FI/KS repair gone bad

[cccpman]

Over the last couple days I have pretty much replaced every hose I didnt replace earlier, minus the ones my fat hands will just not reach. Replaced both KS, and two injectors - cleaned up the engine like no other in the process (it needed it after all the antifreeze spilled everywhere)

Attempted to start the car up, I didnt think it would go first try but it did - Idle jumped to 1200 RPM, then down to like 300, back up to 1000, down to 200, up to 900, down to 100, up to 600, down to 0. Pretty much like that, we tried it a couple times. This all happens quickly, probably about 5-10 seconds, when it hits 0 of course the car just stops. I know of at least 3 hoses that were problematic in the repair, two of them we had a makeshift repair on (a slightly larger hose but well clamped down twice on each end) and the last one we just could really mess around with because we are pretty big guys and without taking the hood off there was no way of getting at it (and the hood is welded and bolted on, thats normal right?).

The hose is center horizontally under the plenum but all the way up (towards windshield). Im thinking that the darn thing maybe split while it was being put in or slid off in the process. I tried to follow the howto on Q45.org and it went pretty much the same, when I got to this step "Start it up and pray you didnt leave something undone" is when I realized that I jacked up

Now a second option to what could have jacked this all up, the step "ALSO, BE SURE TO SAVE THE OLD PLENUM GASKETS AS YOU NEED THE METAL RINGS INSIDE THEM!!!!". The gasket is the round metal disc that fits right inside - I saved them all and put them back. However reading that over and over trying to figure out what I did wrong - do I need new gaskets and just save the metal ring (I thought it was all just a big metal ring, at least mine were)

The hoses on the sides that had the makeshift repairs were the ones that just put some exhaust gas back into the engine (for emissions and some millage is how it was all explained to me) - they are basically exactly the same but maybe have a slightly more constricted airflow then OEM (new ones are already ordered so I can go all OEM)

Its $40 an hour to pay my mechanic, he wants to take an hour to find out whats wrong so I just paid him for that and will know tomorrow - but this work under the plenum took forever and I cant afford 4 or 5 hours plus parts plus fudge money so im posting this here

[superuber]

The plenum gaskets, 8 of them, are rubber. There is a center metal ring you put the gaskets around to hold the form. If you used your old one's this could be your problem. If they were that hard that you could not tell if they were rubber they are trash! Keep going. Don't pay someone who knows less about the Q than you! If you need skinny hands call wes!!!!!

It's not rocket science guys!I'd rather work ona a Q than a Benz!

[Q45tech]

Untrained owners and non certified and low experienced technicans [less than 10,000 hours on Q] cause more problems than natural degradation ever does.

I'm serious even our techs who specialize in Lexus but must share the load depending on what comes in run from cross over work.

[superuber]

It's hard to gauge experience and raw talent over the boards. All we can do is suggest. You know your level of skill. I'm not a Q tech by no means but I did my under plenum in about three hours with the valve covers to boot. And that was my first time! If all I worked on was Q's I would be dangerous! I think Wes said he can get his plenum off in 15 minutes! 10,000-3=9997.......gives me something to shoot fer!Hope the Q makes it to my 10,000 hours!

[cccpman]

All right that could be, and probably is the very problem, if there were little rubber gaskets or whatever they are made of they were LONG gone - I expected there to be some sort of gasket because the engine has several others but I did check and couldn't find any - I will try to find some locally for a repair and if I cant order from Joe

Q45tech - I don't have the time or money to take my car to an infiniti mechanic every time it has a hiccup - would you rather have somebody work on their own car or take it to just any mechanic? It would be ideal but it just is not, all my time with the dealers mechanics only throws out warning signs as my 90Q seems to be the only older Q taken there for anything - they know less about my car then I do! (And charge so much up the A$$ I agree with everyone else who decided not to pay them visits). The mechanic I have chosen I know pretty well, he has worked on my few a couple of times and bought his own Q45 Bible because of that. I don't think Infiniti gives two thoughts about who they send to work on the older and MUCH less expensive (by KBB) cars

Thanks for the helpful suggestion superuber !

[Q451990]

Sounds like you're having fun cccpman. I agree that you're sort of SOL if you're taking it to a dealership that doesn't have anyone on staff that ever worked or trained on the G50 series of Q45. If you want a second opinion I'll be in the Denver area next week. We're staying in Colorado Springs, but we will be all over that area at some point. It's for an anniversary trip, so I may show up nad-less if I take time to go "talk Q" but I can give it a shot.

Try spraying some brake parts cleaner around if you can get it running again... that should help you track down the vacuum leak, if that's the problem.

Good luck!

Heath

[cccpman]

Heh I will give the repair a try, I would hate to see a Q owner nad-less on the anniversary trip

The car can run, but it would be a fight shifting into neutral when its not being given gas - and hitting the brakes in neutral while giving gas - screws with the mind a little and makes you drive with both feet :P. I was going to use soapy water to find the leak - brake parts cleaner works too and might give some better results.

