FOCA - Yay or nay?

[C-Kwik]

I vote for mandatory birth control until you are 30

I'm with you on that one. But can we implement it about the time I entered high school and then send me back in time? I have a feeling this would be a LOT more fun.

Obviously, since you've already been born.

Weak argument. Much of the argument from the pro-lifers stems from a moral issue (perhaps religious as well). That is, that the fetus is a life. I don't subscribe to such a belief. And until someone can prove that it is a life and essentially has a soul or spirit (whatever), then I can't be swayed. So as far as I'm concerned, abortion has little difference than using the pill to prevent a pregnancy.

That said, it would be clear that there are essentially 2 very different views on that. But being a liberal, I do not sit here and tell pro-lifers that they should abort their children. Whatever their reason for deciding not to abort is their own choice. Just as it is a person's choice to abort a pregnancy. Hell, I support your right to assert that you believe abortion is wrong. But I also support people's right to assert otherwise.

Again you all miss the larger picture here........seperation of powers..federal laws donot superceed state laws...untill this bill..there might be federal mandates to get funds..but a state has the rite by its voter population to write and change laws to suit the population in large...by the federal lvl mandating all doctors to follow there law regardless of the states choice..is against what the founding fathers intended..this is a dictatorship tactic.....the ramifications of this bill scare me..if the federal level can pull this one off..what else can they make the population do?..think on that a while..

As I stated in my first post, the wikipedia article on this implies it depends on interpretation. Particularly about being able to force doctors into performing abortions. I have mixed feelings about it, but ultimately, if it came down to it, I would prefer they take out any portion that could be used to interpret the law to force doctors to have to perform the procedure and keep status quo as far as facilities are concerned. But I doubt that alone would be the only point of disagreement.

and late term abortion is merder!

How so. And how is it different than aborting in an earlier term? I pose this both as an argument and out of curiosity as I'd like to better understand those that think along these lines...

[dusred]

until someone can prove that it is a life and essentially has a soul or spirit (whatever), then I can't be swayed.

How about this, how about you prove to me that that little thing inside her that has a heart the same as yours that beats the same as yours and essentially was you at one point or another is not alive?

[marlin29311]

How about this, how about you prove to me that that little thing inside her that has a heart the same as yours that beats the same as yours and essentially was you at one point or another is not alive?

Fetal heartbeats can start around 5 weeks - does that make the fetus a person at 5 weeks then? (I'm just playing devil's advocate here from your very loose arguement - I'm pro-life myself).

[liquid_cool]

Have ya ever seen a doctor pull a baby out of the vaginal area only to colapse the head killing the baby..thats a late term abortion.done in the 3rd trimester..absolutly discusting and if ya saw one performed..it would change your mind about this subject forever...i do beleive that is merder..period...as for all abortions ..i feel it is a form of merder if used as a contraceptive due to a "Mistake" and lack of "Responcibility" in ither partys...as for rape and what not..that is another can of worms in it self...we have made [ Life ] it's self a matter of convienence now just like a cup of coffie at your 7/11...easy to deal with and no responcibility in making it....abotion is a cop-out for the lack of contriceptive responcibility plain and simple..and a lack of morality.

[480sx]

said i wouldnt.

[dusred]

Fetal heartbeats can start around 5 weeks - does that make the fetus a person at 5 weeks then? (I'm just playing devil's advocate here from your very loose arguement - I'm pro-life myself).

Well, if you loose your pulse that means your dead right? To me when one does have a pulse/heartbeat it means they are alive.

merder

It's "murder", and yes, sucking a babies brains out (late term abortion) is just disgusting and wrong.

[marlin29311]

Well, if you loose your pulse that means your dead right? To me when one does have a pulse/heartbeat it means they are alive.

So then you believe that life begins at 5 weeks and that abortion would be permissible prior to that point?

[dusred]

I'm going to say no because there is the what if factor there. . . but I do see your point.

[breadbox]

Abortions legal fine! Don't make people preform them.

All the have to say is fine you are okay to do it, then someone opens a clinic and viola there you have a place specifically for the deed.

Why does the government want to control everything for us, aren't we grown up enough to take care of our own biz?

