float/dee/TMS....butterfly question

[bentvalves]

zerothread/225309

Yellow vaccum line is the one in question. I no longer have the factory boost control solenoid in place as it has been replaced with AVCR hardware. The hard line along the back of the head is gone as well.

What I have done, and Im not sure if its kosher, is run the yellow line to the intake manifold behind the throttle body. I had no idea where to run it, and originally had it plumbed into the intake after the MAF. It was brought to my attention that this was incorrect, and behind the throttle body was suggested to me.

If you see anything wrong with my setup, please let me know as I would like the butterflies functioning properply for dyno day.
Modified by ks13 at 8:30 PM 6/25/2007

[Bwana]

Does this help at all?

[r34 gtr]

yank those suckers out! I am serious, I dont think enough people read my post on removing them. I picked up OVER 100 CFM. Horsepower wise thats about 50 if my turbo could flow it. Sorry if I sound like a broken record but it costs you like, $7 with the tap and allen plugs and its good for some big gains.

[bentvalves]

Bwana, thats the link I have posted at the top.

It helps, but not enough.

Because I no longer have the stock boost control solenoid in place, Im confused on where the yellow line should now get its pressure/vac from.

What I did when I removed the factory solenoid, was run that yellow line straight to the intake pipe after the MAF.

I had a mechanic take a look at it, along with my tuner and they said that was wrong. They advised me to put it behind the throttle body on the intake manifold.
Modified by ks13 at 7:40 PM 6/25/2007

[Bwana]

I really don't think you can make the system work without a solenoid somewhere man, not the way I read the diagram...

[bentvalves]

well shyetty, see thats what Im worried about.

if they're not working properly, then Id rather have them open all the time.

It was almost as if the mechanic was unsure when he suggested the intake manifold, cause he was then unsure if it would need a one way valve for when off boost.

Looking at the diagram (butterfly FAQ) Im not even sure what to make of it because the factory solenoid has 2 ports on it, and..........oh im confused.

[bentvalves]

aright im starting to make a little more sense of this diagram.

just answer me this one question......is the yellow line being T'd into the wastegate acuator signal, or the boost pressure signal on the turbos outlet?

Greg

the diagram makes it look like the wastegate actuator and the nipple on the turbos outlet get T'd together on their way back to the solenoid. That cant be right can it?

Could someone go take a look at their setup if they still have the factory solenoid in place please?

edit: you guys dont have boost control solenoids do you....I take it they dont come with motorsets.

Boost is controlled right off the gate actuator, or you've installed MBC's.
Modified by ks13 at 3:49 PM 6/23/2007

[themadscientist]

I have to pull my intake to weld on subinjector bungs and when I do the butterflys are going byebye along with that rat's nest of hose. I see where the system has it's merits but I like things as simple as possible so it's gone. The spot where the vacuum tank and solenoid went will be a perfect place for my AIC driver box.

[boost_boy]

CAn I make a suggestion to save you from a massive headache, do not attach vacuum to the butterfly actuator because it will not function the way the factory intended it to work if you attach direct manifold pressure/vacuum. As for the hose deal, as long as the fuel pressure regulator got vacuum, and you have nothing else that needs vacuum, cap/plug it.

Dee

[bentvalves]

yea next time im in there and upgrading my turbo to something bigger I'll prolly do away with them.

because I have a car that came working with butterflies however, for the time being Id like to keep it that way.

EVERYTHING that was there when it was working is still in place. The only line in question is the YELLOW line.

where do I go with it now that my factory BCS is gone?

Greg
Modified by ks13 at 12:44 PM 7/1/2007

[bentvalves]

nobody can advise me where to run the yellow line anymore know that my factory boost control solenoid has been removed?

c'mon float you're the one that suggested that because I had a working set of butterflies, I should keep it like that.

help me out someone, little shyet like this is so frustrating.

[boost_boy]

People will argue, but I personally just leave them open or like others have suggested, take them out if you want to. I've built many a CA18 and I just leave them open and the engine still performs great. Just leave the vacuum line off it and see how the car drives.

Dee

[bentvalves]

well If push comes to shove, I will have to leave them open, but that really isnt what Im trying to do.

Id love for them to work, but without the factory BCS in place, is there anyway to get them functioning as they should?

please peeps give me some insight here.

