Feedback on centrifugal supercharger ideas...

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MiniMan
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Ghettokracker71 wrote:Suggestion: Use a clutch-type blower. Just like an A/C pump where the pulley is magnectic,and when the unit has an electrical charge the A/C pump is driven,but when it doesn't, the pulley is just idle therefore no boost. If you want to save on gas for like a trip,or rev at the civic next to you....well,its just nice to have boost on a switch as opposed to always on.:)
Awesome idea, but I'm unsure if it'd be worth the money in this case as there won't be much boost down low. In any case, it's something to consider :D .

Gives me an idea though... anyone know how much horsepower it takes to drive the A/C in our Qs?

Corey


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rsiwicki
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Quote »custom piping (no big deal)....[/quote]

I have got one word for the above comment and no offense Wes...."Bull$hit!!!!!" --> Headers 5+weeks....custom piping (no big deal)...yeah right, that is what I thought...how hard can it be to bend 4 pipes on each bank into equal length. I am going to go to Votech and get a welding certificate and build the damn things myself next time.....Car now should be done on Saturday night they tell me.

Corey....I spoke with Ash a few weeks ago. He was leaving to go on a 6 week vacation with his family and his new born 2nd child. He said all is good with the car running and that when he returns from vacation he would be checking on NICO.

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elwesso
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LOL sorry RSI, i know thtas a touchy subject for you.....!

Time to invest in a NICO welder and mandrel bender... :)

MiniMan
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Well, the big names in centrifugal superchargers are Vortech, Procharger, Paxton and Powerdyne. So far I've read nothing on any of em... maybe HeavyDuty, Q45Tech or OTG would be able to give us a better idea of which brand to go with and why?

Good to hear about your CAD hookup. I should be able to do the bracket myself, but it'd be nice to have someone do up the piping.

IMO, I think JWT would be a great investment provided we can get a few of us together to have an ECU made. As HD has explained to me before, the problem with going with an FMU and manually tuning the timing is that an FMU doesn't know when you shift. So it'll run mucho rich while you're shifting, which equals mucho lag. That's how I understood it anywho :confused: .

Corey

MiniMan
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Ahahaha. You bring up a good point Rob... luckily they won't be in need of our cars to do these pipes! I can't believe it's taken so friggen long eh!

Thanks for the update on Ash. Good to hear he's gone on a nice long vacation but I can't wait til he gets back :) .

Corey

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The JWT ECU is mandatory. Spending all this money on parts and labor, you want the management of the system to be top notch. They have already developed a boost program for the VH. We could do dyno tuning there, and have them really get the maps down.

I'm down to be a guinea pig :)

MiniMan
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Here's a list of available superchargers for this setup. Don't have much knowledge of any of them... all that I know is I want a self contained SC! Should save a little time/mess/hassle.

Corey

MiniMan
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MiniMan wrote:Gives me an idea though... anyone know how much horsepower it takes to drive the A/C in our Qs?
As well, how many CFM can the system flow?

Corey

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QShip
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AZhitman wrote:
To whom shall I cut the check?

HeavyDuty
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Good Lord this thing got big overnight.

Again, no offense Wes, but (1) Custom piping is a huge undertaking. Now, if you're going non-aftercooled like AGM, then it's considerably less, but still time-consuming. Once one is made and all the interference issues related to the different models/trim levels is verified, you can make a jig & reproduce them at a reasonable cost.

(2) A mandrel bending machine (real one) is about $180,000-$250,000 with the fixtures required to do all the different possible piping diameters. (pricing reference from Dave at BentPipes.com who owns one)

You couldn't pay me to run an ATI (Procharger) or Powerdyne unit. Vortech/Paxton is now.....well....Vortech/Paxton. Same company albeit slightly different designs between the two.

Not in a million years would I run a self contained centrifugal charger. They stew in their own juices & run hot as a sum*****. The oil fed Vortech/Paxtons have much much longer intervals between rebuilds. ATI is a race blower, frequent rebuilds are expected. The only benefit of a self contained unit is a shorter installation time on account of the oil return line's requirement that it be plumbed into the oil pan.

For those not familiar, a "T" fitting is installed on the engine oil feed system that uses oil pressure from the engine and air pressure from the charger to force feed a mist of oil spray on the bearings inside the supercharger. Once it goes through the cycle, it drains towards the bottom of the charger & must be returned into the oiling system via the pan, NOTE: the return should be placed above the windage line on the pan, (above the oil level line when the engine is running). Otherwise the return oil can back up in the return line and cause problems inside the charger.