[OriginalWheelman]

Well my opinion, from a scientific standpoint, is that life starts at conception. The DNA for the new creature is formed in the original cell. Once those cells merge and write a new set of blueprints, they divide. A new organism is growing, inside one of the donors. I personally believe abortion should not be legal for this reason. In my opinion a life is created when the DNA is created, so by the time one would know of a pregnancy, a new life has already begun. I advocate sexual responsibility. The involved parties may not have wanted or intended for a new organism to be created, but it was. If they do not want the chance there are several ways to reduce / eliminate it.

[Jacko3]

Well my opinion, from a scientific standpoint, is that life starts at conception. The DNA for the new creature is formed in the original cell. Once those cells merge and write a new set of blueprints, they divide. A new organism is growing, inside one of the donors. I personally believe abortion should not be legal for this reason. In my opinion a life is created when the DNA is created, so by the time one would know of a pregnancy, a new life has already begun. I advocate sexual responsibility. The involved parties may not have wanted or intended for a new organism to be created, but it was. If they do not want the chance there are several ways to reduce / eliminate it.

Very well said! You said, "In my opinion a life is created when the DNA is created,....." Excellent thoughts.

For example, if a person holds a piece of paper on one hand and then lighter on the other hand, all things being equal---ceteris paribus, one can safely assume and conclude, that fire has been created even before the lighter lights the paper into a ball of fire. Ont he other hand, some might argue that the process of the lighter meeting the paper must occur first, and that the first sparks exist, before we can safely conclude that a ball of fire has been created.

So, in effect, the argument hinges on the process of life or creation of a spark of fire as the example above illustrates. At best, humans can only approximate when life begins or when fire is created, if we take into account the process of those activities. The level of exactness of that process, is what makes the argument of pro-life or pro-choice, unproductive, and mundane at best. What do you think?

[C-Kwik]

How about this, how about you prove to me that that little thing inside her that has a heart the same as yours that beats the same as yours and essentially was you at one point or another is not alive?

Have ya ever seen a doctor pull a baby out of the vaginal area only to colapse the head killing the baby..thats a late term abortion.done in the 3rd trimester..absolutly discusting and if ya saw one performed..it would change your mind about this subject forever...i do beleive that is merder..period...as for all abortions ..i feel it is a form of merder if used as a contraceptive due to a "Mistake" and lack of "Responcibility" in ither partys...as for rape and what not..that is another can of worms in it self...we have made [ Life ] it's self a matter of convienence now just like a cup of coffie at your 7/11...easy to deal with and no responcibility in making it....abotion is a cop-out for the lack of contriceptive responcibility plain and simple..and a lack of morality.

Well my opinion, from a scientific standpoint, is that life starts at conception. The DNA for the new creature is formed in the original cell. Once those cells merge and write a new set of blueprints, they divide. A new organism is growing, inside one of the donors. I personally believe abortion should not be legal for this reason. In my opinion a life is created when the DNA is created, so by the time one would know of a pregnancy, a new life has already begun. I advocate sexual responsibility. The involved parties may not have wanted or intended for a new organism to be created, but it was. If they do not want the chance there are several ways to reduce / eliminate it.

The issue I'm pointing out here is that there are a muriad of opinions. And anyone can create a reasonable argument for any of them. But none are provable over the others. That said a freedom of choice also includes the right to choose what belief a person subscribes to. That is, if one believes that life occurs at conception and choose not to abort a pregnancy as a result, then that is their right. And if someone believes that life begins at birth, then that is their right. Until someone can undeniably quantify it, I won't place such restrictions on anyone else's liberties to decide what they think is right.

Liquid: I agree that late term abortions are probably disgusting, but that doesn't prove when life actually begins (in order to define murder).

[Cold_Zero]

