Fine for refusing health care?!?!?! - The Health care thread....

[EvillE423]

Just came across this on Yahoo!:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...rhaul

Americans who refuse to buy affordable medical coverage could be hit with fines of more than $1,000 under a health care overhaul bill unveiled Thursday by key Senate Democrats looking to fulfill President Barack Obama's top domestic priority.

What is affordable to most, still may not be affordable to others. While some form of health insurance is better than none, some may not want health care governed by Uncle Sam, which is going to be garbage anyways. Socialism at it's best. Stuff like this is EXACTLY why this man is going to run this country into the ground.

Any input?

[audtatious]

It'll pass and youth, who historically don't care for health insurance "out of pocket", will have to start paying or be fined.

It's for their own good, don't cha know?

[hsckris]

[480sx]

Because i dont have the time to read the article i just want to say this for now.

There is a LOT more to this than 'This Man'. To believe that BO is anywhere near single handedly doing anything such as this is in plain view indicates to me that you need to go take a US government class.

Bush received a lot of the same stuff. Hell, i gave bush some of the same stuff..

Regardless, its not the way it happens or works.

[audtatious]

It's a joint effort, that's for sure. Can't pass stuff like this without Congressional support. At least right now you can't

[EvillE423]

Because i dont have the time to read the article i just want to say this for now.

There is a LOT more to this than 'This Man'. To believe that BO is anywhere near single handedly doing anything such as this is in plain view indicates to me that you need to go take a US government class.

Bush received a lot of the same stuff. Hell, i gave bush some of the same stuff..

Regardless, its not the way it happens or works.

I know that BO isn't the ONLY person that has a say so in law making or whatever. But it's obvious that HE is going to sign this bill into law, being he is all for health care reform. I have taken US government classes and and totally aware of how the judicial system works. I was simply trying to imply that it's ridiculous how much this administration wants to control what it is I do. If I want to sit in my house and die a slow painful death because I don't want to pay for healthcare, that should be my right to do so. The way things are going, this isn't going to be a "free" country anymore.

[PoorManQ45]

Healthcare in this country is a joke.

For a 4 person family, not going through your job, you're looking at something like $200 a month for health insurance(last quote for our family was $300+, but that's with some health conditions).

That in itself sucks, but on top of that policies have deductibles and copays that cost you more money any time you actually use the insurance.

It's stupid, people say that if we go to a socialistic health care system taxes will be raised. Yeah, will they be raised as much as the actual cost of healthcare currently, and would you have to pay every time you go to the doctor in addition to your normal fees?

It's a bunch of crap. I have healthcare, I cant afford to use it!!!

[audtatious]

work two jobs. Good health is not a right

[PoorManQ45]

I think I detect a little sarcasm in there, but you never know with this interwebz thing...

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Healthcare in this country is a joke.

For a 4 person family, not going through your job, you're looking at something like $200 a month for health insurance(last quote for our family was $300+, but that's with some health conditions).

That in itself sucks, but on top of that policies have deductibles and copays that cost you more money any time you actually use the insurance.

It's stupid, people say that if we go to a socialistic health care system taxes will be raised. Yeah, will they be raised as much as the actual cost of healthcare currently, and would you have to pay every time you go to the doctor in addition to your normal fees?

It's a bunch of crap. I have healthcare, I cant afford to use it!!!

A solution already exists: Health Savings Accounts. It's probably the best idea the government has had in awhile.

Universal Healthcare WILL raise taxes beyond what many people pay for healthcare. Especially those who use HSAs. Also, I'll have to pay for it, and I don't pay a dime for my healthcare. x>0.

We need insurance reform, not replacement.

[ishkabibble]

work two jobs. Good health is not a right

What if you are too sick to work two jobs?

[audtatious]

Show me where, in the Constitution, it says you have the right to healthcare and the right to force others to pay for it.

The current system does need to be fixed. I simply don't see UH being the solution.

[ishkabibble]

The right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is in the Declaration of Independence.

Your solution to being unable to pay for healthcare is to "work more". Since you sidestepped the question, I'll ask it again - What if you are too sick to work?