A standard FMU from Vortech, Paxton, etc *does* have issues when boost drops. They're great on the way up but when you shift they don't reduce the ratio of increased line pressure resulting in a horrid bog. Also, as Q45Tech mentioned, there's a pressure relief valve in the pump that won't allow more than 60 psi fuel rail pressure. That's good for maybe 4-6psi. (SWAG)

The Super FMU from Vortech is a bit better between shifts, Comptech also has a beautiful billet one. By the time you buy either of them, you're 1/2 way to a JWT boost program. Much better driveability and performance at all rpms, loads, boost levels. Always better if the car thinks it *came* with boost, like the JWT.

Hope that helps, I started this this morning & just now was able to finish it. ;)

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Seems like the eaton is the best setup... Offers real smooth linear accelration... I guess that's why they use them on most OEM applications.

one ton garage
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Random thoughts on the subj:

- The main reason Eaton style blowers are used on most OEM applications I believe has more to do with longevity, and long service intervals, which leads to overall lower costs vs. running a centrifugal blower. Not to say that centris are any better, because in all honesty, I personally would prefer an eaton, but this is a case where sometimes you gotta go with what you're limited to. And in this instance, the main limiting factor in the Q's engine bay is space... which is why trying to squeeze a centri blower in is much easier than mounting an eaton on top of the engine while still clearing the hood. Of course, that has been done with success, but it also required a custom manifold, which again is a lot more work for the layman to perform (and something I personally wanted to avoid for my own car)

- I usually am never a proponent of running a blow-through MAF in most forced induction applications, and especially with Nissan MAFs in particular because they can be very finnicky... but this is also another case where circumstances sort of end up dictating what you do. With the blower mounted on the opposite side of the engine bay from the stock MAF position, it would be a bear to relocate all the way across the engine to be used in a draw through setup (although I suppose you could run a crossover pipe across the back side of the radiator like the charge pipe in my graphic to draw air in from the left side engine bay). Also, I believe that running a supercharger (along with a well-plumbed catch can system) spews much less oil into the intake tract as most turbo setups...not 100% sure on this because my experience lies mostly only with turbos, where my *main* concern with running a blow through MAF is due to oil deposit in the intake mucking up the MAF element. It would appear that enough blown vehicles run blow through MAFs that I am inclined to believe that it is an acceptable method of mounting the meter, but I would also take the extra step and plumb in a nice catch can just in case. Oh yah, and as long as you run your blow off valve before the MAF (within reasonable distance before it... going too close might still cause some turbulence which will confuse, which is why in my diagram, I had planned to mount the bov on the intake tank of the ic instead of the outlet tank), you can get away with routing the bov to atmosphere, because any compressed air loss has not yet been metered by the MAF, and thus, will not make the engine stumble during release. Yes, the added benefit is that you'll have a noticable bov pssssh sound, which would just be kinda rad to hear coming from a big luxury sedan. >HAHAHA<

- I'm really surprised at the amount of interest generated here. Good to see that all you guys are enthusiastic about performance. I'm actually now sort of considering continuing playing around with the supercharger plans to see what else I can learn along the way and hopefully maybe pass along the info to you guys. AGM's setup is pretty dang bad ***, and I love the way it looks very OEM. I was originally considering running all black couplings, wrinkle black powdercoat on all the piping, scuffing up the blower with scotchbrite (to eliminate the shine), and make vacuum formed ABS plastic "shrouds" to cover the filter and intercooler... all for that OEM look also. I've been rebudgeting my buildup plans for my other motor, so I can hopefully redirect some funds back into the "supercharging the Q for the heck of it" project. I've luckily got access to a CNC machine shop and a spare Vortech V5 head unit to mock things up and get the hard part-mounting the sc-done with. Once that's done, the rest usually falls into place. I would love to see other people trying things out on their own cars also though, and sharing ideas, hints, tips, what-have-you on here so that we can all benefit from the knowledge.

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The Eaton as modified by Magnuson has a life [between rebuilds] suitable for oem applications [50-75,000 miles]. Why Mercedes uses electric clutches to reduce running hours and cruise idle drag [turning HP losses].

