Fine for refusing health care?!?!?! - The Health care thread....

[audtatious]

Then why do you think they will get this one right? History has shown the Gov can't manage anything properly.

[PoorManQ45]

Sorry I didn't make it clear. I am arguing for UH. Not this plan, but UH in general is a good thing.

[seang]

Well its clear then, we should all vote for whats best for us. I was just trying to imagine paying off a 300k bill. I would feel comfortable paying 10 dollars a week, maybe 15. Its overwhelming.

[audtatious]

I would not mind UH in general but do not see how it can be enacted properly here. Same goes for Gov-paid college. Gov-paid anything is a bad idea, IMO. Take it to the state level and let each state vote what they want.

[PoorManQ45]

I would not mind UH in general but do not see how it can be enacted properly here. Same goes for Gov-paid college. Gov-paid anything is a bad idea, IMO. Take it to the state level and let each state vote what they want.

I agree completely. Our government can't do it right.

You know what those other countries generally have in common with each other? The government is afraid of the people. Here it is the other way around.

[audtatious]

If you agree that the Gov won't do it right, why do you seem to be for the current UH initiatives?

[PoorManQ45]

Reading over my posts I can see where I came off like that.

I am not for the current initiative towards UH.

I am for a properly implemented system, but that wont happen in this country. To many other systems would have to change for the system to work properly.

Such as the protection of doctors from lawsuits and the cost of schooling.

[audtatious]

OK...I perceived you as being pro-anything-UH.

Then we pretty much agree on most points. The problem with really fixing things is due to multiple issues with most of the issue being greed. First step to fixing things is to get rid of lobbyists. Then set things up where politicians have no outside income other than their salary and no way to "get rich for votes while a politician" after they leave. This will help ensure that politicians are there for the right reasons as there are plenty of people who care to do the right thing for the US as a whole. Hell, make stiff penalties for those who "sell their votes". Without lobbyists there should be a natural reform of industry going on. Problem with even trying to implement something similar to this is lawyers, which most politicians are.........won't happen.

[C-Kwik]

I would not mind UH in general but do not see how it can be enacted properly here.

Right...because private healthcare is working? Lets see...in 2005, it was estimated that about 46 million Americans were uninsured. Its likely gone up since due to the rise of unemployment. Americans spend about 17% of the GDP on healthcare. Compared to rates closer to about 10% in countries that offer UH. I can't recall the exact figure, but the US also spends much more on adminstering health care coverage than countries with UH as well (one site I ran into said some 6 times more). 50% of bankruptcies in the US were influenced at least in part by medical expenses. To top that off, 68% of those who did file BK HAD health insurance (implicating a large amount of out of pocket expenses even with healthcare). The fact is, that we are, in some form or another, paying for these unpaid expenses, in some form or another already. We might as well keep people out of bankruptcy, or out of foreclosure for being unable to pay their mortgage as a result of high and unexpected medical expenses. I doubt the overall spending wil go up. In fact, long term, I'd expect to see it go down as preventive care becomes available to more people.

So I'll just ask this: what is it that private healthcare is actually doing right?

[audtatious]

46 million Americans.......Even the Census report itself states "health insurance coverage is likely to be underreported on the Current Population Survey.". That 46 million number included those who went a portion of the year without insurance. Some other information which came from the census:

- 17.5 million -- 38 percent -- of the uninsured make more than $50,000 a year (9.1 million have an annual income of over $75,000 a year) and chose not to have coverage - 10 million of that number are not US citizens- 14 million are eligible for Medicare, Medicaid, or SCHIP programs

From what I can tell, there are appx 8 million Americans who are "chronically uninsured" and never have coverage throughout the year due to making too much for other programs and not being able to afford health care insurance. Yes, this number has probably since gone up due to the current economy......

[C-Kwik]

46 million Americans.......Even the Census report itself states "health insurance coverage is likely to be underreported on the Current Population Survey.". That 46 million number included those who went a portion of the year without insurance. Some other information which came from the census:

- 17.5 million -- 38 percent -- of the uninsured make more than $50,000 a year (9.1 million have an annual income of over $75,000 a year) and chose not to have coverage - 10 million of that number are not US citizens- 14 million are eligible for Medicare, Medicaid, or SCHIP programs

From what I can tell, there are appx 8 million Americans who are "chronically uninsured" and never have coverage throughout the year due to making too much for other programs and not being able to afford health care insurance. Yes, this number has probably since gone up due to the current economy......