It's weird that conservatives are so adamant about abortion and Terri Schiavo, but seem fine with letting less affluent people die or suffer due to a lack of funds/insurance.

[audtatious]

Ah, the 'ole "catch all". You act as though people without insurance today are denied medical attention. My wife will get a kick outta that one.

Thanks for lumping me in with your general world view as I'm not against abortion and thought Shiavo should have had the plug pulled way before it was.

[PoorManQ45]

Ah, the 'ole "catch all". You act as though people without insurance today are denied medical attention. My wife will get a kick outta that one.

No matter how much I dislike Michael Moore, watch Sicko. It was kind of interesting to put the health care system into perspective.

People are kicked out of some hospitals if they don't have insurance, or are believed not to be able to afford the bill.

[ishkabibble]

Ah, the 'ole "catch all". You act as though people without insurance today are denied medical attention. My wife will get a kick outta that one.

Show me where I am acting as you claim. Did I not say "pay for healthcare"? Quit trying to stretch my perspective to fit into your worldview.

You're still deflecting.

[audtatious]

No matter how much I dislike Michael Moore, watch Sicko. It was kind of interesting to put the health care system into perspective.

People are kicked out of some hospitals if they don't have insurance, or are believed not to be able to afford the bill.

They sure aren't where my wife works. Half her patients are indigent.

[audtatious]

The right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is in the Declaration of Independence.

They were born and are living, thus they have life. They have the ability, within the law, to do what they want thus they have liberty. They can pursue happiness all they want but it's not a guarantee.

Your solution to being unable to pay for healthcare is to "work more". Since you sidestepped the question, I'll ask it again - What if you are too sick to work?

You take what you get. You think UH is going to help solve that issue? UH will provide steps and measurements for treatment based upon a government panel and not upon the doctors decision for the individual. The lines for treatment will be long with the result being worse and more expensive than what we have in place today. I've said it before and I'll say it again, find a workable fix for what we have now.

Do I expect people to work two jobs simply for health care? Of course not. Hell, most won't work two jobs to simply pay their immediate bills.

[ishkabibble]

find a workable fix for what we have now.

I agree, and the answer is not "work more".

Health insurance is not part of the fix. Health care is.

[audtatious]

PMQ caught my sarcasm.

There is nothing wrong with our health care from a medical perspective. It's access to and paying for it. Doctors and hospitals have huge insurance fees due to lawsuits (some just, some not) and the number of those who get treatment and pay for it is getting smaller and smaller. This leads to increased expense to those who do pay. As the cost of health care rises, so does the cost of coverage to the point where it's no longer affordable to those with low incomes nor the SBO to supply coverage to their employees. Group insurance would be a good step for SBO as they would have been able to pool their funds nationally to get some form of plan for their employees. I have no idea what happened to that at this point. What I do remember seeing is the direction to make SBO's provide coverage as a mandate which will simply not work without something like a national group plan. UH does not solve that problem at all. UH's plan is to nationalize HC under a Gov plan at little to no cost to those without current health care and to mandate health care coverage. Looks good on the outside but the inside of that scenario really seems to suck for reasons mentioned earlier.

[PoorManQ45]

UH will provide steps and measurements for treatment based upon a government panel and not upon the doctors decision for the individual. The lines for treatment will be long with the result being worse and more expensive than what we have in place today.

I agree with you on everything except this.

Look at the countries that already have UH. You can walk into any doctor's office or hospital, fill out the some forms like you would here, and you are treated. There is no "government intervention" in treatment decisions.

Hell, in some of the locations they even have a cashier. But you don't pay them, they pay you for the cab fare home

If implemented properly, which our government will NOT do, UH can be efficient.

[PoorManQ45]

Doctors and hospitals have huge insurance fees due to lawsuits (some just, some not) and the number of those who get treatment and pay for it is getting smaller and smaller.

In countries that have UH the government protects the doctors from frivolous lawsuits for supposed malpractice.

The doctors themselves make ~$80k~$300k still. So they're very well off.

[audtatious]

hmmm....8-12+ years of school to earn up to 300k? Sounds like a deal.

