Fords Suck

[RMiller]

I absolutely hate working on my Mustang. I'm pretty sure they use both metric and standard bolts and nuts, and the 90 degree block doesn't leave much room in the engine bay. A while ago I tried to install full length headers, but the exhaust manifold bolts were IMPOSSIBLE to remove. Anyway, the whole process netted me a small exaust leak(Ford doesn't like gaskets) that won't seem to go away, even with new studs and nuts. So, basically, as soon as my lease is up I'm leaving domestics and never looking back. Oh, and the brakes suck. I think cheaper ABS systems do more harm than good. My ABS kicks in when I pull into a parking spot at low speed. Compared to my sister's RSX-S, my car feels like a boat. It's terrible.

[JESTER]

Sell it. No seriously, get a friend do do that crap for you like I do. My hands are too big to get in most places on cars now days, not to mention I don't have patients. If your like me you have at least one friend that will work for a case of beer.

[RMiller]

Believe me, I would sell it if I could do so without taking a huge loss. It's a lease, so I owe the bank X dollars, and the car is worth much less than X. Just need to wait it out for a few more months.

[C-Kwik]

I tried to talk my friend out of buying a Mustang last night. She got it anyways. Her husband didn't help matters any even though he called me because he had doubts. It's an 02 V6. I drove it 30 feet to get it into a shop to install a stereo. The seating alone was enough to make me not like it.

I also drove an 02 Taurus for about 6 months(company car). I will never own a Ford. About the only thing nice about that car was the room. It was a wagon so it fit a lot of stuff. I'm glad to be out of it. And the ABS was definitely overly sensitive. While it's no performance car, it did not like any braking during turns.

[JESTER]

If I was buying an American made truck, it would be a Ford, and I would go for one of the 05 stangs, but other than that, no. I use to only drive Chevy's but they are pieces too. Then I got my Sentra and then my Tacoma. I will not go back.

[Bubba1]

May ask a dumb question? Why prompted you to get a Mustang in the first place?

[Jesda]

Theres a lot of potential in a Mustang. The aftermarket is tremendous. Plus, its pretty durable and built to handle a fair amount of torque.

[Bubba1]

Yeah, but they're built cheap, feel cheap, are unrefined, unreliable, and suck a lot of gas. I'm sure there is a lotta potential to them, 'cause they can't get that much worse. j/k

I actually don't mind driving mustangs, and I've driven several. But after driving them, I was not impressed enough to ever want to buy one. And the V-6s stangs I drove were downright anemic and uncomfortable (IMHO).

[Jesda]

The V6 Mustang is a chick car. And while its not refined and fit and finish are lacking, thats not its job. Its meant to be a crude beast (V8).

[Mr1der]

if it's got a T-5 it can't handle much power...

if you hate working under the hood of your mustang, you should give my car a try. It'll make you cry for a Mustang:)

and it is a boat. my brakes aren't quite big enough for it.

and Ford dumbed it down a little bit so the ****in' Mustang could be a few tenths quicker in the quarter mile...

[Bubba1]

Its meant to be a crude beast (V8).

I agree. I actually wouldn't mind a genuine Saleen or Rousch Stage 3, but that's about it for stangs.

[Mr1der]

Until next year anyway.

I hope for doesn't cop out on the interior of the new stang though.

then for 2006 things are gonna get nasty when the SVT cars return.

it'd be nice if they could actually make effort to start pulling themselves out of the reputation they've gotten.

GM hasn't, last I checked the Aveo was off the market already.

[JESTER]

They are still showing the stupid commercials. My sister bought one last month or so. "The new model Metro." She likes it. Good on gas and good room inside. A whole lot better than that damn Durango she had. The front wheel assembly was ready to fall off when my dad took it up the road to figure out what the vibration was from.

[RMiller]

May ask a dumb question? Why prompted you to get a Mustang in the first place?

I got it 4 years ago when I was 16 1/2. I wanted something w/ a lot of power and didn't know the potential of imports. I was looking at Camaros and Mustangs, at least I chose the lesser of 2 evils. I got it because I wasn't familiar with other performance cars.

