For the Toyota Fanboys

[Knightro2]

They aren't perfect just like every other car company out there.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28891251/

[Red Devil]

And yet it's still not as bad as the 3 million Ford recalled.

[TrustME]

Is there that many Toyota fans in the Versa forums (I've been away for a long time, again).

[Knightro2]

Hey! How's good ol' Pcola? That's my hometown.

Yes...there have been some Toyota fans in here saying to dump the V and get a Toyota. I've never really liked them except for the 4Runner.

[BBISHOPPCM]

Lets not forget the tumulus 80's... remember the Nissan Van? How about the Nissan Pulsar Turbo? Never heard of or seen either one? it's because EVERY SINGLE UNIT was crushed! Nissan ordered the recall of each and every one due to severe design flaws, causing engine failures and fires. Yikes!!

[TrustME]

Hey! How's good ol' Pcola? That's my hometown.

Yes...there have been some Toyota fans in here saying to dump the V and get a Toyota. I've never really liked them except for the 4Runner.

If I say bad things about this place, will you be offended? Lol.

Hmm, thats a shame about the recall though. Its sucks to see a mishap like that, no matter who the company.

[Knightro2]

LOL, nah. It's certainly different once you move away. Hell, I grew up on the west side...went to Escambia High..not the nicest part of Pcola but my neighborhood was nice. It was right behind the Navy hospital surrounded by lower income housing. It was like a little oasis. lol.

[TrustME]

LOL. I graduated in 07 from there. Not a fun place. They messed me up there creditwise. Thats another story. Its always fun to meet people that lived or live where you are.

lol

/off-topic.

[Rockhound]

I find the anti-Toyota sentiment pretty funny. They're a pretty unassuming company, but it must be the fact that, aside from Scion, they don't really connect with the young'ens these days. And even Scions aren't selling solely to young folks.

I used to be all pro-Nissan and liked to hate on the usual suspects (Honda, Toyota) but I guess I've mellowed out. Revelling in Toyota's recalls is pretty petty stuff though, considering that their overall reliability track record remains stellar. Kind of like Honda's famous 5-speed auto transmission failures - famous, yes, but still a small enough percentage to not really register.

I'm a Nissan guy through and through, but they still don't have the model-to-model reliability of Honda, Toyota, and potentially even Hyundai (I know this one will get the blood boiling). I'm not saying that these manufacturers are perfect (non are) and they all have their issues time to time. Where Nissan tends to get my attention is that they seem to be, overall, more concerned with sporty driving dynamics across their model line.

You will find me being much more critical of the Detroit 2.8, however, since they need taxpayer money to continue their disfunctional business models. Well, perhaps that's unfair, as it would appear that Ford may get by without bailout money...

[Shad0wXCalibur]

Once I get money under control and save back up, I'm eventually going to get a Yaris... that was my decision after thinking a lot about what car I'd get next. Why? It's a simple small fuel efficient car. I'm the only one who drives my car 90% of the time so I don't need a huge backseat. I'll sacrifice that big backseat and less storage space for a short easy to park car that gets superb gas mileage.

And I don't wanna hear anything about how the Versa is still better from NISSAN fanboys so shut it. And IMO, the Yaris is it's own class of small car. The Versa is big enough to be compared to the Corolla. The Versa is also a good car. It's just more car than I need so I won't be getting another one. Not sure why I got a Versa in the first place. Somehow I thought I needed a big car and that the Yaris would be too slow having a 1.5 liter not realizing those cars only weigh 2300 pounds

[VersaMG08]

Why not test drive the Scion xD, Sentra or Mazda 3? Personally, I like those better than the Yaris. The Yaris is just, bleh, no character at all. Toyota needs to work on their creativity when it comes to design and style. I won't mock on their engines though, they're technologically great and has good MPG.

[Shad0wXCalibur]

Well the other reason for a Yaris was it's price. It'd be cheap to buy and cheap to operate. I'd love to get over 40 mpg highway and over 30 city. And I will agree it's not much of a car to look at but that's fine with me. I'm buying the car for me, not for everyone else. And yes, like you said, even the engine itself is pretty neat and seems reliable. I've read that it uses a timing chain being a smaller engine that last about twice as long as timing belts.

[zratedversa1]

toyota is way overrated if you ask me

[VersaMG08]

Dude, you ought to test drive the Scion xD before you make a final decision with the Yaris and let me know how that turns out. The aftermarket support is outstanding!

