Found my turbo!!!!

[Iamjohnhayes]

im still not sure what im going to do turbo wise after the super60 but i am planning on doing a full Ka24e build but for now i just want to boost a little then fix some minor problems with my car and do more suspension work. and as i have said before im no expert in turbos. however i do get your point b/c a super 60 at 10 - 12psi should net close to a 100hp gain (taking into account a decent port/polish job and a cam among other mods) yet at 18 psi it might make around 280-300 hp which is only 30 - 50 hp more than 10psi

[Iamjohnhayes]

in all seriousness i would love to do a low boost high(er) compression but i am limited by the fact that pump gas in az ia only 91 octane at best and i am not using $4 a gallon race fuel in my daily driver

[Chezedik]

First, that is really cheap race gas! Second, if you want to go fast you need to understand that there is a trade off. You can use race gas and pull big boost, or use a big turbo, w/ low boost and run your stock motor, w/ 91 (which is as good as you get in KS or MO, too). So, I am going T04b. Here is a good link for maps:http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

[A34D4ME]

any reason for the change? you can get 300 hp out of a hybrid t3/t4 for not too much more than the 60trim t3. really the only reason i an using the super 60 is because im getting it with a bunch of turbo parts from a kid.

also dont quote me on this but i think you can get almost 300 hp and still be reasonally efficient at somewere around 18 psi or so.

Yah, $900+.

-$100 difference in turbo cost -$250 or more by using an internal waste gate that you wouldn't use with a T04E at 12lbs or so.-$400+ for a ACT clutch or the like. -$100 Larger injectors, -$100 boost sensor for Emanage.

Plus 300HP is pushing it with stock internals. The 60 trim will also spool a little faster and with less pedal so I can get boost down low for regular driving.

On another note.

I'm not a turbo expert but I suspect that some tubos reach a peak boost level but don't sustain it, while others can reach and hold that level as RPMs climb. I think this is what people mean when they say boost doesn't = HP or that one turbo will flow better.

I think are reffering to a certain WG setting or peak boost level, rather than a sustained boost level.

[Chezedik]

No, boost doesn't equal HP because with a larger turbo (bigger is more efficient) the air is cooler when it enters. What is more, since you are not compressing the air, you further compound the benefits of the cooler air. As far as if they hold boost or not, it is entirely dependent on the quality and performance of the WG. If the WG is working correctly, then boost will stay at it's preset peak, unless you run a WG that is too small and the turbo continues to spool up with the WG wide open. This is called boost creep. It is also a far more disturbing phenomenon than not being able to hold your peak boost.

[Iamjohnhayes]

First, that is really cheap race gas! Second, if you want to go fast you need to understand that there is a trade off. You can use race gas and pull big boost, or use a big turbo, w/ low boost and run your stock motor, w/ 91 (which is as good as you get in KS or MO, too). So, I am going T04b. Here is a good link for maps:http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

well i guess i was spoiled in nj where all "super" was 93 octane and really the race fuel isnt great race fuel its really just 100 octane for all the dirtbikes and quad in nj i remeber the few places that sold race fuel it was like 110.

and stock internals are capable of more than 300 hp but i really dont intend on going any higher than 300 (if i get that much) out of this setup. I do plan on fully building a ka-e for a big boost trubo setup. but for now i'll just boost the super 60 and a sidemount while i work on some suspension and brake ideas.

[A34D4ME]

No, boost doesn't equal HP because with a larger turbo (bigger is more efficient) the air is cooler when it enters. What is more, since you are not compressing the air, you further compound the benefits of the cooler air. As far as if they hold boost or not, it is entirely dependent on the quality and performance of the WG. If the WG is working correctly, then boost will stay at it's preset peak, unless you run a WG that is too small and the turbo continues to spool up with the WG wide open. This is called boost creep. It is also a far more disturbing phenomenon than not being able to hold your peak boost.

I was considering heat but the IC should cool things down. Of course, even the heat leaving the IC represents some lost power. I wonder how much heat we are talking in total. I can't see it amounting to more than 1/10 HP worth of heat though. I wonder if the smaller turbo's need to work harder creates more exhaust backpressure too.

Remeber though, the big turbos aren't more efficiant at lower boost.

[Iamjohnhayes]

well actually when it comes to intercoolers the loss in power is more so due to pressure drop. on my friends intercooler on his first gen eclipse (its about 30 x 15 x 4 its huge) the boost would read about 20 lbs on the compressor housing yet if you took the boost off of the intake manifold it would be around 17.

[A34D4ME]

well actually when it comes to intercoolers the loss in power is more so due to pressure drop. on my friends intercooler on his first gen eclipse (its about 30 x 15 x 4 its huge) the boost would read about 20 lbs on the compressor housing yet if you took the boost off of the intake manifold it would be around 17.

Sure, a lot of people don't know this but that pressure drop (assuming no leak) can be expected to an extent. Sorry if you know this already.

There are two ways to make pressure. 1) by forcing more air into a given space(good) and 2) by heating the air in a given space (bad). Actually you can reduce the space too but we aren't talking about that here.

Anyway, any two, temprature, pressure and volume will varry directly if the third is constant. In this case we take a given volume for simplicity, say one IC full and we cool it by 15% the result will be a pressure loss of 15%. Ever see a baloon go from a boiling pot to a freezer or visa versa?

So, I guess we can figure that 15% of what that turbo is producing is being given off as heat which is ultimatly lost energy. But not much.

Of course you could have a restrictive IC too, but the theory still holds.

Since one turbo might produce more heat at 20lbs, we would have to measure after the IC. Then we could truely say how much net boost the piston sees. I'd even say measure at the manifold. Doing it this way, I'd be interested to see how much difference there would be with two constant and equal manifold pressures and tempratures.

Trouble is, people measure boost at the compressor housing. I'm gunna go from manifold to wast gate and gauge. Then I'll be looking at true boost, not heat boost.

[Chezedik]

Boyle's, Loussic-Gay's, and somebody else's laws respectivly. The laws of pressure constant, in any case.

[Iamjohnhayes]

yeah for high school physics j/k

and i was just on the phone with my friendsand just for ****s and giigles he measured the boost of the compressor housing and then off the intake manifold. when he sets the boost controller (manual) so that he boost 25 psi of the compressor the boost of the manifold is just below 21 psi.

And if your wondering he drives a 1st gen gsx eclipse with fully built motor and i have no idea what kind of turbo he has other than its a frankenstien of 3 different ones and its about the size of a toilet bowl

[WDRacing]

Not reading all this, just one comment to make. For 500whp you need no cams or valvetrain mods at all....take the money you save and buy a N2O kit or whatever else you want. Maybe a alcohol injection kit...doubt me, ask Rick, he does it daily..er used to, he has some minor valvetrain work now I believe but he's way over 500 also.

[A34D4ME]

High school?

Try 2 semesters general chem + qual, 2 semesters organic chem and 2 semesters college physics. All with mother ****,**** sucking, son of a,**** 3 hour long lab sections.

[Chezedik]

Yup, Fluid Power Systems for me.

[Edub1]

Fluid power systems, is that anything like hydraulics?
Modified by Edub1 at 11:46 AM 1/7/2006

[WDRacing]

Fluid power systems, is that anything like hydrolics?

Hydraulics

[Edub1]

LOL, I knew it looked funny. Can't spell FS.

[Chezedik]

It is Hydraulics and Pneumatics.