Getting back to the focus of Marlin's original post, I think this piece of legislation will meet the same fate as its predecessors did with subsequent Congresses. Personally, I do think women and to an extent men have the fundamental right to choose to bear a child and they also have the fundamental right to choose not to bear a child. But, I do not believe that woman have the fundamental right to terminate pregnancies, especially in today’s day and age where the fetus is granted no rights, no legal representation or judicial overview. I guess it kind of irks me that while we decry the detainments in Gitmo and capital punishment executions, we totally over look a segment of the population that has no rights or respect of life. I mean death row inmates have typically taken the rights of someone away and had a good portion of their rights taken away from the State. They have also been afforded a trial, been convicted of a heinous crime, had years of appeals before the Governor of the state or a judicial review board can allow the State to execute the inmate. A fetus, who has done nothing more than inconvenienced a woman gets zero overview, from our society. I know the song remains the same with this debate. We all can talk/argue of the rationale for keeping abortion legal. And when the majority of (and I will admit) good reasons (rape, incest, to protect a mothers or child’s life) to keep abortion legal only accounts for a fraction of stated reason why women seek abortions, one can’t help but scratch their head and wonder why this is almost exclusively used as a defense. The majority of abortions performed in the United States are done so out of convenience for the mother. So then after the whole rationale issue hasn’t been solved, the debate takes on an obscure twist about a woman’s right to choose. As if we are making a benign choice about what toothpaste to use, or how to style our hair. There are plenty of activities that I am prohibited by the Federal and State governments from engaging in because it is dangerous to my health, my body or society. And almost always in this country, my right to engage in activities (that may infringe on the rights and sanctity of life) is superseded by the rights of others. So then the argument which hasn’t been resolved to this point moves towards a semantics game. We become concerned with divining the real definition of what life ‘is’, and the terminology that has been created is just an attempt by certain groups with agenda to desensitize the populous from feeling any empathy towards a growing fetus/baby in the womb. While I am not a Papist, I did agree with some of Pope John Paul II’s late encyclical that spoke of the Culture of Death, in which abortion was one of the factors mention. When you look at the rise of feminism and the debate over women’s reproductive health in this country you see that it is very closely linked with the rise of Eugenics. Being very familiar with the role that eugenics played in National Socialist Germany during the 1930’s - 1940’s, I cant help but to mortified that the consequences and the result of devaluing the worth certain groups and desensitizing ourselves to their plight will ultimately lead. I know that I will be beaten up for holding these views and dismissed as a fundie (which I am not) because I hold a certain religious and moral view on the issue. What do you do?

[wawazat8402]

I will expand on my previous point since I did some thinking about the topic at work last night.

I still think this is a hugely religious debate since the pro-life argument is largely backed by religious doctrine. This makes it very tricky since I dont believe in putting down another persons faith as long as it doesnt harm those around them.

I feel 3rd trimester abortions are wrong. There is plenty of time in the first 6 months to determine any complications that may arise. Also, Most 3rd trimester babies could be removed and put on life support with few to no longterm effects. This happens alot when an expecting mother is a victim of murder or a car wreck.

In regards to abortions during the first and second trimesters, I dont think anyone should be able to force their beliefs on another person. The burden is carried by the person making the decision. They have to live with the emotional and physical baggage that goes along with the act, or the lack thereof. I also dont think the biological father should be able to tell a woman she should have an abortion. I do feel that the mother should carry the baby, save any medical dangers to her own health, if the father is able and willing to care for the child..

[Jacko3]

Getting back to the focus of Marlin's original post, I think this piece of legislation will meet the same fate as its predecessors did with subsequent Congresses. Personally, I do think women and to an extent men have the fundamental right to choose to bear a child and they also have the fundamental right to choose not to bear a child. But, I do not believe that woman have the fundamental right to terminate pregnancies, especially in today’s day and age where the fetus is granted no rights, no legal representation or judicial overview. I guess it kind of irks me that while we decry the detainments in Gitmo and capital punishment executions, we totally over look a segment of the population that has no rights or respect of life. I mean death row inmates have typically taken the rights of someone away and had a good portion of their rights taken away from the State. They have also been afforded a trial, been convicted of a heinous crime, had years of appeals before the Governor of the state or a judicial review board can allow the State to execute the inmate. A fetus, who has done nothing more than inconvenienced a woman gets zero overview, from our society. I know the song remains the same with this debate. We all can talk/argue of the rationale for keeping abortion legal. And when the majority of (and I will admit) good reasons (rape, incest, to protect a mothers or child’s life) to keep abortion legal only accounts for a fraction of stated reason why women seek abortions, one can’t help but scratch their head and wonder why this is almost exclusively used as a defense. The majority of abortions performed in the United States are done so out of convenience for the mother. So then after the whole rationale issue hasn’t been solved, the debate takes on an obscure twist about a woman’s right to choose. As if we are making a benign choice about what toothpaste to use, or how to style our hair. There are plenty of activities that I am prohibited by the Federal and State governments from engaging in because it is dangerous to my health, my body or society. And almost always in this country, my right to engage in activities (that may infringe on the rights and sanctity of life) is superseded by the rights of others. So then the argument which hasn’t been resolved to this point moves towards a semantics game. We become concerned with divining the real definition of what life ‘is’, and the terminology that has been created is just an attempt by certain groups with agenda to desensitize the populous from feeling any empathy towards a growing fetus/baby in the womb. While I am not a Papist, I did agree with some of Pope John Paul II’s late encyclical that spoke of the Culture of Death, in which abortion was one of the factors mention. When you look at the rise of feminism and the debate over women’s reproductive health in this country you see that it is very closely linked with the rise of Eugenics. Being very familiar with the role that eugenics played in National Socialist Germany during the 1930’s - 1940’s, I cant help but to mortified that the consequences and the result of devaluing the worth certain groups and desensitizing ourselves to their plight will ultimately lead. I know that I will be beaten up for holding these views and dismissed as a fundie (which I am not) because I hold a certain religious and moral view on the issue. What do you do?