I think there is also a little bit of a coolant leak, I heard some dripping but I doubt its from the cooling jackets as we spent alot of extra time making sure they wold be fine, a loose hose somewhere is probably that fix

Fun - yea, wont feel so bad about all these cuts and scrapes when the car runs again and is something to show. Thanks for the offer Q451990 but the military wants me this weekend and possibly a little longer so its a fix tomorrow or a big SOL. Maybe I will see you around though

[ScottJackson]

soapy water works for finding pressure leaks. Brake parts cleaner (or something else flammable) will find vacuum leaks. When the engine is running, spray little shots of it at suspected leak areas. If the idle suddenly speeds up, you've found a leak.

First time I did the plenum job it took about 5 hours to pull it and put it back on. Last time was about 3 hours. Next time should be around 1.5-2 hours since I left those very tedious and annoying little bolts out of the bottom of the plenum that attach the solid tube. Yeah, new o-rings for the runners are necessary. Tighten all those 10mm bolts in an even fashion from the inside toward the outside. Don't tighten them too much... they like to strip easily.

[cccpman]

all right so we agree the fact that it does start but dies quickly is because the cylinders are sucking in air because it lacks the proper seal?

[maxnix]

If you didn't replace all the gaskets including the lower runners, TB, IAC and EGR, you will have problems. Missed vacuum connections are a whole nother world.

If you replaced your VC gaskets and didn't replace the special rubber hold down washers, tighten in sequence per FSM, you will be back there again soon.

Q45tech's comments are precautionary, not condemning. Why he and I advocate study the FSM, TSB, then read all the posts (especially by him, sorry for all the fluff we've picked up over the last couple of years about dubs, bazookas, etc.) and then plan your actions.

[elwesso]

I definitely agree on the vacuum leak. Had this TWICE on Q's ive worked on, does about the same thing...

I dont think you will be any better off by sending it to a "mechanic" to figure it out. You already know whats going on, how everything works, and so on. I got lucky that the first time I did the plenum i didnt have to redo it... Last 2 times ive done the plenum ive had to pull it off a second time for vacuum leaks...

If you didnt replace the rubber donuts and slide your old metal rings inside them, its basically impossible for the plenum to seal properly...

Also, what about the gaskets? what did you replace? Did you use OEM hoses or did you make your own?

Feel free to call me sometime, ive been there DONE THAT when it comes to the plenum.... What would REALLY help, is like scott suggested, grab some brake parts cleaner and start spraying in certain areas where a leak could be... If the idle changes then thats where its at.

Now the key is finding the problem.

[cccpman]

Great thanks for all the responses and help guys - going to get started on this shortly and hopefully finished before end of day

[cccpman]

all right an update, there are two screws that seem stripped on the plenum - ideas on how to remove? I figure just something sticky put in my socket or a magnetic bit or something of that sort

[cccpman]

EDITED

Basically need to use a Tap and Die to be able to take the plenum off and put it back on. Going to order parts from Joe tomorrow because I checked with Infiniti and everything is 2-5 days away because nobody has any of the parts in stock

any tips on the Tap and Die? The mechanics in my unit all recommend I take this to somebody that has done it many times before because working with aluminum is nasty - however if I go slowly and make sure everything is straight I don't see any problems. Just have to figure out how this thing works...

Also, the tap and die set comes with all sorts of sizes, 40 pieces in all. I plan on going to the size that closest matches the current bolts - which means I will need new bolts. Can I just grab up some generic bolts or is there something really special about these?

Getting the bolts that are stripped in there out - how can that be done. Mechanics suggested drilling them out, or pulling but could not say which one would be a better bet. I opt for pulling so I don't jack too much up - just take a pair of vice grips or pliers and yank the SOB out? maybe apply a tacky material to the socket and attempted to use an upward force while unbolting?

Thanks
Modified by cccpman at 8:52 PM 8/16/2007

[3Q Jay]

i think the bolt dia is 6mm, but don't quote me. the thing about the upper plenum bolts is they have a shoulder specifically to keep you from over compressing the rubber outer rings. that and the large dia shank above the threaded portion help alighn the upper and lower runners.try to just chase the threads first with the (same size) tap. use some new special bolts (check with goody, i'm sure he can send you a few quickly off the parts car he just bought), and install them with a little thread sealer to keep them from backing out.i only torque the plenum bolts to 100 in-lb (8.3 ft-lb). loosen all bolts and finger install them all before you torque any of them.

[maxnix]

Be sure to use metric tap and die. Even a Craftwman will do the job on aluminum.

Have you condsidered Helicoil?

[goody90q45]

.....check with goody, i'm sure he can send you a few quickly off the parts car he just bought

cccpman- Check your email. I've got some bolts for you.