If I have to run them open, how do I go about doing so?

Greg

taken from above link

"The solenoid also has a connection running around to the intake side of the engine, behind the MAF, before the turbo, where it "dumps" the vacuum when the butterflies are switched off"

This is the line in question. Because it was T'd into one of the ports on the factory BCS, I no longer know what to do with it.

Why does my AVCR solenoid have one line to actuator and one line to hot pipe (pressure source) While the factory had one line to the actuator and one to the intake after maf pre turbo?

heeeeelp heeeelp heeeelp heeelp help................
Modified by ks13 at 7:34 PM 6/27/2007

[mikesim]

it doesn't look like you can use it without the BCS in place man. it needs ambient for them to be open, and vacuum to be closed.

figure that out and, you'll have your answer.

[bentvalves]

I dont know im just gonna throw it out there, but what about sending it right to the intake before turbo with a one way valve?

Originally thats where it ultimatley unds up.

Greg

[superJoy]

Reinstall the hard line that goes behind the head, and hook up the "yellow" line to the intake tube where it was originally, omitting the boost solenoid entirely. The BCS uses the ambient air line, but the butterfly system will function the same even if the BCS isn't there.



It's designed to work that way, so that's how you should do it. You shouldn't need a valve or anything on that line.

[bentvalves]

Yea you think It'll function like it was intended even without the BCS there? Thats how I interpreted it and 2 hours before dyno time, cars on the trailer ready to go, and Im scrambling to remove my intake and weld a nipple into it for that line.

Thats HOW I had it when I showed up for dyno, but was then advised to plumb it behind the throttle body. God I hate when people give their insight when they're not sure. If you dont know or are unsure, just say "I dunno".

[superJoy]

A normal mechanic doesn't know anything about the CA18DET or how its butterfly system works. He probably thought it was a normal vacuum line. It's not. Vacuum from the intake manifold is stored in a tank so the butterfly actuator can be constantly engaged and holding the butterfly's shut. When the butterfly's need to be open, the solenoid dumps the vacuum from the tank through the ambient air line, in turn making the butterfly actuator open the valves. If you were to plumb the line back into the intake manifold, it'd be dumping vacuum from the intake manifold back into the intake manifold, and the system wouldn't function properly.

The BCS just makes some use of that extraneous air that's dumped. The butterfly system will work fine without it, as long as it's still dumping to ambient air...

[float_6969]

Everything he said is correct except that it needs to dump into the suction side of the turbo, not the ambient air.

That could act as a boost/vac leak and would cause problems considering you have a MAFS.

[superJoy]

Oops, I meant that it needs to go to the intake tube post-MAF, as seen in both my Photoshop'd diagram and the FAST diagram. I should have clarified. That's what you meant, correct?

[float_6969]

Yup!

[bentvalves]

A normal mechanic doesn't know anything about the CA18DET or how its butterfly system works.

Yea I figured such, so I showed him the colored diagram I've posted at the top of this link. They still advised me otherwise those FOOLS!

But yea, thanks for the insight superJoy, and others.

Greg

[superJoy]

No problem man, glad to be of assistance. Ghetto 80s-style vacuum systems don't really make sense---why use vacuum to operate the butterfly actuator when an electric servo would suffice? Oh, right! The people that designed this engine were also associated with the Z31! D'oh!---so I can understand if they didn't get how the system works.

[bentvalves]

Hm, and I used to worry that my power FC wouldnt be able to control these things, when in reality it's vacuum that controls the butterflies and nothing else.

[superJoy]

Actually, the ECU tells the solenoid when to dump the vacuum and open the butterfly's.

[themadscientist]

I can't wait to rip that **** out.

[bentvalves]

Aarrgh thats ****ty. Hope apexi took those butterflies into consideration when designing this PFC.

[DIng-KF]

I connected the butterfly actuator with a vaccum line that was blocked today, i guess this is the easy way to connect it. Anyway, i had never used this actuator in the past (it s been about 3 years now). I did notice some improvement at low and mid rpm range, and the engine runs a bit smoother. Is it ok to leave it as it is ?? I didn't really do anything more than connect a vaccum line to it . Does it work this way or is it just me thinking the engine runs better?

[bentvalves]

Have a good read of the link posted at the top of this thread.