Well said, my good friend. I rarely have much to add each time you are done writing. Well done!

[wawazat8402]

Here is a question that may expand a little on the topic. Is reproduction a right or a privilege?

If its a right, then people can choose to embrace or ignore it.

If its a privilege, what would be wrong with treating it like a drivers license? Say x number of abortions as a means of birth control and the person must subscribe to a birth control implant in order to remain eligible for any government assistance.

Ive always looked at having kids as a privilege. Its a benefit of being a responsible person with the resources to establish a proper home for a kid and the ability to instill a productive set of morals so that the child can grow to become a beneficial part of society. This is why I have always chosen to exhaust any preventive measures. I understand that I currently have neither the financial stability nor a mindset that is mature enough to give the child a foundation it both deserves and needs to become a contributing member of our country rather than just another leech.

[Jacko3]

Here is a question that may expand a little on the topic. Is reproduction a right or a privilege?

If its a right, then people can choose to embrace or ignore it.

If its a privilege, what would be wrong with treating it like a drivers license? Say x number of abortions as a means of birth control and the person must subscribe to a birth control implant in order to remain eligible for any government assistance.

Ive always looked at having kids as a privilege. Its a benefit of being a responsible person with the resources to establish a proper home for a kid and the ability to instill a productive set of morals so that the child can grow to become a beneficial part of society. This is why I have always chosen to exhaust any preventive measures. I understand that I currently have neither the financial stability nor a mindset that is mature enough to give the child a foundation it both deserves and needs to become a contributing member of our country rather than just another leech.

Excellent public policy question and position.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

It's hard to read a bunch of text without indents.

[liquid_cool]

Liquid: I agree that late term abortions are probably disgusting, but that doesn't prove when life actually begins (in order to define murder).

its not the point thats its discusting sir..its the point that the child from the 3nd trimester can survive out of the womb..making the baby a living breathing creation that is "Alive" for all perposes...it is possible that the baby can survive much earlyer out of the womb allso with assistance obviously..so how can someone ; after seeing that baby break the vaginal area and move about due to the sudden cold..smash the head and abort a baby!...you would have to see this done to understand my point..it will wake people up, and break there hearts ...

[liquid_cool]

Here is a question that may expand a little on the topic. Is reproduction a right or a privilege?

If its a right, then people can choose to embrace or ignore it.

If its a privilege, what would be wrong with treating it like a drivers license? Say x number of abortions as a means of birth control and the person must subscribe to a birth control implant in order to remain eligible for any government assistance.

Ive always looked at having kids as a privilege. Its a benefit of being a responsible person with the resources to establish a proper home for a kid and the ability to instill a productive set of morals so that the child can grow to become a beneficial part of society. This is why I have always chosen to exhaust any preventive measures. I understand that I currently have neither the financial stability nor a mindset that is mature enough to give the child a foundation it both deserves and needs to become a contributing member of our country rather than just another leech.

wawa..great post man....i have found in this day and age ..most parents are just egg and sperm doners..they expect the TV and the screewell system to raise the kids while they galabant off to the gym and starbucks with there ear/cell phones up there butts..or stickin out of there ears like a roach on the wall of a sleezy motel they got knockd up in ,in the first place...it is a blessing to have children, to watch them as they grow in amazment of there suroundings..it gets even better when they ask those silly questions or do something crazy to make you smile...or when they say there best friend is you! even after you paddle there butt for beating up there little sister...to be a parent is to with for the good things like those..knowing you will have bad things allso...and knowing..no matter how bad...you will allways care for them.

[marlin29311]

If its a privilege, what would be wrong with treating it like a drivers license? Say x number of abortions as a means of birth control and the person must subscribe to a birth control implant in order to remain eligible for any government assistance.

