Fords Suck

A General Discussion forum for cars and other topics, and a great place to introduce yourself if you are new to NICO!
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masticatingcow
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Bubba1--

I see your point. You're saying that reliability is the tendancy that things will not go wrong in a car outside of scheduled maintenance. Agreed. I was trying to illustrate, however, that we might be able to define reliability as the infrequency of events that prevent a car from achieving it's design purpose. If we look at that definition, then we must look at what these cars have been on the lift for. Engine peripherals or navigation glitches? Drivetrain or voice-activated climate control? Are navigation and climate control essential to a car's performace? Not in general, but on the flip-side, as I think you were getting at, both are essential to the BMW. That's what I meant by "The Ultimate Living Room That Doubles As A Driving Machine. There's more to Bimmer than the car." All in all, agreed. :)

But I think that since "car buying is such an individual process," as you correctly assert, one cannot compare cars that command entirely different buyer demographics. Why? Because reliability is so subjective among different groups. For example, someone who buys a Focus may not care if one light is out. I know because I see lots of Focuses with one little thing wrong. Is this acceptable to a BMW owner? Not likely... it will have to get fixed. Also, a Focus driver is less likely to worry if the engine idles a little funny... while a BMW owner will have it on the lift in a heartbeat. I'm making admittedly gross generalizations here, but I'm making a point. It is entirely plausible that BMWs are on the lift 5 times more Focuses because their owners demand top-notch performance... and perhaps unrealistically? Give a 740 to a Ford driver and you'll see how little that thing gets worked on. "Nav not working? Fine, I know my way. Voice-control over cabin systems not responding? Fine, I'll reach over and turn on the A/C myself." Different buyers, different expetations of reliability.

But you're right about the Lexus. That's a testament to superior Japanese manufacturing. There's really no way to look at it. EDIT: No other way to look at it.

So.... why wasn't it included? My final question about that information from the show: why do you think they didn't compare the 745iL to a Lincoln Towncar, and then perhaps specify a Japanese counterpart, like the Lexus LS430? This certainly would be a better match up, and easily more comparable. Why didn't they do that? Because it would SHAME the American product. The Lincoln wouldn't have a glimmer of reliability next to either competitor. Solution? Make the argument that American econo cars are better than European luxury cars and do not specify whether the Japanese offering was econo- or luxury-designed. They essentially dodge a bullet that way. That's a little problematic, don't you think?

I'm only asking that when we see stuff like that, that we question why the study was performed that way. The fact is you can make statistics say whatever you want, i.e. 20% of college students are binge drinkers. You'll think, "Wow! All those college kids are party animals!" but you're wrong because you aren't SEEING that 80% of college students are not binge drinkers. Any marketing exec or researcher will tell you that you can use supposedly infalliable facts to support whatever the hell you want. Some of you will say, "That's like the Bible." And I'll reply, "Yeah, it's like everything. That's why laws of logic exist. BS is too easily disguised as truth and hearsay is too often seen as common knowledge."

I blame college. If I didn't have this education, I could live with myself after answering "Fuk yea, Ni$$an ownz j00. w00t!" Sorry for the inconvenience. :)


Onizuka
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89 Nissan S14 hatch SR20DE

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This is a great discussion!

The show seemed very pro-american product, which is probably why they didn't have a japanese car in the room with the 7 series and focus. Im pretty much agreeing with everything said.

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Jesda
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In all fairness to Ford, the Focus began as a reliability nightmare and Ford quickly responded to and fixed the problems that came up.

The result? A reliable econobox.

Im not intricately familiar with the 7-series, but there have been comments from engineers and dealers about how the software released was barely tested, and theyre still scrambling to fix a lot of the flaws. Getting locked in your car without air isnt a reliability problem - its an awful, glaring flaw.

And MB's electrical issues come from using separate control modules for everything, while its Chrysler counterpart uses centralized electronics and computers. This makes troubleshooting extremely simple and reduces production and parts costs.

BMW and MB should hire a Japanese firm to design their electronics and write their software. They might learn a lesson in logic and simplicity.

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Tino
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psh haw! I'd rather push a ford than drive a chevy!

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Cold_Zero
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Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:15 pm
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You will be doing that anyways. J/K. I loved my Ford Contour, until I bought my Nissan.

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Tino
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actually I got a chevy lol, but I got nuthn against Ford, They are a great challenge!

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Bubba1
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jesda "]In all fairness to Ford, the Focus began as a reliability nightmare and Ford quickly responded to and fixed the problems that came up.

The result? A reliable econobox.

I wouldn't pat Ford on the back for their quick response. They had no choice as the recalls were government ordered. But Ford appears to have finally fixed most of the Foci problems as CR recommend the 2003 models. As far as reliability, I'm not sure you can use the words "reliable econobox"when your car gets recalled 11 times in 2 years. I think "pathetic" is a better word.


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