[Bubs daddy]

That Yaris is way too small for me. Looks like a toy. Hey, it is. A Toy-ota.

[TrustME]

[QUOTE=Bubs daddy]That Yaris is way too small for me. Looks like a toy. Hey, it is. A Toy-ota.

[/QUOTE

Hehe, I see what you did there.

[They Call Me Whatshisname]

*horrible disgraceful post to judge the reaction of my new signature*

[Shad0wXCalibur]

Dude, you ought to test drive the Scion xD before you make a final decision with the Yaris and let me know how that turns out. The aftermarket support is outstanding!

Heh. The Yaris has almost twice as much stuff for it as the Versa... but I'm not getting a car to mod it. Not everyone on this forum mods their cars. I'll even go as far as to leave it on steel wheels with factory hubcaps. I just want something to drive, not show off. Cheap and great gas mileage is all I need.

That Yaris is way too small for me. Looks like a toy. Hey, it is. A Toy-ota.

It's not cramped at all in the front. It's like any other car driving it but yes, rear passengers will suffer and you wouldn't be able to fit 5 enormous mud tires inside of it

[matt_a]

I own a 2005 Scion xA (Toyota) and a 2007 Nissan Versa SL. I used to drive bigger, more expensive vehicles but I started to realize what a waste of money it is. I have owned Toyotas and Nissans in the past and neither company has dissapointed me.

My Scion xA has really impressed me. It's been 100% problem free and there are no sqeaks or rattles anywhere. What makes that so impressive is that we aren't talking about a $27K Camry. This car cost me $12,995 brand new and it's a little economy car. Yet the quality is still there. That's why I get so tired of reading forums where as soon as someone complains about a problem with their car, the responses are always, "You only paid $16K for it...what do you expect?". I don't expect a less expensive car to be loaded with luxury features or have a ton of sound insulation, but I do expect good quality control....at any price.

We absolutely love our Versa too. It has not been as trouble-free as the Scion, but it is still a great car. There haven't been any major issues..only pesky stuff. I don't think we could find another car that has such great room, comfort, and "goodies" as the Versa SL in the same price range.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I find the anti-Toyota sentiment pretty funny. They're a pretty unassuming company, but it must be the fact that, aside from Scion, they don't really connect with the young'ens these days.

I'm not really a young'en (never was, really, as far as my automobile tastes go) but I have some decent reasons (in my view, at least) for my passionate dislike for Toyota.

The primary reason I hate the company so much is that they are a purely mediocre company that has managed to convince people through their highly successful marketing that they are the best of the best.Toyota was once a respectable company that made an a superior product. But those days are now long gone, and rather than continuing to make a good product, they've traded in their quality for volume. More, lower-quality cars. They're not particularly bad, but they're not what they used to be. The problem is the company is still living on that reputation from years ago. Strategic marketing has helped keep people believing that the Toyota of today is the Toyota of 1995. They are not. I dislike the idea that many people buy Toyotas expecting a yesteryear-quality car when they're really getting the new volume alternative. This is worsened by the fact that these new cheaper-to-make, lower-quality Toyota still sell at the same unacceptable brand-cache markup that the car's bore when they were actually something special. So you're paying a premium for a superior car but getting an average car. I know it's the buyer's responsibility to be informed about buying decisions, but it's just not a tactic that sits well with me.

My other big beef with Toyota comes from my enthusiast side. Some of my very favorite cars WERE once made by Toyota. But it was by that older Toyota that has died. The new Toyota has no soul. It's sad to see a company that built greats like the Supra and the MR2 turn into the volume seller it has become today. Toyota's modern attempts at sporty cars are nothing more than their same washed-up blandmobiles with more power. There's no soul to any product the company makes. They couldn't build an enthusiast car with real soul if they tried. They've sacrificed their soul for volume sales.

What scares me is Nissan is headed along the same path Toyota took to get where they are today. All their interesting products are being killed or neutered as boring volume-sellers are being stacked into the lineup.Nissan today is not the same company that built my Maxima or my Q. Yes, they're more profitable. But like Toyota they seem to have traded their soul for their success.

[matt_a]

Toyota was once a respectable company that made an a superior product. But those days are now long gone, and rather than continuing to make a good product, they've traded in their quality for volume. More, lower-quality cars.