[Jesda]

Actually, GM pulled the Aveo for a few days to make sure nothing about the car itself was the cause of five crashes. GM wanted to protect its reputation, reinspected the car, concluded it was safe, and put it back on the market. I think GM deserves a little praise for shrugging off some of its 80s corporate culture, speeding up product development, and dramatically improving quality (Cadillac ranks above all european luxury brands, Chevy Malibu beats accord and Camry for initial quality). If only it would shrug off more of its 80s platforms and designs.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04051/275188.stm

[stray]

ford does suck, but it seems that I like my '93 Ford Taurus Wagon (it was a gift) more than the others like their Mustangs or T-birds or the like.

Its fun to drive, but only in a "holy ****, I just took that onramp at 45!" kinda way. Its a hoot to try and extract more performance, and the thing really does have rediculous amounts of grip. and it doesnt torque-steer. It does, however, roll like its been put out to sea.

and get this- every so often, if Im driving a dirt road, I can get it to Oversteer JUST a little. thats fun, and just hilarious to think about. Havent had ABS trigger yet, despite a few *ahem* "brake Tests" in back alley parking lots and the like.

[krazy skwerel]

Chevy Malibu beats accord and Camry for initial quality

What about longevity of the vehichle? I mean most chevy's I have ever been around, especially FWD ones, go to complete crap around year 5. Where as many a toyota is just trooping along after 5 years. My grandmothers 1992 camry was still running awsome after 240,000 miles. If it hadn't been for the damn truck that hit her I am sure it would be well at 300,000 and running strong.

[Bubba1]

Yep, I agree. Malibooo may beat Camry in "initial quality", but Camry beats handily Malibu in reliability and resale value. So which car would you rather own for the long term? One that has wins awards for being assembled well but falls apart after 60K miles, or one that doesn't win the award but is proven to be far reliable and holds its value far better?

[Jesda]

Its a good question. But most Americans buy a new car every 4-5 years anyway. Style, features, and keeping with the Jones's. Its every 2 years at my house, so the cars are run into the ground (well, driven responsibly by adults) for 600 days and promptly replaced.

Except my Q and the minivan.

GM's 3800 pushrod V6 is a low-revving engine with lots of low-end power and excellent fuel efficiency, and while the rest of the car rusts off it still runs... forever. Its just that a 1990 Buick Century is too ugly and covered in rust to justify keeping much longer.

You'd find more power for the money and per pound in a 2004 Oldsmobile Alero than you will an Accord, Mazda6, or Camry. Honda and Toyota have already been surpassed by Hyundai and Kia for overall fit and finish and panel gaps. The Alero's rear view mirror has been known to come loose, and have lots of annoying rattles and squeaks in the interior pieces, but I've seen them run 200k+ without a hitch. Theyre even fun to drive.

And Nissan (crappy leather in new Nissan models, rattles in new Q45 and M45), GM, and Chrysler (300C interior simpy looks like crap) could use some quality improvements in their new interiors.

The most common complaint on the 97+ Malibu (previous generation) is having to replace pads and turn rotors 2-3 times a year. Thats a lot, and its been fixed on newer models, but I guess those folks complaining never owned an old Q45.

And you should see what happens to Toyota owners with motors that sludge up after 40k. And how owners feel when the dealer blames them for a crummy design. I've got a story about friends of mine who bought a minivan (Sienna I believe?), were blamed for the sludge flaw, and finally just dumped it on the dealer lot in the middle of the night in the middle of the customer entrance after beating the crap out of the body and windows, and writing a friendly message on the side for customers to see. (They could afford it and had no interest in being treated like suckers.)

Japanese cars arent the best or the worst. You have to put your biases aside (rightfully developed in the 80s, I might add) and look at the facts and read multiple surveys from multiple sources.

My Q45 needed a new transmission at 49,000 miles. Thats no better than a Taurus made in 1992. Fortunately that lesson was learned and Nissan dramaticaly improved transmission cooling. Do I declare then that all Japanese or all Nissan products are garbage? No. I stick to the facts. There's nothing wrong with brand loyalty, but remember that manufacturers can use your loyalty as a tool to get you to blindly buy their crap.

-Jesda

[Onizuka]

Japanese cars arent the best or the worst. You have to put your biases aside (rightfully developed in the 80s, I might add) and look at the facts and read multiple surveys from multiple sources.

