Re: Fun cars, where did they go?

[Bubba1]

So I've had my 'sploder for a little over 10yrs now. It bounds around much like an RV on saggy springs and worn shocks, but I treat it nicely and get pretty good gas mileage in return (always over 20mpg per tank, yet it's rated 18 hwy)...but it's nearly 13y/o and has 134k miles on it. I'm really going to need to look for another vehicle. This year, I said if I did well on my midterms I'd buy another car and I just found out I got an A on my Physics 3 midterm. One more to go...

So, on to my vehicle search. I've been checking market prices for a while, reading up on cars, factoring depreciation rates and other costs, and have come to a short list of available cars.
-Jag XK, 2nd gen. Pros: Beautiful car, albeit not as beautiful as the 1st gen, but it has a more reliable engine and the body/chassis is aluminum, so less rust concern. Cons: Not great MPG. Depreciation is high. Will be uncomfortable for my youngest in the back.
-Cayman S. Pros: Good MPG, Manual!, small fun car. Cons: Have to drive my Sploder to get the kids.
-C6 Vette. Pros: Good MPG, Manual, performance. Cons: Can't fit my kids, will probably wreck it...just being honest.
-Porsche 911 '05-06. Pros: I can fit my kids in the back. Cons: Crazy expensive for what it is! Only 26 MPG hwy.
-BMW 335d. Pros: Great MPG, 4-doors. Cons: Once you factor in the premium for diesel and urea, the great MPG isn't so great.

And these are the cars that might actually stand a chance...
-BMW 135i. Pros: Good enough MPG, Manual, seats 4. Cons: Wish it had better MPG.
-Infiniti G37. Pros: Seats 4, interior is nice, depreciation isn't too bad. Cons: It's impossible to find a RWD, MT, Coupe! Wish the MPG was better.

So there it is, pretty much the 135i and G37 are the only RWD, MT cars available with pretty good MPG, that my kids can fit in, and is within my budget. Am I missing any?

Bubba1:

Both are very good choices when you add kids to the mix. I've had a students with both cars. I enjoyed driving both a lot, though I think the bigger G might be more versatile when you add kiddies and their stuff to the mix, both of which are destined to get bigger. FWIW, I know 2 guys with 335D's. One occasionally uses his at the track. They are extremely comfortable, nice cars. And the diesels will surprise you by how quiet and torquey they'll feel. Very different from the clackity clackity crop dusting stuff from 1970's/80's diesels that that people tend think of when they hear diesels.

As far as other fun RWD sedans cars that handle kiddies, you might also consider the Cadillac CTS-V, though you trade great speed/power with worse gas mileage and a small notch down in average reliability from the 135i or G.

Have fun test driving.

[Bubba1]

Looney: I accidently hit edit instead of quote, so your initial post now looks like I wrote it. Sorry about that!! I just restored the content from your initial post, and added my comment below it.

Bubba

[frapjap]

The Mustang or Camaro with sport packages can do most of all those things, too. Mileage is decent, but not incredible. The kids will fit less and less better in the back seat each year.

[SX APPEAL]

I'd look hard at the CTS-V, you can get a very nice low(er) mileage 1st gen for well under 20K, it'll do anything and more performance wise than any of those other cars you mentioned, and your kids will fit fine in the back. As for maintenance and reliability... its a Chevy 5.7, you can fix it with a hammer and a piece of string.

[lne937s]

I would also take a look at the BMW 228i. I had the opportunity to autocross one at the BMW Ultimate Driving Experience recently and it is definitely a fun little car and a big improvement from the previous generation 1 series. Faster than an Ecoboost Mustang (0-60 in 4.9s), rated 36 mpg highway, and starts at $32k. While that is a bit more $ up front than some of the muscle cars, I figure you would get much of it back in resale and reduced fuel consumption... and you'd have a better car to drive in the mean time. It is smaller on the outside, bigger on the inside (sat in the back while instructor took us around the course and I'm 6'), lighter and has much better visibility. I enjoy driving more when I have a better view of the world outside. Personally, I think the upgrade to the 235i does not justify the cost increase.

So if you want a fun, RWD, manual, 2-door, with a useable back seat... I would go with a M37/Q60 or a 228i.