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one ton garage wrote:Random thoughts on the subj:

- It would appear that enough blown vehicles run blow through MAFs that I am inclined to believe that it is an acceptable method of mounting the meter, Oh yah, and as long as you run your blow off valve before the MAF (within reasonable distance before it... going too close might still cause some turbulence which will confuse, which is why in my diagram, I had planned to mount the bov on the intake tank of the ic instead of the outlet tank), you can get away with routing the bov to atmosphere, because any compressed air loss has not yet been metered by the MAF, and thus, will not make the engine stumble during release. Yes, the added benefit is that you'll have a noticable bov pssssh sound, which would just be kinda rad to hear coming from a big luxury sedan. >HAHAHA<


Three quick opinions, not to be argumenative.

If the programming is for use with a blow through, then yes. I believe the JWT setup would work better in that the mass of air drawn in would be measured & programmed accordingly. I just don't care for blow throughs on street cars, IMHO. Way more trouble than it's worth. The time to correctly lengthen the wires or mount the s/c inlet remotely using the stock harness would be offset by driveability issues of blowing through a meter that doesn't recognize pressure nor know what to do with it without reprogramming, which I'm sure JWT did not nor will not do since they already have a draw through boost program.

I always recirculate the blow off valve back into the system *after* the MAF (if it's a MAF system, if it's Speed Density, then no recirculation needed) since it's metered air that's known to be in the system. But then again as you stated, if you're running blow through, it woudn't know it was there & wouldn't care.

An automatic car won't have the psssh between shifts. Only when you're in the gas & let off to slow down, even then it's very faint. A recirculated BOV will make the same faint sound.

An Eaton is a better choice for someone that wants extended periods between teardown/rebuild.

Also, someone mentioned the difference in power gain with Eaton, Whipple vs Centrifugal (Turbo on a Stick).

The positive displacement is instant on but yes, peters out at the top end.

The Centri makes more power than stock down low, but more than makes up for it in the top end.

As AGM posted once, he chose the Centri for top end power then changed the pulley diameter for faster spool up which kinda offset low end lack of gain.

He was looking for something he could "grow into" as his mods progressed. The Centri was a better choice for that reason.

MiniMan
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Hrrmm, I'm curious if the V5 will be large enough to make sufficient power increases at low psi. I'm unsure which model yours is OTG, but it either flows 700cfm or 800cfm and can make 474hp or 575hp. HeavyDuty, would you mind keying in here?

The Q does need help down low... but if you're going to be racing someone, where will you spend the majority of the race? Chances are not under 3k rpms. Besides, even with the Eaton blower, it wouldn't have kicked in much sooner than the centrifugal (2500-3000rpms vs 2200)... that is unless you want you fuel economy to go to shat :( .

Corey

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All I can say the Eaton is nice setp with V8s..

The XJR is a freight train in 1st gear, but the problem is the XJs v8 isn't paticularly high revving, and that combined with the eatons lack of high end prowess, makes for a boring high rpm car...

It would seem the combo of the eaton and the high revving VH would be a nice combo.. but i hate the idea of that eaton sitting on top of the engine..

Someone please come up with something.. I want forced induction so bad!

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I don't know much about this low end vs. high end stuff, but I would personally want high end power and use my 4.08 for the low end off the line torque that I need. I would think that boosting low end power would just add to more wheel slippage off the line making it harder to get a good clean launch. I would much rather have the power kick in when I am at 10-15mph where the increase in power should be smooth and wheel slippage should not be a factor at this velocity. The 4.08 should provide any gaps for off the line power until the high end power kicks in. This is just my opinion as others have already said the 4.08 causes great wheel slippage impacting 0-60 ET's. the XJR diff ratio is in the low 3.xx's if not high 2.xx's (i think) and the launch off the line is an easy tire burning launch so with our stock 3.54 diffs, the extra low end boost, and about 100rwhp more than the XJR this setup would make clean launches all that much more difficult, IMO.

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^ This is a great point to consider....

When you recall my previous post about the driveability of the Q on stock tires and 7 lbs of boost, that should make the top-end vs bottom-end question all the more important.

Even if we DID have a surplus of bottom end grunt, the Q is ill-equipped to put it to the ground... Also, that's where the weak point [transmission] is most easily damaged....

Anyone ever do business with Keith Brantley?

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I couldn't agree more. The XJR is a monster off the line.. If you floor it with the tcs off, it's wheel spin massive..

The Q with a 4.08 would be unreal. I prefer more high end power anyway, it would really match the engine well..