I saw on a recent automotive show that the average BMW 7 series is in the shop for warrenty repairs 5 times as much as a average ford focus. But the ford focus is in the shop 7 times as much as comparable japanese offerings. Domestic and european car companies still have a LONG way to go to catch up to japanese long term quality.

I have only had to take my 13 year old 240sx to the shop ONCE for a problem I could have fixed myself, and I have owned it for over 2 years now. Working in an auto repair shop for a summer, I got to see the what volkswagon, ford, oldsmobile, peugeot (dear god...), BWM, mercedes and others concider to be "quality". We hardly ever had nissans, hondas or toyotas unless it was for emissions or if they were beat to hell.

[Bubba1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jesda "]Japanese cars arent the best or the worst. You have to put your biases aside (rightfully developed in the 80s, I might add) and look at the facts and read multiple surveys from multiple sources.

I disagree. Japanese cars are currently the best. Check out Consumer Reports which is unbiased. Japanese cars dominate the recommended categories. In fact all Toyota's models made their recommended list (except the short bed Tacoma, which was rollover prone in one specific test but the extended/crew cab versions were recommended. A few american models got recommended, but it's a fairly small number in comparison to the # of American models offered.

I have personally owned both American and Japanese vehicles ,and the only car problems I've had involved the American cars, not the japanese cars. Those are facts. I'm trying to come up with one bad Japanese model that's offered new in the US today. Can you name one? I have no trouble coming up with some bad american models.

[masticatingcow]

I have an uncle who worked for Ford on the Detroit axle line. He was a shift manager. When I asked him if I could get a hook up for a 'Stang (when I was 16) he said, "Never buy a Ford." I asked him why not and he told me that Ford doesn't give two s#its about quality (no surprise) but worse, American manufaturers, concerned with quality or not, suffer from a largely indifferent workforce that sees their involvement with the company as simply a business transtaction, nothing more. His point is that the industrial cultures in Germany and Japan tend towards better (higher quality) manufacturing.

As far as the 7-series being serviced 5 times more often than a Focus, which, in turn, is serviced 7 times more than a comparable Japanese offering... well, I would question the validity of such a study. The 7-series is far more complicated and no doubt requires a more comprehensive warranty than a Focus. Sure, the 7-series could easily be in the shop more often, but for what? Are they the same things as the Focus? Tail-lights? ECU Malfunction? Pure, unadultered crappy design? Probably not... the 7-series has peripheral systems, like voice-activated climate control, navigation, active suspension, etc that no doubt require maintenance. Dare I say, 7 times more stuff to go wrong? Maybe the study is valid enough to suggest that the Bimmer needs a lot of attention, but to use it as evidence that BMWs are of poorer design and/or less reliable than a car that it overtly outclasses in so many ways (i.e. Focus) seems unreasonable.

I am not surprised that an auto show would make such a fallacied argument... how much of what you see on TV is valid anyway?

[psychic_mechanic]

Why the hell do you try to put aftermarket headers on a rented Mustang anyway?

Put in some nitrous, at least it's easier to take back off and sell on ebay when you're done.

-Vinny

[masticatingcow]

In my family (a huge Irish-Italian family, BTW) we have cars from just about every manufacturer... European, American, Japanese... they're all there. And EVERYONE complains about their car...

Those who own European cars generally complain about the lack of available parts and subsequently inflated prices for said parts. My aunt paid 150 bucks to have a dealership replace a cracked tail light COVER. Not assembly, just the cover. One of my cousins got in a relatively minor accident that totalled his Bimmer because the costs of replacing the damaged body panels shadowed the Bluebook on the car.

Those who own Japanese cars complain about the little things that go wrong. My mom's Quest's tach is stuck on 1200 RPM, and the passenger side front window goes down slower than the driver's side. My 240 has rattling in the passenger door over bumpy roads and whistling from the windshield at high speeds.

Those who own American cars complain about replacing engine components, fixing the brakes all too often, the security system not working right, alignment being off, and finally (usually it's the last complaint) having to buy another one because the engine blew. My dad's Saturn has been plagued by electrical problems since he go it, and one of my aunts has been through two Explorers already.

For my money, I don't mind the little things that go wrong with Japanese cars. The cracking leather, different rattles, and quirky peripherals are little problems, and usually just annoyances. I would never trade them for a "quality" American ride that can malfunction enough to make it undriveable. The cost of European car parts effectively does the same... being so high priced that they are not practical, and therefore detract from European concepts of "quality" manufacturing.