[Looneybomber]

I didn't consider the CTS-V due to reliability issues with the electronics/techno gismos, and I'd really like around 28+ MPG hwy (Audi S5 got dismissed for the same reasons). That said, the 228i looks interesting - great MPG, same HP as my s2000, and will fit kids...but once I add in the M-package and other options, it's nearly $40k. Ouch. I'll go check it out though!

Looney: I accidently hit edit instead of quote, so your initial post now looks like I wrote it. Sorry about that!! I just restored the content from your initial post, and added my comment below it.

Bubba

WAT!?

[RicerX]

I would also take a look at the BMW 228i. I had the opportunity to autocross one at the BMW Ultimate Driving Experience recently and it is definitely a fun little car and a big improvement from the previous generation 1 series. Faster than an Ecoboost Mustang (0-60 in 4.9s), rated 36 mpg highway, and starts at $32k. While that is a bit more $ up front than some of the muscle cars, I figure you would get much of it back in resale and reduced fuel consumption... and you'd have a better car to drive in the mean time. It is smaller on the outside, bigger on the inside (sat in the back while instructor took us around the course and I'm 6'), lighter and has much better visibility. I enjoy driving more when I have a better view of the world outside. Personally, I think the upgrade to the 235i does not justify the cost increase.

So if you want a fun, RWD, manual, 2-door, with a useable back seat... I would go with a M37/Q60 or a 228i.

I was so taken aback by the numbers you posted I went to car and driver myself to find performance metrics for that car. Needless to say, I'm super impressed. For a second I was positive you were talking about the 235i.

[SX APPEAL]

So if you want a fun, RWD, manual, 2-door, with a useable back seat... I would go with a M37/Q60 or a 228i.

M37? ...G37?

[Heavy]

1st gen IS300 with a stick?

[Looneybomber]

I was so taken aback by the numbers you posted I went to car and driver myself to find performance metrics for that car. Needless to say, I'm super impressed. For a second I was positive you were talking about the 235i.

You're not kidding. I read up on the 228i more and on paper, it looks like it'd be perfect for me! Too bad it's 39k once I add in options. That's nearly the price of the M235i since it includes all the things I want.

1st gen IS300 with a stick?

I looked into the 2nd gen IS350, but I have yet to come across a low mileage, RWD, MT with the Mark Levinson audio package. That car may not exist? I don't want to write off Lexus, I just have yet to find one that fits what I'm looking for. I'm trying to stay on the newer side of things, ideally not older than 2010.

[Jesda]

First-gen CTS-V is a pretty dependable muscle sedan. Gen 2 does get a bit more complex but far more pleasant.

I'd strongly consider a Cayman. The C6 is a strong contender too but the visibility is poor -- only the convertible would work for me.

[lne937s]

So if you want a fun, RWD, manual, 2-door, with a useable back seat... I would go with a M37/Q60 or a 228i.

M37? ...G37?

sorry, meant G37... I wish they would just stick to names... In Japan, it is just the Nissan Skyline 2 door

[MinisterofDOOM]

First-gen CTS-V is a pretty dependable muscle sedan.

They're ridiculously cheap these days, too. Really, no excuse not to own one if you want one.

-Jag XK, 2nd gen. Pros: Beautiful car, albeit not as beautiful as the 1st gen, but it has a more reliable engine and the body/chassis is aluminum, so less rust concern. Cons: Not great MPG.

In my experience, EPA ratings for the AJV8 are full of s***. The LS8 with its AJ35, for instance, is rated at 16/22 and 18 combined. I hoon the @$%^ out of mine and get 17-18 city and 25-28 highway. A little more careful behavior can easily achieve 30 highway (I've managed 29 with semi-careful driving). My reading about the XK and S-type suggests that its leaping-cat-badged contemporaries suffered similar Federal slander.

[Looneybomber]

So I made it out to some dealerships and test drove a few cars.

First up, 2010 G37s coupe, RWD, 7sp auto. Fully loaded, with every option you can click. It seems 1 out of 20 or 30 G37s I came across were RWD coupes. Most were sedans and pretty much all were AWD. For me, AWD is a deal breaker. The car was very nice - loved the interior, back up camera, audio, and room in the back seat area (good enough for kids). Did not get the least bit excited while driving it and found myself questioning just how much HP the car actually had. Overall impression was that I found a car I could drive around like a grandpa and be comfortable.

