GM AND FORD BAIL OUTS

[jbracy7]

IF we have to bail out these multi-billion dollars companys we should all get a free GM&FORD car/ crate motor\big brakes/vette parts of our choosing. turbos/superchargers .....all out sorced jobs must go back to americans... we dont get watered down versions of holden cars... and sense none of this will happen ... let the millionairs crash and burn. then nissan and other import brands can slowy buy of the rest..

im going to get flamed for this.

[OriginalWheelman]

I'll take the GT40 Crate motor please.

[S13_love]

GM and Ford executives, etc. need to pull their head out of their a$$ and need to start doing better!

GM stock last time i checked was at $3 per share (i believe it was at $1.40 on Nov 20)! Ford is around the same too.

[Cold_Zero]

With the way they are handing things out, you might as well get in line and ask Congress for a handout.bud

[480sx]

Ill take an LS7.

Oh what a capitalist government we have.

[smockers83]

So does that mean if I buy government bonds they should hand over a state to me?

Ford and Chrysler CEOs can't really be blamed for their companies' positions, they've been there for about a year. There really is nothing to base their performance on except for the fact that Ford is now able to weather out the storm, or at least should be able to if things don't get worse. Gettlefinger ranked Ford best, GM worst. Wagoner and GM on the other hand, you can say all you want about them.

[jbracy7]

i can agree with you on that if's a company that needs it has to be the first american car company if ford can go back to making small cheap cars it will be agreat come back sell gm to nissan{if they can float the bill}

[smockers83]

Ford is in the process of retooling to bring I think six European models Stateside. Its a little late to do that, but even so, I think the European models will be a hit here as they're more stylish IMO.

[heliochrome85]

you have no idea how hot and bothered the Euro Ford Lineup gets me.

Seriously.

why buy a versa/aygo/hyundai when you can get a ford fiesta...

[marlin29311]

I think the biggest problem is that for so long, all of these companies have lived the rich life with no problems, and now they are being forced to act lean and they have no idea what to do. It's like if you grew up rich, always ate filet mignon and such, and now are being told you're only allowed to have ground beef and noodles - they don't know what to do. It's near impossible to change these compaines (all of them for that matter) as the fat cats at the top can't change their own lifestyles.

[jbracy7]

[hsckris]

I think we should let them fail.

The best thing that could happen to them would be to fail. Someone or some group would buy GM & Ford, in whole or part. THe labor costs would go down b/c the new purchasers would not buy unless they could void the old contracts. And boom -- now GM & Ford could make vehicles with approximately the same overhead as other makes. They have competitive vehicles for the most part, they just can't compete when they are paying more in labor to produce (and even in pensions/benefits to retired laborers) and selling with deep discounts. Something has to give -- failure would allow the labor prices to get back to where they should be.

[480sx]

Im for letting them bail themselves out, or fail. Gives rise to new automanufacturers who arnt so cumbersome and.. stupid. Also would promote american made products. Not just american designed, and outsourced products.

AZ opened my eyes, im not a big fan of the big three anymore. Outsourcing and to many years of crappy products have left me cold to American cars. American trucks? Yea sign me up, but its kinda funny because America has blocked foreign automanufacturers from making a bigger truck than a half ton(IIRC, its close to that).

CHEVY 2500 HD 89 PLOW TRUCK with 450000 miles on it on the second engine and original transmission FTMFW! God i love that thing. If it wasnt so damned rusted out i would keep it but its gotta be replaced soon. No cure for cancer that bad.

[marlin29311]

Let them file chapter 11, kill the UAW, and the world will be at peace.

[Cold_Zero]

You could get rid of the UAW all together and that STILL would not make GM, Ford or Chrysler solvent. It wasn't the UAW that under funed the Delphi Pension fund to the tune of 5 Billion dollars. It was GM and GM faced loosing manufacturing plants all over the world due to the ERISA laws.

