Frustrated-Help Please-Running Rough

[AlabamaDan]

Ah! I'm so frustrated. My Q has been running great, so I decided to shine it up and make it look like it runs. Everytime I do something goes wrong. This time the day after I washed it I lost a wheel center cap and it started running rough.

When you're sitting at a red light it lopes like some old muscle car, which is rather annoying. When you're driving it has lost some power and you can still feel that shutter. It sounds like it's missing or something. The service engine light is on. It all started Sunday morning.

I thought it was the MAF. I took it off and cleaned it with electrical parts cleaner and replaced. No change. I had an extra, which I exchanged out. No change.

NOW WHAT?!?!?

I'm supposed to leave Thursday and drive 300 miles to the coast for the week - in this car.

[maxnix]

Well, Dan, you know the drill.

What have you done? Ohm tested the injectors? How old are the plugs? Fuel pump? Fuel filter? Is this only at idle and constant cruise, or is there a miss under acceleration loading?

Give us some help here!
Modified by maxnix at 6:50 AM 7/1/2008

[goody90q45]

You've probably have a bad injector. Ohm them- It won't take 5 minutes. If you're lucky it's #1, #2 or #8 and you'll be purring again with minimum headaches. Pull the codes next. Good luck.

[tegva]

I had the exact same problem a few weeks ago on a 94Q45. First cleaned the MAS and nothing changed then I checked the injectors and one was open. Since the injectors were all original I decided to send the fuel rails to Deatschwerks. It turned out that I had three bad injectors. Two injectors ohmed fine staticaly but not dynamically.

[Q45tech]

Glad to see more 94-96 Injectors are failing, so that the 90-93 don't feel so lonely.

I assume you have purchased a few E10 gallons and water somewhere.

The following is pure fantasy but could happen:

By the time those ethanol tanker trains get from Midwest to Dixie who knows how many wineos and bootleggers sample the recipe and refill the missing amounts from their body or other substitutes.

5% gasoline as a denaturent is much safer than the previous methanol or other things used to make it so called unsuitable for human consumption

The high corn prices have put bootleggars out of business BUT if they use the denatured ethanol in their old stills they can get most of gasoline out by repeated redistilling with low volitilty summer gas as denaturent........doesn't work well with winter grade gasoline.

Actually you can use some fairly low cost chemicals Sulfuric Acid and Calcium oxide. They even make molecular size sleves and zeolytes just for purpose of separating the two.

I wouldn't drink it but but better than Sterno Jelly or Shaving Lotion.

My Dad was a State Revenue Agent in the 50-60's and I got to see all those stills, corn mash, sugar...........he always saved a few as extra evidence.

Young people today missed a great Dixie cultural experience.

[AlabamaDan]

Well, Dan, you know the drill.

What have you done? ...How old are the plugs? Fuel pump? Fuel filter?

Well all the stuff in my signature was done. Last summer, (or 2500 miles ago) I did all that work to my Q. Changed the plugs, cleaned the MAF, the TB, the EGR, the inside of the plenum, changed the fuel filter. The fuel pump does buzz a little, but has for years.

Is this only at idle and constant cruise, or is there a miss under acceleration loading?

It's very noticable at idle, even my wife noticed. At constant cruise it's not really that bad, I'm not sure if I can even feel it. Under heavy accerlation you don't notice the shudder, but the power's not there like it should be.

Ohm tested the injectors?

Now that you mention it I'm afraid it's an injector problem. I was hoping it was the MAF last night. (At least I know the spare MAF works.) I haven't tested them. There was a thread by goody somewhere that talked about that...

I've continued to use premium and still hit the same stations as always, but there probably is more E10 gas around now.

I spent two hours trying to get ECUtalk up and running on an old laptop last night to pull the codes. Maybe tonight.

I really need to drive it this weekend. Will driving 600 miles with a bad injector damage anything?

[maxnix]

Best bet would be to ohm your injectors, and if one is bad, have Joe overnight a new one and some gaskets, depending.