Next up, 2009 BMW 135i M-Sport, 6sp steptronic, not at all fully loaded. The interior is so bland in those cars and the instrument cluster, after driving the G37, makes me think of a 10y/o Ford Focus. Just so boring. Back seat? Well, kids may fit in there, but not 2 adults for any length of time due to their knees in the seats! However, once I started it up, and heard that exhaust note as the salesman tells me "keep it below 100. No seriously, below 100", I started smirking a little. I soon learned why he said "no seriously", because this car rips! The torque off the line and the power through the midrange is fantastic! W/o traction control on, I was breaking the tires loose constantly, including in front of the dealership (was trying to figure out the paddle shifters). My friend was with me (female) as my motherly voice of reason, and all she kept saying was "no", while shaking her head.

While I'm trying to find something that is kid friendly, which the 135i is not, I can't help but think how unimpressed I was in the G37 and how much trouble I would get into if I owned the 135i. Maybe a 335i would be a good choice?

[Kompresshun]

I think the 335i would be an outstanding choice as long as you can deal with the repairs and hit or miss reliability that seems to come with them. I absolutely love BMW's, but never have bought one simply for the fear of it not being a reliable daily driver. My personal mechanic is a huge BMW fan, but the only one he recommends is the E46 3 series - he says if you buy any of the others you better just leave your wallet open.

I've driven a G37S Coupe in the same exact configuration and I absolutely loved it. I also loved the sedans too though that i've driven. I just feel like you get a lot of nice features and quality for a much better bargain than it's competition.

I didn't see you mention them so i'm gonna throw it out there - What about a Mustang? You could pick up a used Mustang GT with the 5.0 and track pack for probably around the same price as the cars you've been looking at. It doesn't get outstanding MPG, but it would be a hell of a lot of fun. Personally I think what you've mentioned would be better vehicles, but it's just another idea to throw out there.

[MinisterofDOOM]

It seems 1 out of 20 or 30 G37s I came across were RWD coupes. Most were sedans and pretty much all were AWD. For me, AWD is a deal breaker.

I share this frustration. I still don't quite understand why everyone buys a sport sedan and then neuters it with AWD. It's frustrating enough when AWD dominates the used market, but it's beginning to ruin the new market as well. At the Cadillac dealer down the street, EVERY SINGLE ATS and CTS is AWD. ALL OF THEM. WTF?! What if I want to test-drive the two back-to-back? Just because it snows doesn't mean AWD is mandatory. It's infuriating. I have less interest in an AWD CTS than I have in a Camry.

[Looneybomber]

I walked on one lot and a scoped out a couple cars; Automatics. The salesman walks up and asks what I'm looking for. I responded "Manual G37s coupe, manual 135i, manual 335i". He replies, "oh that's a problem, we don't have a single manual on the lot". Seriously, an entire lot of automatics!?

[float_6969]

Welcome to 2014. The era of cars that drive themselves and manuals being relegated the cheapest of econoboxes.

[Looneybomber]

So I brought the G37s home for an overnight test drive. I've done about 50 miles, mixed city/hwy and I'm averaging 27.2mpg - it's rated 27 hwy. I figured I'd be around 30 because I was driving easy, at some points, going 50 in a 70 (top of hills). I did have a bad head wind all the way to Lawrence from KC though. Compared to the 135i with steptronic, it down shifts SLOOW. I nearly turned a block early, so I put on my blinker and punched it to merge in order to get to the correct intersection. The slow shift to 1st and lack of low end torque made that maneuver dicey. For normal everyday driving at a 2/10th's pace, this car is pretty awesome! Little wind noise from the A-pillars, but the seats are comfy, the interior (off white leather) looks great, the premium Bose stereo (a must with the wind noise) is good enough, and the navigation is fine. There's plenty of user options when going through the settings, including how long the interior lights stay on after shutting the door.