It wasn't the UAW that third quarter 2006 that lost over a billion dollars on their books. No not a billion dollar loss in profits, they just couldn't find a billion dollars on their books that should have been there.

I remember listening to Sean Hannity's show (who is a big GM supporter) when they had one of the Executives from GM on when Congress was debating on the new CAFE and fuel efficiency standards. The guy got way off track on the discussion and blamed GM's current lack of profitability on.... The Japanese slapping tariffs on imported American cars to Japan. Uhh GM could have the exclusive rights to sell cars in Japan and that still wouldn't solve GM's problems.

Solving this problem isn't as easy as just getting rid of the UAW. Besides, if one of the Big 3 goes under or is bought buy a Private Equity Firm the buyers still have to honor the union shops. Case in point Chrysler and Ceberus. The best thing that the Big 3 can do is ask that the Federal Government step in and re-negotiate union contracts with the UAW. But with the UAW coming to the table to concede certain things to help the auto makers that isn't going to happen.bud

[Cold_Zero]

Now, something that Carl Levin said that did kind of make sense. He said that you would be a fool to think that the Germans, Japanese and Koreans would let their auto manufacturers fail. The governments of those countries pour money and support into their auto manufacturing industry. I guess we have to ask if we want to do the same thing.bud

[hsckris]

Besides, if one of the Big 3 goes under or is bought buy a Private Equity Firm the buyers still have to honor the union shops. Case in point Chrysler and Ceberus.

This is not necessarily true. There are too many variables to make this blanket statement. It is possible to purchase all or part of a company and not take on all of the contracts. Its also possible for GM and/or Ford to breach those contracts. The penalty for breach would likely be less, long term, than continuing at the UAW's ridiculous salaries. I saw a chart regarding the average cost of labor per brand. Gm & Ford were significantly higher than the Japanese makes. I don't remember about the other makes or where I saw it and hence can't find it again -- d'oh.

I don't think UAW is necessarily the solution to all of Gm's problems, nor did I say so (at least I don't think I did). But fixing UAW and new ownership should solve their problems. IMO the best summation of GM's problem is mismanagement & losing contracts. A private buyout could fix both.

[OriginalWheelman]

LET THEM GO BANKRUPT. GM won't die, Tata or FHI will by them, maybe even Toyota. These corps won't ever go away, they'll just change hands like Chrysler. I read something today that really irritated me.

The Bush administration has offered to accelerate the payment of some $25bn in green investment credits already allocated to the car industry, but this has been opposed by Democrats in the House of Representatives

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7765586.stm

WHO THE **** IS OPPOSING THIS? If we already have to give them 25 bil, why not give it to them now when they need it, instead of loans for 34 bil.

[Cold_Zero]

Sen. Tester brought up a good point about the scrutiny that has been placed on the Big 3 bailout, while the Financial Bailout has gotten far less scrutiny with banks sitting on their bailout and liquidity money.

Hsckris-I wasn't singling you out per se. I was speaking more to the Anti Union and Anti UAW sentiment in this thread. They may be part of the problem, but they are not the major part of the overall problem. The business models of the Big 3 have been a major component of the problem.

[smockers83]

LET THEM GO BANKRUPT. GM won't die, Tata or FHI will by them, maybe even Toyota. These corps won't ever go away, they'll just change hands like Chrysler.

Under normal circumstances, that may possibly be true, however companies like GM are so large and have so much debt, who can buy them? Also something to think about is, who has the credit lines to be able to buy these companies? Credit is stretched thin around the globe. Unfortunately we aren't under normal circumstances. Under normal circumstances, I may be less likely to say give them the loan, however given the economic situation today, I have to say give them the loan. If they fail under the current economic conditions, we're seriously headed for depression and a major economic collapse. A nation like ours cannot rely on a services-based economy, there has to be manufacturing.

WHO THE **** IS OPPOSING THIS? If we already have to give them 25 bil, why not give it to them now when they need it, instead of loans for 34 bil.