I'm ok with everything else you said except for this - there is no way in hell I want my tax dollars going to someone whore's birth control. I'm mad enough about all of the bailout crap going on, and the last thing I would want would be for me to fund some chick's BC so she can go out and be irresponsible as well.

I don't necessarily think it needs to be a religious debate, it just so happens that religions find a particular stance on this one. What religion promotes death? Quite frankly, taking the stance that life begins at fertilization is somewhat conservative, which is where religions usually lie - there is no subjectivity, and it's fairly concrete; not to mention that if follows suit with the tenets set forth by pretty much any religion - why wouldn't they go for pro-life? Preserving the sanctity of life has pretty much been a core value for any major religion...

Religions also aim to promote sexual responsibility, and has always advocated for abstenince and waiting until marriage. Subscribing to the pro-life arguement is again something that just follows suit. Abortion is almost a confession of irresponsiblilty, and I can't really see religions going along with that...

wawa..great post man....i have found in this day and age ..most parents are just egg and sperm doners..they expect the TV and the screewell system to raise the kids while they galabant off to the gym and starbucks with there ear/cell phones up there butts..or stickin out of there ears like a roach on the wall of a sleezy motel they got knockd up in ,in the first place...it is a blessing to have children, to watch them as they grow in amazment of there suroundings..it gets even better when they ask those silly questions or do something crazy to make you smile...or when they say there best friend is you! even after you paddle there butt for beating up there little sister...to be a parent is to with for the good things like those..knowing you will have bad things allso...and knowing..no matter how bad...you will allways care for them.

Very very true - there are many people I see around in malls, parks, public places, etc, that if you didn't look closely, you wouldn't even think they had kids! Our society as of late has seemed to promote more of a hedonistic culture as of late, and basically approves of doing whatever the hell you want to and whatever makes you feel good...so what if the kids are jumping on a old man? They're just being kids...and I don't really feel like stopping them...

I know that I will be beaten up for holding these views and dismissed as a fundie (which I am not) because I hold a certain religious and moral view on the issue. What do you do?

I will not beat you up, Bud - I quite enjoyed your post and agree with you

[wawazat8402]

I'm ok with everything else you said except for this - there is no way in hell I want my tax dollars going to someone whore's birth control. I'm mad enough about all of the bailout crap going on, and the last thing I would want would be for me to fund some chick's BC so she can go out and be irresponsible as well.

Id rather not be forced to give my money to these people either. However, I would rather give my money to reducing the number in the next generation that will be raised with the same mindset that its easier to just let others pay your way. IMO, if you cant feed yourself and pay your bills, you dont have the right to bring children into that environment. I work in a pretty low income area of OKC and its frustrating to see people come in with 8 welfare babies tagging along because it makes their welfare check bigger.

I think it would be much cheaper for the responsible Americans to pay for a 5 year birth control implant than feeding 4 extra kids that person would more than likely spit out. Keep in mind, a lot of these kids grow up to be reproducing adults that just add to the burden on the state. Im a big fan of nipping a problem in the bud, thats all.

[Cold_Zero]

It's hard to read a bunch of text without indents.

At least I have grammar, spelling and punctuation. So don't I get some marks? How about this Charlieo, I will write my longer response using JCL. I will make each paragraph a job step, the delimiter will be the end of a paragraph and the use the JCLLIB for any reference notes. Just dont get thrown off by the disposition statements at the end. As we will need to use them to allocate and control any dataset files that we use.

Either that or I can use COBOL or SQL (DB2).j/kbud

[audtatious]

Use FORTRAN or how about RPGII (and put some characters in the wrong columns to see if they are caught)?

[VersaMG08]

It all comes down to personal responsibility. I'm pro-life, but in order for a woman NOT to be raped, they should take action for themselves so they don't become the next victim. When they're raped, they ought to put up the child for adoption instead of an abortion. What are the costs for doctors to perform an abortion anyway? For health reasons, if they were in bad shape to begin with, they shouldn't of brought up the child if they're not healthy enough to support it. Just my two cents.

[C-Kwik]

its not the point thats its discusting sir..its the point that the child from the 3nd trimester can survive out of the womb..making the baby a living breathing creation that is "Alive" for all perposes...it is possible that the baby can survive much earlyer out of the womb allso with assistance obviously..so how can someone ; after seeing that baby break the vaginal area and move about due to the sudden cold..smash the head and abort a baby!...you would have to see this done to understand my point..it will wake people up, and break there hearts ...