Overall, I could live with this car and will likely NOT get speeding tickets. Nothing about this car makes me want to drive hard/fast. It's just not a fun car for spirited driving - maybe it's less engaging due to the automatic, but the 135i was also an auto and all I wanted to do was find the nearest auto-x course. I think the G37s is a fine old man car with kids (I'm 32...). I'll point out some cosmetic flaws I've found and see if I can get them to knock the price back a bit. It's been on their lot since late April according to CarFax.

[frapjap]

Hit 'em with something reasonable but low. Try the "fair market value" from Edmunds as an offer. They probably won't like it, but as long as you stick to your guns and don't move at all on price, they'll probably eventually take your offer- especially since its been hanging around the dealership for so long.

If they negotiate you into the +/- $500 range of what you offered, they want to deal. If you stick to your guns, they'll probably move to the $200 zone, though playing hardball with you asking "what's $200, really?" My most recent answer to that was "three trips to the grocery store." They may try for $100, but stick to your number and I bet you nail it because they're going to want to move that car. They're just trying to get that last bit of cash from you since they know you're serious.

[Jesda]

In addition to the Z4, the 1-series is the last BMW that drives the way a BMW is supposed to. Everything else BMW makes is Lexusified (pussified) for fat suburban American moms with permanent grins from botox and collagen injections.

Don't buy a car you can live with. Buy a car that makes living great. Screw the G37.


Hell, I have more fun bouncing and floating around in my Deville with the pedal on the floor than I have in most late model Infinitis.


Your kid will forgive you for buying the better car. No one wants a lame, boring, beta male loser for a dad.

Heck, I still give my dad a hard time for his Camry hybrid. He got a Fiat Abarth not long after, likely to stop my Facebook bullying.

[Kompresshun]

Heck, I still give my dad a hard time for his Camry hybrid. He got a Fiat Abarth not long after, likely to stop my Facebook bullying.

Maybe I should let you bully my father-in-law for driving a Prius V. I've tried, but they still won't get rid of the god forsaken thing. My favorite thing is when he talks about the "POWER" button on the dash that makes it go faster when they're on the interstate

I agree with Jesda too, even though I don't have anything against the G37 itself. Buy what you want because you only live once. I have been the sensible route numerous times and it can be quite boring.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

[Jesda]

[float_6969]

Yea, it's done been broughten now. Trust me Dustin. Don't get a car you don't love to drive. You'll come to resent it. Ask me how I know.

[MinisterofDOOM]

As no-choice rural Enterprise rentals have taught me, a sub-par car will ruin a good drive in zero seconds flat. Don't settle. Find something that'll make you smile every time you drive it. It's been a long time since I owned a car that didn't do that, and I have a feeling that has just a TEENY bit to do with the fact that I enjoy driving more than most other people.

And that doesn't mean find something perfect, either. Interesting cars are usually the most flawed cars, but that (be it causality or coincidence) tends to come attached to character. Cars without character are like food without flavor.

I love driving my LS8 so much. It's not very powerful, it's not very luxurious, it doesn't handle as well as a sports car, it's not very fast; but every time I start it up, it lets me know it wants to play. There's no such thing as a daily drive when your car makes you smile.

[Looneybomber]

Heh, today, both dealerships came down $1000 on each car. I countered the Infiniti dealership to see if they'd come down another 1000, since they called me! That G37 turned out to be a pretty fun car - loving the premium audio, plush interior, nav/entertainment, blue tooth, etc. For everyday living, the car is pretty awesome! Only averaged 20.2mpg due to some spirited driving around town and a few burnouts. That's a little worse than my 12y/o explorer gets, but I hypermile it and piss off every driver around me.

[Jesda]

[Marcmywords]

I am a former BMW owner myself, I ended up trading in my 2008 335i for a 2013 g37. Yes the Beemer was fun, but I had major overheating issues with it whenever I pushed the car hard. I say avoid it unless you got the stomach for the repairs.

[OriginalWheelman]

And that doesn't mean find something perfect, either. Interesting cars are usually the most flawed cars, but that (be it causality or coincidence) tends to come attached to character. Cars without character are like food without flavor.

Like when I'm shopping and I have to stop and look at my cart and ask myself "Will this fit in the Miata's trunk?" I've saved a lot of money. Buying bulk paper towels is impossible... with the top up...