No one really. The numbers being used to make their cases have the $25 billion figured in already. They're talking about the $25 billion plus the bridge loans, at least that's what I've gotten out of the hearings.

Sen. Tester brought up a good point about the scrutiny that has been placed on the Big 3 bailout, while the Financial Bailout has gotten far less scrutiny with banks sitting on their bailout and liquidity money.

Hsckris-I wasn't singling you out per se. I was speaking more to the Anti Union and Anti UAW sentiment in this thread. They may be part of the problem, but they are not the major part of the overall problem. The business models of the Big 3 have been a major component of the problem.

Someone else also made a point today in the hearings that the 3 CEOs have made their case much better than the CEOs of the financial institutions. The UAW has to go for real. Well maybe not go as in disappear but they have to let the free market determine their workers wages. They can have their benefits and what not, which need to be transferred immediately to the UAW and not in 2010, but their wages need to be adjusted.

To me, the UAW is at the core of the problem. The 3 auto companies are spending so much money on their labor force relative to other companies in that it diverts money away from investment in technologies, quality, and better cars. We can ask the Big 3 to develop new models and new technologies, but where does that money come from when labor is being forcefully overpaid? The biggest expense and the biggest concern of a company should be its labor force, the rest follows. The biggest problem with their business models is that the UAW has such a strangle hold on the industry and you can see it on Capitol Hill where the CEOs won't say bad things about the union. If I were CEO of one of those companies, I would be like, "Hey, get the UAW off my back so I can survive and build a better business." A lot of what the UAW has in place in its contracts is not seen anywhere else in any other industry. Its disgusting.

end UAW rant.

[jbracy7]

the unions are a god givin right in the us and to say the should be givin any thing less than what they fought for is well a lil off balance grated they there all full of them selfs but power is tempory. but somthing has to be done to help does any one think of a partial buy out will do, say 49% to other car companys. or just fire the top15 billion hores

[hsckris]

the unions are a god givin right in the us

Wrong. Show me the authority for a union?*edit* also -- when did America become rule by divine right?

and to say the should be givin any thing less than what they fought for is well a lil off balance grated they there all full of them selfs but power is tempory.

Its not temporary. The unions ridiculous labor costs have had permanent effects. They are at least 50% of why the automakers are in trouble now --perhaps more. What good is a union if the company they are bargaining against/with goes under? (especially if it goes under in part due to the union itself) It isn't a little off balance to say that they should have costs in keeping with the industry standard where UAW doesn't exist. In fact, that would be the definition of balance.

[smockers83]

the unions are a god givin right in the us and to say the should be givin any thing less than what they fought for is well a lil off balance

They are not a God given right and the labor movement didn't really start until after the Civil War and some unions have lost sight of why they're really there. They have fought for much more than what they're worth, apparently you haven't seen the numbers. Lets just say that by through crude methods (simple arithmetic) and with data provided elsewhere, I've estimated that the Big 3 pay their unionized workers, on average, $50,000 more per year per employee than Toyota. Apply that across all three companies and their labor force, that's $10 billion more. Spread out over the years, think of the money wasted on its labor force and the inefficiencies it produced. Just think of where these companies could be at right now were they able to put that money towards product development. Mmhmm. The UAW is very inefficient for the industry (and some of its workers, too).

[Cold_Zero]

I guess having worked in two Teamsters shops and coming from a family with UAW, NEA and Steal Workers union members I tend to view the unions in a different manner. While the right to Unionize may not be a 'God Given Right' guaranteed under the US Constitution, but it still is a right that is protected by the US Code. So why should anyone be denied the right to be represented by a Union? My wife has been working with out a contract for a few years. We are still waiting for the two sides to finish negotiating their contract. I believe they were offered a 1% raise. That doesn't even cover the cost of living increase for a past few years. But they wanted to give the coaches a 3% raise. WTF /end personal rant