MiniMan
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I think this is a project I'm willing to take up once I get my car. I wouldn't mind some advice though, as far as which Vortech/Paxton supercharger to use... taking into account our horsepower goals, etc. I wouldn't want to run any more than 7psi aftercooled or 6 psi non-aftercooled.

I'm going to fiddle around with the AC once I get down to Vegas. Due to Q45Tech's feedback, I doubt she'd take more than 10hp tops to run (it's always good to account for more losses), and should be able to provide a much cooler intake charge... At least I hope... (this is where some temp ghetto rigging comes in).

Corey

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rsiwicki
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the guys who just got done building my headers specialize in SC and turbos on car. He asked me when I was ready to do a SC for my car and if anybody else has built a kit for Q. I told him Thomas Knight and he knows him really well he said and can work with him here from Miami on doing a SC for my car. He also suggested a Vortec vs. Eaton for the high vs. low performance. This will be a much later project for me.

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Very interesting RSI. I wish I was that close to Thomas and this guy, I'd definetely be down for guinea pig status.

MiniMan
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Ryan/Rob, does Thomas do centrifugal superchargers? Might be worthwhile to look into...

Corey

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Sorry, been offline for a couple of days.

MiniMan, V5, but what trim?

Rsiwicki, I agree with your postulation. When I nail the throttle in my JWT ECU, TCU, POP (only) equipped 91, it hops sometimes, other times it just blows the tires off.

The good thing about a Centri is "what you said", it allows you to get moving, then once underway pins you in the seat like the big friendly hand of God, with gentle but ever steadily increasing pressure.

Then, like sex, when it gets real good.....it's over. Thankfully the next gear doesn't require a sandwich or a smoke in between.

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HD - Call Andy!

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Will do, he called me & left a message.

Sheeeeiiittttyyy week.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread. :D

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rsiwicki
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Quote »Then, like sex, when it gets real good.....it's over. Thankfully the next gear doesn't require a sandwich or a smoke in between.[/quote]

LOL!!!!!

MiniMan
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HeavyDuty wrote:MiniMan, V5, but what trim?

Then, like sex, when it gets real good.....it's over. Thankfully the next gear doesn't require a sandwich or a smoke in between.
LMAO. Ahahahahaha... effin awesome HD :D .

I'd definitely like to go with a supercharger rated over 600hp... I wouldn't want anything smaller. I know with intake and exhaust mods, running 7-8psi aftercooled it's possible to meet or exceed this rating with a centrifugal. Heavy, maybe you could give me some feedback on this issue? The superchargers that are around what I'm looking for (from Vortech) include:

VORTECH V-1 S-TRIM SUPERCHARGERVORTECH V-2 SQ SC-TRIM SUPERCHARGERVORTECH V-2 SQ (Super Quiet) SUPERCHARGER

A V-5 in the "G-Trim" doesn't seam too far off I suppose... hopefully that's what OTG's 'charger is.

Corey

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As Vortech model codes go, anything with a Q in it means helical cut or (Q)uiet gears.

The non-Q straight cut gears are *horrible* on a street car, the non-Q compressors can be heard a block away in the middle of the day kinda "WELCOME TO TACO BE......SIR CAN YOU PLEASE TURN OFF YOUR CAR?!?!?!" way.

I have extensively driven a 600+ hp Ford 383 with a straight cut T trim. Good for fending off street races, nobody wants any of that action, but also attracts attention from the local constable at idle.

The V5 G Trim is what they use in the 99-00 Civic Si, on our car it was good for 246fwhp/169tq aftercooled @ 8 psi, 288fwhp/190tq aftercooled at 10psi. But that's 8250rpm & 1.6 liter DOHC VTEC.

Just call Vortech @ 805-247-0226 & they can make a suggestion based on max boost desired, max impeller speed, charger pulley diameter (based on crank pulley diameter). Too small & it will generate too much heat at higher rpm's, too big & it won't turn on until you're too high in the rpm band to enjoy much boost time.

A V-2 SQ would be my guess, too. That's what is used on 5.0 & 4.6 Mustang apps. (for like displacement & rpm).

Figure out which way you want to mount it so that you get the rotation correct. 5.0's are clockwise (I think), 4.6's are counter because they're mounted reverse. If you find a 5.0 compressor will work, that would be great in that they are plentiful used & Vortech will give you a core credit for an upgrade or rebuild one providing it's not destroyed.