If injectors are good, fuel pressure test immediately, then overnight new pump and O ring.
Modified by maxnix at 10:07 AM 7/1/2008

[AlabamaDan]

Been looking. Where's that thread where Goody talked about how to test the ohms. Had pictures and everything. I don't even have a tool for that. Gonna have to go buy one.

How about this question - Will driving 600 miles with a bad injector damage anything?

[96Qowner]

Yeah, I would think injector, first thing. The South has just recently gotten ethanol, and Dennis has been keeping us updated on T3's experiences.

I'm disappointed to hear that the 94-96 injectors are failing, too. I thought Keith had a solution when he swapped the 94-96s in.

Fortunately, I'm still able to run non-oxygenated 92 marine gas.

Check out marinas.

http://www.q45.org/ohminjectors.html

[Q45tech]

http://www.buyusa.gov/thailand/th/ethanol.pdf

Inside doc are some pictures of injectors and fuel senders damaged from out of spec ethanol caused by too much sulphates or chlorides.

[96Qowner]

How about this question - Will driving 600 miles with a bad injector damage anything?

That's the sort of question I'd ask, but on this forum, I know there are only two answers:

1. Yes, of course it will - don't do it.

2. Not really - not a good idea but probably won't "destroy" anything.

The injectors should run better at highway rpms anyway. If it were me, I'd do it.

[Q45tech]

Will driving 600 miles with a bad injector damage anything

Yes and no! Unfortunately the O2 system will try to make the average of 4 cylinder bank correct.

The O2 can richen the other 3 by a TOTAL of 20% to bring net to 14.7 AF at cruise so the others will run 12 AF.

It will be ubcomfortable with AC on and any hills or acceleration but driveable. Any cat damage is unknown?

The longest I've driven was 90 minutes and 90 miles.

Any damages will be to bearings from the vibration and unbalance so limit rpms and acceleration stress.

Use brand new oil and filter Mobile 1 syn would give you a little extra safety.

I wouldn't do it personally if I cared about engine but who knows.

[Q45tech]

Disconnect the O2 on the bank where the injector has failed to avoid extra fuel enrichment.

What happens if you lose another one on the way? Why you must measure them all before you go as you will get a tank or two of different fuel during trip.

[AlabamaDan]

I wouldn't do it personally if I cared about engine but who knows.

Well you know I care about my Q, but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I am running M1 oil and filter. It was changed less thatn 3k ago and still looks nice and clear.

Like Goody said, maybe it's one of the injectors I can reach without pulling the plenum. IF only I had pulledsome when I had a chance from that 94 junker. I wasn't thinking.

BTW, here's info on checking injectors: http://www.q45.org/ohminjectors.html

[96Qowner]

here's a listing in B'ham for WC Rice Oil Company, Inc.

2511 28th St SWBirmingham, AL , 35211-5246 Phone: 205-925-6230FAX: 205-925-2245

Products Description:Petroleum bulk station Fuels, Fuel Oils, Solid and gel fuels, Petroleum and distillates, Kerosene, Naphtha, Aviation fuel, Diesel fuel, Gasoline or Petrol, Benzene, Crude oil, Marine fuel, Condensate

I bet they'd tell you who they supply with marine fuel.

[AlabamaDan]

I bought a multimeter this afternoon. $4.50 at Harbor Freight.

I plugged the red probe into the center spot for ohms and the black probe into the com port per inx. I also set it to 200 in the ohms section, per the inx.

Using the info I found on Q45.org, I checked my injectors from the harness. Results:

1 = 11.92 = 12.03 = 12.04 = no reading5 = 11.96 = 11.97 = 12.18 = 12.0

As you can tell, this is my first experience with a multimeter. These numbers jump around alot but the numbers I've used are the ones I saw the most. No. 4 wouldn't do anything. It just sat there with a "1" on the left side of the screen like it isn't reading anything. Wouldn't it read something? I'm afraid it is me.

I do have that pesky service engine light. I can't seem to get the consult interface working to put a computer on my car. What's the low tech method to get that code?