What are you basing that statement on? Seeing as how Toyota is consistantly at or near the top of every (reputable) quality suvey, it seems to me that this must be more of a personal opinion than fact. The surveys and actual owner testimonials disagree with you.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Even Toyota-worshipping Consumer Reports agrees that the Camry, for example, is no longer as stalwartly reliable as it used to be.

Numbered lists don't tell the whole story as far as reliability. The playing field is more level. Toyota still might be toward the top, but they're not as outstanding as they were. And the rest of the pack is closer behind than before, too.

[matt_a]

I see. So you're saying that Toyota is no longer the undisputed king of reliability and quality. That's probably true. Others have indeed been catching up. I just wanted to clarify because your first statement seem to imply that Toyota is no longer making a quality car at all and they are now substandard....which is clearly not the case.

[TrustME]

What scares me is Nissan is headed along the same path Toyota took to get where they are today. All their interesting products are being killed or neutered as boring volume-sellers are being stacked into the lineup.

Examples? I don't really feel that way, personally. I like a good majority of Nissan's new lineup. Would you be referring to the new Maxima or the 370Z? Hopefully you are wrong and this trend really is not happening. It would be a shame to see a car company that my family and I have driven for many years being spiraling downwards like you say.

[VersaMG08]

If that were the case, I'll just jump onto the Mazda or Mitsubishi bandwagon.

[Rockhound]

Minister, you make some compelling points. When I first sat in the current-gen Camry, I was shocked at the (lack of) quality. At the time, my wife drove an '01 Camry, and although thoroughly bland, it was refined and the interior was made with quality materials - but things had changed, for the worse.

And you're right, they've completely abandoned the performance market. The last Celica stunk. The last MR2 was flawed. The Toyota that made the Supra no longer exists. The Camry SE is not a proper sports sedan.

But can you blame them? They have, for the most part, cut out the vehicles that don't sell, and targeted the middle of the road. It's not exciting to enthusiasts, but they'll likely be around in a few years, which is more than ChryCo and GM can say at this point.

They obviously don't need enthusiasts to survive, but that just means that folks like you and I probably won't be seen at a Toyota dealership any time soon...which will keep more interesting automakers like Nissan going.

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As for the Yaris, I think it's more smart than the ForTwo. My buddy bought the 2-door hatch with the 5-speed and it's a surprisingly peppy little car. The back seat has more legroom than most people would think, and he gets 35 in town without hypermiling. It's basic transport without feeling cheap. If they made a 4-door hatch, then it probably would have been on our shopping list.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Yes, you're right: they've simply narrowed their lineup to the real big sellers. There's nothing wrong with that from a business standpoint. It's just sad, especially with cars like the Supra in their past.

Examples? I don't really feel that way, personally. I like a good majority of Nissan's new lineup. Would you be referring to the new Maxima or the 370Z?

Yes and no. I was very pleasantly surprised to find that I really like the new Z.

The Maxima, though, is no longer a Maxima. It is a Buick. It has been since 2007. In 2007, The car's sportiness began to disappear. The car had a manual and automatic transmission option since the name has existed (1970s). In 2007 the manual transmission option went away. For 2009, the car got SMALLER (which is a HUGE issue as the Maxima had already become largely indistinguishable from the Altima for most buyers). The Manual transmission made no comeback. And the powerplant stayed the same as the Altima rather than getting more interesting. The third-generation Maxima was ahead of the curve, beyond what was "required" of a midsize sedan, and a very unique car. The 2009 Maxima is a buick or Avalon in a muscular body. And it lacks the REAL muscle to back up it's looks.Carlos Ghosn comes from the world of European cars where the boring, inoffensive, and small rule. It's wonderful for sales and fuel economy. And it is terrible for anyone wanting something special. During Ghosn's first years at Nissan, I had enormous respect for the man. Today, I wish he'd go away. He saved the company from bankruptcy. Now he's saving it from being unique.

I see. So you're saying that Toyota is no longer the undisputed king of reliability and quality. That's probably true. Others have indeed been catching up. I just wanted to clarify because your first statement seem to imply that Toyota is no longer making a quality car at all and they are now substandard....which is clearly not the case.

Exactly. I'm just saying that Toyota is no longer absolutely superior. In 1995, The Camry would have been more attractive, more reliable, more fun, smoother, and classier than, say, the Corisca.Today, Chevy's V6 AND 4cylinder are superior (smoother, torquier, more reliable). The Chevy looks better. It's just as reliable. It's a lot more fun, can be had with interior appointments that are just as nice...They've lost their edge on the market.