Last year we lost Kelly (wife's cousin) at the Chrysler Transmission Casting plant, where he was crushed to death. Chrysler was fined by the State OSHA agency for three violations on that machine related to his death. For the record, there had been various safety complaints about the safety of the machine lodged to management and nothing was done about it. I still remember people in the local newspaper were flinging poop (online) in the comments section of his obituary because they had an Anti Union agenda. It was neither the time nor the place to be fronting an agenda, when the family hadn't even put their child into the ground. It is very easy to press a bottom line number on what the labor cost is per unit and then imply that that keeps the Big 3 from being profitable. You tend to loose site that being an Auto Worker is a dangerous job, that Industrial Accidents do happen (more than there should be) and there is a human cost to building these vehicles.The UAW had been working with the big three to help the company be more profitable. The Big 3 were helped by the UAW to close plants, offer early retirements and to re-negotiate labor contracts with existing workers for a better price. Unfortunately, when the Liquidity Crisis hit the Big 3 they are two-three years into a 10-year plan. But I am sorry; I keep going back to GM under funding the Delphi Workers' Pension plan to the tune of 5 billion dollars. They nearly had their production facilities seized by the US Government and foreign Governments for violating ERISA laws. That just doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy that GM is all that competent. Sorry.

[Cold_Zero]

BTW, we are talking about Unions... Where is telcoman?

[OriginalWheelman]

Modified by OriginalWheelman at 8:28 AM 12/5/2008

[hsckris]

First off, I'm sorry for your loss. Sucks.

You tend to loose site that being an Auto Worker is a dangerous job, that Industrial Accidents do happen (more than there should be) and there is a human cost to building these vehicles.

While I agree, that still doesn't explain why random autoworker A should make more than random autoworker B simply b/c A works at GM, Ford, or Chrysler and B works at Nissan, Honda, Toyota, etc. IMO the union is great for benefits, safety (which apparently they weren't doing a good job of a Chrysler), etc. but the market should dictate wages. The union should only step in on wages when they are unfairly low as compared to the market for that labor.

But I am sorry; I keep going back to GM under funding the Delphi Workers' Pension plan to the tune of 5 billion dollars. They nearly had their production facilities seized by the US Government and foreign Governments for violating ERISA laws. That just doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy that GM is all that competent. Sorry.

2 things here -- no company or person is perfect. In fact, to expect perfection is insane. I'm not saying they didn't screw up, I'm just saying does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to compete? As I've said, my solution would be to revamp management as well as the union contracts.

[Jesda]

Unions are free to organize and maintain higher wages and benefits.

Firms are free to go to Mexico. GM has expanded rapidly in China.

[OriginalWheelman]

GM has expanded rapidly in China.

Let us give our tax dollars to GM so they can go spend them in China, our country's biggest military threat.

[smockers83]

I guess having worked in two Teamsters shops and coming from a family with UAW, NEA and Steal Workers union members I tend to view the unions in a different manner.

My aunt works at GM and is currently applying for other jobs. I know several steel worker members in the mines in MI.

Quote »I believe they were offered a 1% raise. That doesn't even cover the cost of living increase for a past few years.[/quote]Which is a major reason why we're in the liquidity crisis we're in because wages weren't rising with inflation so people kept borrowing money to make up the difference to continue living the lifestyle they held. The American wage has become less and less over the past decade in real terms.

Quote »You tend to loose site that being an Auto Worker is a dangerous job, that Industrial Accidents do happen (more than there should be) and there is a human cost to building these vehicles.[/quote]Same could be said of tellers and other people on the floor of banks. Its a dangerous job as a random crazy could come into the bank and shoot it up, especially as the economy gets worse. Should they get paid more because of that? Fact of the matter is, the world is not a safe place, so to speak. But I understand your point. Unions are great for worker safety, that I agree with. But I also say that wages should be determined by the market. If the union is complaining about jobs being sent overseas, well guess what...its your own fault. You overpriced your labor force and the company can go elsewhere for cheaper labor and make the firm more efficient. The beauty of trade and the free movement of capital. Hail capitalism!