BTW, I called Jeff Williams and he adequately scared me into not driving my car this weekend. Either I'll drive the 88 Jeep or not go. The jeep has troubles of its own, but it's not as special as the Q I guess.

[goody90q45]

You're doing it correctly and the reading on #4 means you have a dead injector. When you pull the codes if you get an "injector signal circuit" (code 21) it means that the connector to the FI has come unplugged or the harness is bad. If you see code 45 (Injector failure) it confirms your injector Ohm readings. You can probably reach your hand under the plenum and make sure #4 is still connected. It's all wishful thinking as you probably have a dead injector and it's not one of the easy ones to get to.

Since your consult isn't working you'll need to pull the ECU to read the codes and make sure it's a dead injector vs. a bad connection. Here's the Q45.org version:

http://www.nicoclub.com/articles.php?id=60332

[maxnix]

Bingo! Better call Joe and get the gaskets, at least.

Good going.

[oldmako]

Holy crap! maxxnix gave you a freakin' "Bingo".

[Q451990]

You're doing it correctly and the reading on #4 means you have a dead injector. When you pull the codes if you get an "injector signal circuit" (code 21) it means that the connector to the FI has come unplugged or the harness is bad. If you see code 45 (Injector failure) it confirms your injector Ohm readings.

I saw that code 21 on a 95 Q with intermittently failing injectors... I'm not sure that a dead injector won't trigger that code as well, since an open injector should look the same to the ECU as an unplugged one.

AlabamaDan,

I guess your next question is do you want to just replace one injector or all of them? I have two (last time I checked) ohming bad but I went from one bad to two bad in 60 miles of driving. At this point any of them could go at any time - very frustrating.

The fun part is that there is no confirmed long term fix for these... I'm in the process of checking out some aftermarket injectors. At least I need to go to Advance Auto and see if they will let me return them if the DeutchWerks test is unacceptable. Here's a thread on them. zerothread/347484

I think I will try the 94-96 style since they are considerably cheaper in the aftermarket parts, even considering buying the newer style subharness and rails. If I were going back with an OEM injector, there are some that look like factory ones on eBay for about $90 each. Luckily I have the luxury of driving my truck while I figure out what I'm going to do... and the wife's G on weekends and evenings.

Heath
Modified by Q451990 at 1:17 AM 7/2/2008

[AlabamaDan]

OK. Got the macintosh up and running with the consult interface cable. It isn't the fanciest software and other than giving me the fault codes from the ecu I didn't get much out of it. But then, that's all I wanted for now isn't it. Fault Code listed is 34 (Knock Sensor) and 51 (Injector Analysis.) That's not what we were expecting is it.
Modified by AlabamaDan at 12:19 AM 7/2/2008

[Q451990]

34 = knock sensors... might as well replace them and their harness when you pull the plenum.

51 = injector

Heath

[AlabamaDan]

Oh this is bad. So what you're telling me is that my #4 injector is bad and some knock sensors. I've got to pull the plenum off to change those and might as well get that $1000 hose kit while I'm at it. Since I'm going to break some of the hoses when I pull it off anyway. Plus those stinking injectors are what $200 each? This is all very dark and dreary.

[AlabamaDan]

You know I'm miffed about this. I know the Q is high maintenance and I don't mind regular maintenance items, but why does it have to be such a pain in the @$$ sometimes. If I have to pull the plenum off, it's a lot more than $200 for an injector. I certainly don't want to have to pull that thing off muliple times and it's intimidating. I knew it would have to happen sometime, but I didn't want it to be now when money is so tight. Plus, I always said if I pull it off I want to do something with it like powder coat it or polish it, but I'm not ready. The smart thing to do would be replace all injectors, clean the rails, replace the KS and replace all the hoses under there. Poof then I'm done.

I mean I've got to fix it. The list of things that can go wrong is shrinking. I've already fixed and replaced all the suspension parts, brakes and tires. I changed the plugs and VC gaskets. New belts and tensioners. I fixed the AC. Runs good. Looks fair to me, great by some standards. This plenum job and a water pump and everything's new right? Venting over - thanks. (This is where my uncle would throw a wrench across the shop, stop working and get drunk.)

