church and State people talk about. Good, yes?

[96Qowner]

How the balls did this thread end up on this subject, anyway?

Bush = badReligion = badWar in Iraq = bad

Ergo, they're all related somehow, I guess.

We're missing Cheney Halburton, though, also = bad.

So, it must be a plot by Halburton to get Bush elected, so we could invade Iraq and force religion on all American citizens. That's it, that's the ticket.

[WDRacing]

Yes I do have a thought. I think I'm going to try and avoid the politics forum.

Smartest thing you've said so far

The war in Iraq is awful...there is no one saying otherwise. It was mishandled from the word go. Again, no one arguing.

However, leave the Iraq war and the failure of ALL men that use religion as a basis for war separated because one has nothing to do with the other. Or else you really have to go all the way back to the Crusades. Hell, 2500 BC even...basically since there was sunlight.

Human kind is an example of total failure when it comes to being able to live together. There hasn't been a moments peace between people EVER...period. No blaming that on anyone...humanity simply sucks as a whole. From the dawn of time one man has been trying to control the others around him in some fashion or another. Some more ruthless then others...but there has always been slavery and war and people forcing their will onto others.

Sure is a good thing Marijuana is illegal...God forbid we chill the hell out.

WD

[smockers83]

To play devil's advocate telcoman, the left side of the political spectrum, are involved in religions that think its okay to have abortions and aren't vehemently against gay marriage. So the left trying to tell us that this is all okay is forcing your religious beliefs upon those that don't believe so. Religious beliefs form the foundation of our moral thinking. To say that an elected official can vote not based on his own thinking, and therefore not on his religion, is absurd. It just doesn't happen. Plus, those elected represent the majority of the people in his/her district, which should mean the majority of that district thinks like the official, and therefore probably of the same or similar religion. So in order to represent those views, he/she votes accordingly.

Its impossible to remove religious views from any government. The foundation of the United States is on Christian values and English common law, also based on Christian values. That's not to say the Roman Catholic church itself, but Christianity as a whole.

As for the religious civil war going on in Iraq, if that's what we want to call it, its not our fault directly. Its not our choice for them to kill each other, that's all on them. The original plan was to have Saddam's power removed, the government remain intact, and everything works out. Obviously that didn't happen and that's how we're in our current situation and with improvements from the surge in troops now. How can you honestly say, as a left winger, that the surge should have been done long ago when you guys were calling to kill war budgets, pulling out the troops immediately, blah blah blah? You guys cannot make up your mind on how to run this war. That's why the GOP is still in the White House. You guys cannot get your act together and come up with a plan. You have had 2 years in Congress to do so, yet nothing's changed except for higher troop levels.

Don't leave. Just be prepared to back up what you say with well-thought arguments.

[OriginalWheelman]

Well put.

It took over 2 billion years for two cells to get along well enough to form a multi-cellular organism, it's probably going to take longer to get two humans to agree on everything.