[masticatingcow]

Why the hell do you try to put aftermarket headers on a rented Mustang anyway?

I think it was a lease.

So, basically, as soon as my lease is up I'm leaving domestics and never looking back.

Same question though... you'd only have to reinstall the stockers when the lease was up, right?

[psychic_mechanic]

I think it was a lease.

Same thing....:rolleyes

[Jesda]

My first car, a 1988 Nissan Sentra, kept running perfectly after three wrecks. That thing was rock solid.

This Q45 cost thousands this year to maintain/repair, got a new transmission at 50k (thankfully the first owner had that dilemma), and the engine's about ready to crap itself if I dont replace the crummy plastic chain guides (what were those morons thinking?). Otherwise, its a absolute joy to drive and I love it. If it was a Buick Regal with these niggling issues I'd have dumped it. Specific early 90s Toyota engines had similar timing chain guide problems.

I had a Mazda 929 that leaked oil like a fountain. The head gasket blew at 116k. The last 929 I owned before that threw a rod. And this is pre-Ford Mazda, 100% Japanese. The post-Ford 929 was quite reliable. But I credit that to natural design improvements.

I had a 93 Honda Accord I got from an Acura dealer that ate up brakes. Otherwise no problems. It drove nicely for a boring blend-me-into-traffic car.

I had a 1995 Mazda 626 that I sold with 250,000 miles. It had a minor oil leak and collapsed hydraulic lifters. Other than the lifter noise, it looked and ran like a spanking new car. The same 2.0L engine is used in other Ford (Probe) and Mazda (MX6) products and has a reputation for running beyond 300k with typical maintenance.

Toyota engines are prone to awful sludge problems. I dont really need to name a specific model because it affects the ENTIRE BRAND. But I'll name them anyway:Camry 4 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 7/01Camry 6 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 7/01Solara 4 cyl. Produced 6/98 - 5/01Solara 6 cyl. Produced 6/98 - 5/01Sienna 6 cyl. Produced 7/97 - 5/01Avalon 6 cyl. Produced 7/96 - 5/01Celica 4 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 4/99Highlander 6 cyl. Produced 11/00 - 7/01

BMW and Mercedes-Benz issues have been electrical, seldom mechanical. With the addition of ridiculously complex electronic wizardry, people have been locked without oxygen in their new 7s, and stranded by their S-classes.

A couple years ago, I saw a 2002 Q45 being towed. It was a sad sight, and terribly embarassing for the guy who owned it.

Chryslers have major transmission issues, alleviated very easily by using only Chrysler fluid and flushing every year. Fit and finish are crummy and little things constantly go wrong. The Chrysler 2.7 V6 has sludge issues almost identical to Toyota's.

I had a Ford Explorer that was all-around kind of crappy. Body and interior was perfect, ride was very good, but the oil pump was ready to fail and caused a horrible lifter clatter. Sounded like someone was beating on the engine with hammers.

Dad had a Chevy Astro as a company vehicle. It was awful. His company cars from Chrysler (Caravans) have been very good to him. The Chevy Celebrity wagon that Xerox gave him as a company vehicle in 1988 was also very good. Flawless even. He kind of missed it, wanted to buy it, but ended up selling it to some friends who needed it and took it to Alaska and still to this DAY use it as their primary transportation. The locks are broken, its covered in rust and smells like fish, but the damn thing refuses to die. Its like a bad dream where you cant wake up.

My Mercedes 300E was a bore to drive and ate tires, and the E320 that my parents eventually sold to friends has bizarre drivetrain and off-the-line acceleration problems at 100k (they sold it at 50k). Not bad overall. The people they sold it to previously owned a 300D with 300,000 miles that was flawless (mechanically).

I dont think anyone cares about Jaguar. It barely exists.

So in closing, trust the facts on EACH MODEL and EACH ENGINE. Check your brand a nationality biases at the door if you dont want to get screwed. (And getting screwed means buying junk, overpaying for quality, or missing out on low-cost quality).

We're passionate about our cars but come on, when youre blowing thousands of dollars and a quarter of your income on payments and insurance and maintenance, you have to keep an open mind (or else be prepared with an open wallet).