Not sure what not being a US citizen has to do with it...

Nevertheless, good info. But how much of those overlap each other? Numbers can be minsinterpreted in a number of ways. Including mine.

Ultimately, though, my question still stands? What has privatized health insurance done for us?

[PoorManQ45]

People often only state the numbers that contribute to their argument

[audtatious]

Not sure what not being a US citizen has to do with it...

Nevertheless, good info. But how much of those overlap each other? Numbers can be minsinterpreted in a number of ways. Including mine.

Ultimately, though, my question still stands? What has privatized health insurance done for us?

I'm sure there is some overlap, thus the estimation of 8 million. From a non-citizen perspective the assumption is they would not be covered anyway so they should not count within the census as it pertains to US citizen health care.

I'm not arguing that the current system works. From my perspective, as I pay/have coverage, it works OK-ish as I have some protection. As a whole it does need to be fixed, I just don't see the current UH as being anything better. Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security....all screwed up as well and those are Gov programs.

[heliochrome85]

screwed up yes, but better than nothing. I for one, am glad that at the very least, people are talking about it. Education never hurt anyone.

[AZhitman]

More like I'm pragmatic. Everyone needs health care; centralized basic health care makes sense.

Show me where I am consistently "for absolving others of their responsibilities and letting the almighty government raise us from birth to death."

I know you won't; your strategy when you get called out when you are wrong is to just not respond.

That doesn't make you a pragmatist. That makes you a dreamer.

Everyone needs food, shelter and clothing. The government is under NO obligation to provide any of the above.

People do not, in any instance, have a "right" to health care. Just like no one has a "right" to great hair, straight white teeth, or perfect eyesight.

Centralized health care in a utopian society makes plenty of sense. THEN AGAIN, so does free education. Hmmmm....

But brighter people than you and I have been pushing for it for years, and the barriers to it are enormous. They cannot be ignored, unless one chooses to stick one's head in the sand.

And you couldn't be more wrong re: my "strategy". My record speaks for itself, I'm very much a "last word" kind of guy - Ask Tariq.

[heliochrome85]

Greg ist Der Fuhrer!Der Fuhrer is Der Fuhrer!

(sorry, was watching Downfall earlier, and reliving my German speaking college years)

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Where are you gettng this information? From as much as I can gather, that just simply isnt true.

I'll admit my evidence is mostly anecdotal in nature. However, there is some evidence to back it up, especially in Britain, especially in their dental system (there's a reason that Americans traveling to Britain can be pegged as Americans thanks to their extremely nice teeth).

[PoorManQ45]

Centralized health care in a utopian society makes plenty of sense. THEN AGAIN, so does free education. Hmmmm....

What are your thoughts on this type of system, if it were implemented as efficiently as possible? Example being France.

[480sx]

Ultimately, though, my question still stands? What has privatized health insurance done for us?

Without doing any current research or statistic findings, ill just say this. We have some of the most advanced health care in the world in certain locations around the US. Our cancer survivor rate trumps that of any other country i believe. People with money come from all over the world to see some of our doctors.

Ever see a linear accelerator? Yea they are one of the coolest things ever and 'common' in America at this point.

Public health care kinda falls under the whole communism theory of failure IMO. That being, without the desire to strive to be the best doctor, to make the best advancements and provide the best treatment so they can make the most money, you get substandard, lackluster care. You see it everywhere universal health care is offered. You see it here in America too, but the good outweighs the bad IMO.

As AZ said, no one has the 'right' to health care. If your to god damn worthless to get off your a** and work for your own benefit, why the hell should the government give a rats a** about you? Why should i have to pay the bill of some freeloader? Or some single mom living out of a trailer who decides to have 10 kids on welfare... Yea i really wana float that bill, i can see my money going to good use.

I do believe that reform is needed, but frankly, this system does work. Its a sticky situation because how do you say well, you deserve this money for health care for your fam but this other fam doesnt because of X. IMO, there are a lot of people who dont deserve universal health care. There are enough people on this earth already. What happened to survival of the fittest? What happened to the laws of nature?