What happens when everyone having yearly or bi-yearly checkups begin? Romneycare showed 6+ month waiting lists with the majority of doctors not taking new patients. What do you do, mandate medical students to become GP's where you work 10-12 hour days, are on call for your patients 24x7 and get to make a whopping 80-100k for the effort? What happens when people simply don't want to take care of themselves? Yep, what this thread is about, fine them.

[hsckris]

Look at the countries that already have UH. You can walk into any doctor's office or hospital, fill out the some forms like you would here, and you are treated. There is no "government intervention" in treatment decisions.

Sorry, you are misinformed. I know multiple people (quite well in fact) who are from countries with universal health care. While none will say for sure whether they prefer the US system or not, they all say that the lines are ridiculous. So much so that if you don't sustain a serious injury or have a terrible medical problem, you just don't seek treatment. In other words, from what I've heard from direct sources those in universal systems elsewhere often attempt to self-medicate or suck it up before dealing with the ridiculous lines of professional facilities (unless they have a truly serious situation). Nothing I have seen suggests universal system here would be any better.

Personally, I cannot think of a single thing in the course of human history that was operated better under government control than it was under private control.

[heliochrome85]

hmmm....8-12+ years of school to earn up to 300k? Sounds like a deal.

currently, starting salary for GI is around 450k out of residency. A GI with ERCP (gallbladder endoscopy) is able to command upwards of 650k+. Part of the reason for the salary hike is the amount of demand there is for thse kinds of doctors. I'm only a second year, so i still have a ways to go, but there sure as hell is alot more than just 300k.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Sorry, you are misinformed. I know multiple people (quite well in fact) who are from countries with universal health care. While none will say for sure whether they prefer the US system or not, they all say that the lines are ridiculous. So much so that if you don't sustain a serious injury or have a terrible medical problem, you just don't seek treatment. In other words, from what I've heard from direct sources those in universal systems elsewhere often attempt to self-medicate or suck it up before dealing with the ridiculous lines of professional facilities (unless they have a truly serious situation). Nothing I have seen suggests universal system here would be any better.

Personally, I cannot think of a single thing in the course of human history that was operated better under government control than it was under private control.

Nobody flies to the UK to get a medical procedure done!

[AZhitman]

A solution already exists: Health Savings Accounts. It's probably the best idea the government has had in awhile.

Universal Healthcare WILL raise taxes beyond what many people pay for healthcare. Especially those who use HSAs. Also, I'll have to pay for it, and I don't pay a dime for my healthcare. x>0.

We need insurance reform, not replacement.

I rarely agree with Charlieo, but he's spot-on here.

Ish, as usual, is all for absolving others of their responsibilities and letting the almighty government raise us from birth to death.

[PoorManQ45]

hmmm....8-12+ years of school to earn up to 300k? Sounds like a deal.

That's another flaw in the system.

Most countries with UH have free higher education

*edit* France has 24x7 doctors that make house calls

[PoorManQ45]

Also, I am curious, what do you guys consider alot of money? Or rather a VERY comfortable amount.

At a lowly $100k you are bringing in ~$7k a month after taxes. Where can you not live on that and afford anything you want?

*edit* Maybe my wants arn't as grand as some...

[audtatious]

currently, starting salary for GI is around 450k out of residency. A GI with ERCP (gallbladder endoscopy) is able to command upwards of 650k+. Part of the reason for the salary hike is the amount of demand there is for thse kinds of doctors. I'm only a second year, so i still have a ways to go, but there sure as hell is alot more than just 300k.

My sister-in-law is the OB/GYN doc at a "doctors hospital" in Evansville and now a partner. She's making bank but works her butt off in a field where insurance rates are horrid and has to charge accordingly. She is very outspoken on UH initiatives and hates it. My wife is an RN and I hear all about patients she has to treat who are primarily there for the drugs and tend to "step outside" for other drugs while still in the hospital, with the bills all on our backs. My GP is great but is working 80 hours a week trying to make ends meet and the last time I spoke with her she had to see a patient at least every 10 minutes just to pay the bills, which is ridiculous. You constantly see commercials on TV for law firms wanting to sue for medical issues, etc etc etc.

There is lots that can be fixed within the current system to make things better.