-Jesda

[Onizuka]

As far as the 7-series being serviced 5 times more often than a Focus, which, in turn, is serviced 7 times more than a comparable Japanese offering... well, I would question the validity of such a study. The 7-series is far more complicated and no doubt requires a more comprehensive warranty than a Focus. Sure, the 7-series could easily be in the shop more often, but for what? Are they the same things as the Focus? Tail-lights? ECU Malfunction? Pure, unadultered crappy design? Probably not... the 7-series has peripheral systems, like voice-activated climate control, navigation, active suspension, etc that no doubt require maintenance. Dare I say, 7 times more stuff to go wrong? Maybe the study is valid enough to suggest that the Bimmer needs a lot of attention, but to use it as evidence that BMWs are of poorer design and/or less reliable than a car that it overtly outclasses in so many ways (i.e. Focus) seems unreasonable.

Thats the comparison the show used, not me. I forget what its called but it was on speed channel, and it was about big manufacturer car shows. Problems are problems, weather it be mechanicle or electrical. I would much rather replace broken rocker arms on my SR than a wire harness from a 94 jetta. The more a car is in for service, the more money out of your pocket and the less time you're in the car, that means a lot to some people.

Dont get me wrong, european luxury brands are superior in a decent amount of aspects, just not as good a valve as alternatives you can get from japanese manufacturers in my opinion.

[masticatingcow]

Dont get me wrong, european luxury brands are superior in a decent amount of aspects, just not as good a valve as alternatives you can get from japanese manufacturers in my opinion.

I absolutely agree... what I was pointing out was that such a comparison is logically flawed. I'm not suggesting that what you said about Japanese quality was wrong. By no means; I think you and I are in good company on that aspect!

What I am questioning is the way these ideas are communicated from the media. You got this information from a TV show, and no doubt, you weren't the only one watching. While you may have the benefit of knowing that the program was airing information built on a bent logic, others may not have known that. That's all.

And you're right, problems are problems, electrical or mechanical... but the person who can afford the 745il (for instance) can afford to have more expensive repairs and maintenance done than the person who pulls the cash together for a Focus. The cars and their respective owners, in most cases, are completely different. People who buy 745il's, I think, are not like people who buy Focuses (Foci?) and Spec-Vs.

I think we need to define what a "reliable" car is. Does it talk to you and guide you through Manhattan at 2 o'clock AM? Does it grind you rich Columbian coffee while you tank up? Does it wipe your a$$ when there is no toilet paper in a public bathroom? I mean, really. People don't buy 7-series Bimmers for greater fundamental functionality. They buy it to flaunt it. It's a status symbol. (In my best movie-preview voice: ) "The Ultimate Driving Machine"... cough cough. Right. How about "The Ultimate Living Room That Doubles As A Driving Machine"? There's more to Bimmer than the car.

At any rate, I'm not arguing with your statement. I'm just of the mind that we shouldn't be comparing entry-level Ford POS's to top-end BMW flagship models. It does nothing to relate the crappiness of Ford's Focus, or even to elevate the Japanese competitors. All this comparison does is artifically degrade BMW's cars.

[Bubba1]

Well, Consumer Reports has no problem comparing all price range vehicles for reliability using the same measurement, so I kinda disagree with you. You CAN easily compare a entry level Focus to a flagship 7- Series for reliability.You kinda lost me with defining "reliable". Reliability is simply the tendency to require repair outside of normal scheduled maintenance. What a person does with their car, how wealthy they are, how expensive the car is, what options it has, how complex it is, or how expensive those costs are irrelevant. It's simply the tendency to have problems. That can applied to any car. Although one would think complex cars are less reliable, but that not true. The Lexus LS430 is far more complex vehicle than a base model focus, yet the Lexus is far more reliable. So I don't think comparing reliability is unfair to BMW or Benz. It simply shows that their cars not as reliable. That's not degrading, that's truth. Hopefully BMW and Daimler-Benz will feel embarrassed enough to improve their reliability as their cars should be more reliable given their prices. But I suspect there will be no sense of urgency on their part to address it until their slump.

Car buying is such an individual process. If reliability were the solepurchasing criteria for all, no one would buy a new cadillac, Benzor Land Rover because all 3 have below average reliability. But people buy thousands of 'em because reliability is not the sole decision criteria to a typical Caddy/Benz/Land Rover buyer.