Perhaps it can survive, though Wiki indicates viability usually becomes assurred after 27 weeks. But from a technical standpoint, it could also be argued that a life actually begins when the child is born. Its not like we celebrate our conceptiondays. As I said, much of this is a matter of opinion. But if the argument is that life begins when it becomes viable, then how can you argue the whole of abortion? Bear in mind, that only 1.4% of all abortions occur after 20 weeks according to Wikipedia; which is is the point at which it is said that life can fisrt become viable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

Ive always looked at having kids as a privilege. Its a benefit of being a responsible person with the resources to establish a proper home for a kid and the ability to instill a productive set of morals so that the child can grow to become a beneficial part of society.

I actually view it as a responsibility. That is, if you choose to bring a child into the world (not talking about conception here) that one must take on the responsibility of raising the child. I don't view it as a benefit as that comes off as if its a prize for something. Case in point, my GF's cousin and her hubby are very financially sound. They live very modest lives despite having the means to live much more luxurious lifestyle then they do now. They seem fairly conservative. On the surface, they have the makings to be "good" parents. Turns out when they decided to have kids, it turned out they couldn't concieve. So they ended up deciding to adopt. Went through a vast array of hurdles (its a good thing money was not much of an issue for them) and finally were able to adopt a child. Its been a number of years and he is approaching 4 now. They tend to his every need, feed him well, keep him clean and watch him like any responsible parent should. But a closer look reveals they have zero control over this child. He basically runs them. Nothing happens without his say. The child has no discipline. And I doubt he ever receives any.

That said, I'd prefer to see parents who can barely make ends meet but provides proper guidance and parenting than wealthy parents who know little of passing on life skills to their children rear our children.

I think it would be much cheaper for the responsible Americans to pay for a 5 year birth control implant than feeding 4 extra kids that person would more than likely spit out. Keep in mind, a lot of these kids grow up to be reproducing adults that just add to the burden on the state. Im a big fan of nipping a problem in the bud, thats all.

Pretty much sums up my opinion on BC being provided by the government. Not that its ideal, but its a better option than paying welfare. My neighbor works for the welfare department. She describes people who spit out babies to collect welfare. And what pisses her off even more is her younger sister is doing this and talks pretty openly about it. If anything, I'd like to see people like this prevented from having children bred with this type of mentality.

As a sort of aside, I'd recommend watching Idiocracy. Its a comedy that isn't scientific by any means, but makes you have to wonder if society could devolve... If anything, its funny as hell.

[liquid_cool]

in my point of view sir..life is vaible when the cell starts deviding and replication into more and more cells to form the fetus..and that happens at conception..if you donot want kids..use birth controll products..if ya do..then "you know" and bam..all done...but to use the excuse that life begins at birth to have an easy out due to lack of responcibility is just crazy...its amazing what todays society will tolorate.

[wawazat8402]

I guess I am just middle ground. I still believe it becomes a life once it is capable of being removed and still surviving, even if this means medical intervention to make it so.

This is why I dont think the abortion topic will ever reach a middle ground. Its very emotional because we are talking about babies and there is no solid answer for defining when life begins.

This is just one of those topics where every point made to support one side can be disproved by the other as its all just an opinion. I think these topics that are based purely on opinion should be left to the individual to decide. Each person knows what he or she feels comfortable with and can live with. I wouldnt dare try to force my beliefs, or lack thereof, on someone else who had already found a set of beliefs that worked for him/her.

I also think this topic is whored out by several organizations to make it on the news and "rally the tropps" so to speak.

[audtatious]

Here's an update:

http://www.lifenews.com/nat4865.html

[C-Kwik]

in my point of view sir..life is vaible when the cell starts deviding and replication into more and more cells to form the fetus..and that happens at conception..if you donot want kids..use birth controll products..if ya do..then "you know" and bam..all done...but to use the excuse that life begins at birth to have an easy out due to lack of responcibility is just crazy...its amazing what todays society will tolorate.

You are welcome to your point of view and I respect that. And I agree that BC is important, as is sex education. But life isn't so idealistic. If it was, this debate wouldn't exist. But consider that what you believe and what can be proven or agreed upon are very different. Just consider that other people have differing beliefs. What you believe can be applied to your life. I'll apply what I believe to mine.