AGM's posts would help you guys get farther, faster in your quest. His car is a beast & he did *a lot* of research.

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Thanks HD. Good advice on looking up some of AGMs old posts...
AGM wrote:The intake temperature on my Vortech Supercharger set up is 110 degrees celcius, which is too high.

I am building a air to water intercooler using the following parts

Heat Exchanger - SETRABWater Pump - DAVIES CRAIGIntercooler - LAMINOVA

I want to chill the water further using a "FLATPLATE" refigerant to water heat exchanger, by placing it between the SETRAB and the LAMINOVA and connecting it to the existing A/C system.

It is similar to concept in the Jaguar for preventing the fuel vapourising ie cars A/C cools the fuel

Regards

AGM


His problem was finding a place for everything to go... this will be something I'll look into at a later date, when I have my car. It appears once all was said and done he managed to squeeze everything in.

Anywho, I believe he ended up going with an aquamist system and then added two intercoolers in later. Once he added the first intercooler in I believe he also used the aquamist system then to cool the heat exchanger (smart thinkin). Here's the full post:
AGM wrote:I am running a water to air intercooler. With the intake temp significantly reduced, I found little benefit in the water injection as I found that cold 'dry' air gave superior performance to cold 'wet' air.

For this reason I never actually tried the 50/50 water isopropyl alcohol mix as I only got as far as water only.

So not to waste the Aquamist system, I have reused it in a different way. I am using it as a spray bar on the front mounted heat exchanger, to increase the cooling due to the evaporation process.

I can't remember the drop in intake temps of the top of my head, but everyone involved with the car has never seen such temp drops with such low boost lag/drop.

I have ordered a second intercooler that should drop the intake temp even more, as it will use water chilled from the cars A/C

The set up sounds quite complex, but in a nut shell. The primary intercooler runs all the time with a high water flow as a traditional water/air intercooler. ie evaporation coolls the water, which cools the air.

The second additional will only operates (in addition to the primary intercooler and at the same time) when the cars A/C is on and has a low water flow rate so that it gets chilled through an in line refrigerant heat exchanger. ie refrigerant chills the water which chills the air.

Won't get the second intercooler till February, so don't know if the theory will work yet.

My goal is to be able to hold 10psi boost with minimum rise above ambient temp.

I can go below ambient my adding dry ice to the water holder in the boot, but I am setting up the car as a daily driver, so I don't have to fill up with ice to cool the intake temp ect.

Regards

AGM


Another interesting idea that came up in my readings was the use of a Peltier device. No one followed up on this idea. Seams logical however. I read of these devices previously when I was overclocking my computer... didn't follow up on one though. I went with the traditional screaming fast fan pumping XXX CFM using XXX jigawatts from the mainframe.

Here is a much later post from AGM:
AGM wrote:As I have stated on this forum before, I am of the opinion that there is no one perfect way to introduce forced induction into an engine.

Positive displacement is great for instant torque and turbo is great for high end power.

Everyones opinion is different, but for what it is worth, my opinion is that the VH45DE has heaps of top end performance that you can never use in a residential area. MY goal was to simply bring up the torque level at the bottom end.

I went for a centrifugal Supercharger because I wanted to keep the engine bay as origional looking as possible. I love the infiniti logo on the plenum chamber.

Knowing the limitations of a Centrifugal Supercharger, I have an oversized crankshaft pulley and am overdriving the Supercharger so that it brings on the boost early. I have had to speed limited the engine so that the Supercharger does not overpsin. The Centrifual Supercharger has a linear boost curve that is not quite as exciting as a turbo, but I am happy with the lower down boost, due to how I have set this car up.

I have tried to set up the car somewhere between a Positive displacement Supercharger and a turbo. It might not be everyones choice, but I am very happy with it.

I am using a Laminova water to air intercooler in a custom aluminium housing and am toying around with introducing a second completley seperate custom Setrab water to air intercooler so that In effect I will have two water to air intercoolers.

Regards

AGM


Good info, and good advice HD. Only one question for you what is the crank pulley diameter or if you are able to calculate it, the charger pulley diameter...

The V-2 in the Super Quiet trim seams to be a good choice. I'll call Vortech once I find out out the necessary details.

I wonder what size supercharger AGM is using?! Seams small... he's still putting out some GOOD power with it though (close to 500?).

Corey


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