[VersaMG08]

Which is the same reason if Nissan goes the way of Honda and Toyota, then I'm going to jump ship over to Mazda or Mitsubishi. I like their product lineup they have and style, I just wish their quality (Mitsubishi) was a little better.

[TrustME]

Yes and no. I was very pleasantly surprised to find that I really like the new Z.

The Maxima, though, is no longer a Maxima. It is a Buick. It has been since 2007. In 2007, The car's sportiness began to disappear. The car had a manual and automatic transmission option since the name has existed (1970s). In 2007 the manual transmission option went away. For 2009, the car got SMALLER (which is a HUGE issue as the Maxima had already become largely indistinguishable from the Altima for most buyers). The Manual transmission made no comeback. And the powerplant stayed the same as the Altima rather than getting more interesting. The third-generation Maxima was ahead of the curve, beyond what was "required" of a midsize sedan, and a very unique car. The 2009 Maxima is a buick or Avalon in a muscular body. And it lacks the REAL muscle to back up it's looks.Carlos Ghosn comes from the world of European cars where the boring, inoffensive, and small rule. It's wonderful for sales and fuel economy. And it is terrible for anyone wanting something special. During Ghosn's first years at Nissan, I had enormous respect for the man. Today, I wish he'd go away. He saved the company from bankruptcy. Now he's saving it from being unique.

Hmm, I understand what you're saying now. I had no idea the took away the standard option for the Maxima. Thats disappointing. Thanks for filling me in.

[Rockhound]

Yes, you're right: they've simply narrowed their lineup to the real big sellers. There's nothing wrong with that from a business standpoint. It's just sad, especially with cars like the Supra in their past.

Well, with the new car market facing ever-declining sales numbers, I'd say that any company that wants to weather the storm should probably look into a similar strategy, however sad it may be to enthusiasts.

Now's not the time to market a niche performance car - especially if your core lineup is failing. Similar to the Solstice/Sky launch a couple years ago. GM has been bleeding cash for quite a while now, and a low-volume roadster would obviously not fix their balance sheet. A proper subcompact, compact, and midsize were the order of the day - and all they managed was the new Malibu, too little, too late. But I digress.

Toyota did have plans to develop a RWD coupe with Subaru, expected sometime around 2010-11, but of course, in light of the downturn, it's been shelved for now. Some sweet concept renderings are out there for anyone interested.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your stance, but if Nissan needs to go conservative (save for the beautiful 370Z) for a couple years to stay afloat, then I'd rather them do that then go under with an 'interesting' lineup.

Today, Chevy's V6 AND 4cylinder are superior (smoother, torquier, more reliable). The Chevy looks better. It's just as reliable. It's a lot more fun, can be had with interior appointments that are just as nice...They've lost their edge on the market

EcoTec I4s are anything but smooth. Just a few years back they still felt purpose-built for agriculture use. NVH is still a nagging issue with GM I4s, and even the CTS's 3.6L V6 has had many NVH complaints (acknowledged by GM).

I do think the new Malibu is a fine looking sedan, but unfortunately, it's just too little, too late. Toyota shored up the auto-transmission issues with the current-gen Camry within the first year, and now sites like TrueDelta report it having very good reliability. The Saturn Aura, which is mechanically related to the Malibu, has not fared as well on the same site.

Other than that, you're comparing the Aveo (a South Korean revolution) to the Yaris (no contest for the Yaris) and the Cavali...I mean Cobalt with the Corolla. Unless you want the ghetto blaster Cobalt SS for sheer thrust, the Corolla is a more refined (yes, boring) vehicle with less Wal-Mart stigma inside and out.

Last time I checked, GM has continued to lose their edge on the market - in fact, it's been a pretty continual downhill slide for the past few decades, due in no small part to piss-poor management, shoddy reliability in key market segments (trucks alone do not a car company make), and did I mention piss-poor management?

Not that Toyota has been on an ever-steady quality-climb, as I agree wholeheartedly with you that their mid-90s lineup probably had more 'quality' for the buck than today's. Toyota could care less about GM though, Hyundai probably appears to be much more threatening on a different scale - some of Hyundai's offerings have the appearance of being "mid-90s" Toyota quality for even less coin.

By the way, I'm not really trying to debate here, I just love talking cars, Nissans or otherwise.