It just infuriates me to think that there is a possibility of some low life that can say, smoke all his life then bleed US dry later in his life going through CPD/cardiac treatment.

In addition, its stupid that this country focuses so much on treatment instead of prevention. As the adage goes.. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Not really that hard to stay healthy for most people. Even those with illnesses can do a LOT more than they probably do to benefit themselves. If the government wanted to do something smart, they would do a 'universal keep your a** healthy by doing this and not doing that' plan. Teach it to the kids, teach it to anyone who cares. Personalize it, make it a big deal. Pretty basic s*** really, but i mean I(probably we) take a lot of things for granted.

I mean sometime in the future, maybe after we get ourselves into a stable platform we can revisit this issue. Im not against some sort of universal care for anyone under the age of 18, and think that the potential policy could prove to have some pretty nice benefits for society. Its amazing where you can find diamonds..

While a part of me likes the idea of a somewhat socialistic society, a line has to be drawn somewhere. I think that line was drawn when we crossed 10 trillion dollars worth of debt. We cant just simply pass the burdens of our X onto our children and let them sort it out.

[PoorManQ45]

Without doing any current research or statistic findings, ill just say this. We have some of the most advanced health care in the world in certain locations around the US. Our cancer survivor rate trumps that of any other country i believe. People with money come from all over the world to see some of our doctors.

Our infant survival rate is rate somewhere around 40th in the world...

[480sx]

Yea, uh, cite that.

[hsckris]

Our infant survival rate is rate somewhere around 40th in the world...

Which I blame on 1) recreational drug and alcohol use and 2) the whole "I didn't know I was pregnant" thing.

My point: there are any number of reasons our infant rate would or would not be in the top 10. This statistic, in and of itself, proves nothing about the quality of our healthcare.

[seang]

I advocated prevention earlier in this thread, and I am glad 480sx does so too, with a passion. I believe some people are too sloppy to stay preventative, and thats my biggest fear here. The laws of nature certainly haven't changed. But regardless, someone out there is a loved one of those sick people, and they will not, could not, appreciate the notion of thier loved one being a mere "broken cog" in the social machine. High infant mortality rates as well as congenial defects in my opinion can stem from genetic degredation of the population, and possible accidental inbreeding. How could you possibly know that the person you are having kids with isn't your 3rd cousin from way back in the family tree? Its a radical thought, but is it? Also, stress dosen't increase health at all, stress contributes to premature births which can kill babies, and how many pregnant mothers out there are stressed? God, is there any way out of this?
Modified by seang at 8:52 PM 7/6/2009

[PoorManQ45]

If the government wanted to do something smart, they would do a 'universal keep your a** healthy by doing this and not doing that' plan. Teach it to the kids, teach it to anyone who cares. Personalize it, make it a big deal. Pretty basic s*** really, but i mean I(probably we) take a lot of things for granted.

Thoughts on tax cuts for companies that serve healthy food at the same or lower cost then the unhealthy crap?

I think it is retarded that places offer a tiny salad that costs as much as any entire unhealthy meal!

[PoorManQ45]

Yea, uh, cite that.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/G...66515

[heliochrome85]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04...?_r=1

cited.

[heliochrome85]

see, part of the problem is that it is very expensive to eat healthy, and monumentally cheap to eat poorly. maybe now everyone understands how complex the health care issue. you have unwed teen mothers, you have overaeting poor people, you have welfare fraud families, and at the center of it, a government that is demanded to fix it all. There is no perfect solution, but we have to try and find it. To sit and say, that isnt going to work, doesnt help.

[PoorManQ45]

How could you possibly know that the person you are having kids with isn't your 3rd cousin from way back in the family tree? Its a radical thought, but is it?

Hell, i'd probably knowingly...

[audtatious]

46th with a death rate of 6.26 per 1000. The best is Singapore at 2.31 and the worst is Angola at 180.21, via CIA World Factbook.

[PoorManQ45]

Nice lookup

That puts it in perspective. It's not really that bad, but still... It's a fun fact to throw out without all the info

People just have this misconception that America is so technologically advanced when it comes to medicine. Cuba has most of the things we have!