OK. So how does an injector go from working and no trouble, to just dead? I'm still not confident that's the trouble - or am I in denial? Could it be that a connection on the harness has just come loose? Maybe the coil pack?

[oldmako]

Hi Dan. That sucks.

From reading it sounds as though the Ethanol is the chief culprit in injector failures and if that's the case then we will all have to adjust to frequent replacement. All of the discussions I have read thus far indicate that the pre 96 cars seem to be particularly prone to injector issues from ethanol.

I bought my car last fall and it has run great ever since (just over 12000 miles). Virginia has been pumping ethanol for years and it has been screwing up lots of machinery aside from cars. Boat fuel tanks for example. Should my 99 start eating injectors I will get rid of it. I love the car, nicest one I've ever owned but the hassle and cost involved will overcome all it's appeal.

My 96 chevy truck has the original injectors and has 230,000 miles on it. I am willing to spend a fair amount of time and cash on getting my old Q nice, however I will not invest that time and energy for a recurring and expensive problem.

[maxnix]

Dan, you didn't state your mileage, but at 100K or so, every plenum needs to come off to get clean. Once you are in there, plugs, VC gaskets, KS and harness and hoses become inevitable as you don't want to go back.

If it is your first time, taking the whole fuel rail out then the individual injector is far preferable to trying to short cut it by leaving the fuel rail in, as attested by a few threads.

Good luck. Teh knowledge is here in the posts.

[Q451990]

Dan, you didn't state your mileage, but at 100K or so, every plenum needs to come off to get clean.

It's in his signature line... about 150K - but I think you have those turned off.

Dan. I'm 99.9999% sure it's an injector, not a coil pack or something easy. That's what the ohm test told you. I don't think we really know how long it takes an injector to go from reading high to totally bad. On two occasions mine have had a dead miss, only to heal themselves, but read much higher. So like anything electrical it can be intermittant... it might be time to drive something else in your fleet for a few weeks while you get more comfortable with the work ahead and price tag... makes me mad too though.

Heath

[96Qowner]

Here are Keith's (texasoil) posts about ethanol and injectors and the mode of failure:

Re: swelling and resistance: I took a 20 ohm original injector (not too bad but out of tolerance and not going back in), and put it in a jar of 20% ethanol in gasoline. In one day it went from 20 to >2K, and in 2 days went to infinity (open) Q.E.D. as they used to put in my Calculus books-the proof is complete. I do not know if later potting compounds are similarly damaged by ethanol--I suspect not since MTBE was in wide use by mid 90's.

zerothread?id=215772

zerothread?id=189875

[maxnix]

It's in his signature line... about 150K - but I think you have those turned off.

I do to save screen real estate.

[qship96]

Hi Dan. That sucks.

From reading it sounds as though the Ethanol is the chief culprit in injector failures and if that's the case then we will all have to adjust to frequent replacement. All of the discussions I have read thus far indicate that the pre 96 cars seem to be particularly prone to injector issues from ethanol.

I bought my car last fall and it has run great ever since (just over 12000 miles). Virginia has been pumping ethanol for years and it has been screwing up lots of machinery aside from cars. Boat fuel tanks for example. Should my 99 start eating injectors I will get rid of it. I love the car, nicest one I've ever owned but the hassle and cost involved will overcome all it's appeal.

My 96 chevy truck has the original injectors and has 230,000 miles on it. I am willing to spend a fair amount of time and cash on getting my old Q nice, however I will not invest that time and energy for a recurring and expensive problem.

I agree.....mine is gone if it develops injector or transmission problems, cant see sinking $2500-3000 for new OEM injectors that will not last as they have not improved the construction to eliminate the problem, or the value in dropping 3k into a new transmission.....and then have the injector problem rear its ugly head.....so whichever goes first{injectors or transmission} spells time for the Q retirement party