[cccpman]

Ok started to order in the parts needed - Head gasket for L+R, PCV Valves, EGR tube, PCV Hoses, what am I missing? Some people shot me emails earlier saying I was missing a 'donut shaped' seal - I dont think the head gaskets look anything like that but I do not have (nor did I) have anything donut shaped in the least. Im assuming they are talking about something similar to an O-ring - are there any parts im missing on my list that would be a good idea to grab?

[Q45tech]

Valve cover gaskets?

Head gaskets are usually never replaced unless the engine is totally trashed.

We just do so many reworks on owner, shops, and dealer repairs that it gets really old fixing the trash work standards and jury rigged non oem parts [hoses, screws, gaskets].

[cccpman]

ok so whats the donut shaped thing people were talking about?(Yes Q45Tech I do not know the name of the part I am talking about so it may be the valve cover gasket)

EDIT

Yea the '12 hours' of work that shops quoted ended up being 15, the only thing jacket up is a bolt thats broke off at the threading inside (just one) so im heading out to get a bore kit and fix that right up - right now it looks like everything else should be able to seal right back ok once I know what I need to replace

Sorry I may have been mislead in all these conversations - I have the metal ring that the tutorial said save, does that ring just use a thin flat gasket or is there a round rubber thing similar to an O ring (many sites list the metal ring AS the gasket)
Modified by cccpman at 10:52 AM 8/17/2007

[Q45tech]

The reuseable metal ring stiffens the always new rubber seal changed everytime the plenum is removed.

My first major mistake on my Q was a 1996 overtightening and shear of one of the plenum connection bolts.

[cccpman]

All right 15 out of 16 bolts repaired and tapped with great results to the same size, fits on well and easily will handle required torque. The last one was sheared off, I have to drill that bolt out tap, and then buy a new bolt (not sure what sort of special bolts are being sent... maybe use them if possible)

can somebody confirm if it is part number 14035P or 14034 that I am looking for (the gasket damn it the o-ring, the whatever it ends up being ) I have the metal part but not whatever the other one is (Thanks due to finally meeting somebody at the dealership willing to print me out some really nice diagrams with part identifiers on it)

Also, it did not take that long at all to remove the bolts (pliers, socket, and a flathead to give tension as they were torqued). 2 minutes each for the damaged 2and the normal few seconds for the other 15. Tapping was very fast, some of the bolts themselves were ever so slightly warped but the kit came with everything needed and it was all like new before long

just a wait on finding out what the rubber part is FOR SURE before I order it thinking ive got it and waste a week

Thanks a lot guys!

[superuber]

I am so glad it is working out for you! You see, what did I tell you.It's not hard. I'll let you in on a little secret. This car repair stuff is not as hard as folks think. As we can see from your story here. A little common sense and a great forum are all you need. Seems like you have both.

If people really knew how long some of this work really takes us mechanics would be hurting! Did a 99 civic axle last week. I've done hundreds. My tech timed me 3minutes 32 seconds-done, tire on, car off lift. I'm not bragging, just letting you know it's that easy. It's like any job, do it enough and you get good.

[cccpman]

yea but im still not out of s creek just yet. Now its just wait on parts time

[superuber]

I think you have things under control. Plus if you get in troublethese guys on here are the best in the country!

[3Q Jay]

the 8 large soft o-ring gaskets you want are 14032-60u01.

[Q451990]

I broke one of the plenum bolts off on my old Q too. Luckily it was one of the ones on the front... maybe #2 cylinder? I got lucky, because that runner's bolt hole actually went all the way through, so when I started drilling it out, the drill bit caught in the bolt and just turned it out of the bottom side. You might try finding something I've heard called an "easy out" - essentially you drill a small hole in to the bolt, then put this in, and when you turn it counter-clockwise it grabs the bolt and lets you turn it out.

Good luck!

Heath

[cccpman]

Thanks 3Q Jay!

Q451990 - Yes I have considered just getting it to catch and driving it out through the bottom. If not, 'easy out' sounds like a good solution, if not that a bore kit, if not that I will just drill it all out and tap a larger area for a bigger bolt (Ahh DIY, 10 solutions to one problem and it feels good cause you know each one could work just fine)

Cant thank you guys enough, it should be a few minutes of work getting that single bolt out and a few more tapping the same thread (if needed) or 45 minutes going one of the other routes... I plan on removing the plenum in preparation for parts and just sitting back and finding something to do all day for the next couple days (clean the engine with a nylon brush, re-clean leather in preparation for an attempt to repair maybe, shampoo carpet with a commercial shampooer? )

[elwesso]

I have an easy out and they work great for small bolts, not so much for large stuff....

[bullittandy]

Did a 99 civic axle last week. I've done hundreds. My tech timed me 3minutes 32 seconds-done, tire on, car off lift.

That's sick!!