Father takes child to work, causes scandal despite no harm done.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Uhhh ... I know they drop the ball and make mistakes. That is where the stress comes from. What I meant was, they are not supposed to put themselves in situations where they might drop the ball.

They are required to do their best all the time, and their best does not mean knowingly putting the responsibility onto a kids shoulders.

Z

Responsibility of what? Do stretch the surgeon analogy, the dad told his kid to tell the patient what organ they were going to remove while standing right next to him.

[RCA]

Responsibility of what? Do stretch the surgeon analogy, the dad told his kid to tell the patient what organ they were going to remove while standing right next to him.

So you don't find anything wrong with that? Remember the nature of children...

You wouldn't mind the surgeons son hanging over you while his dad does his work? IDK about you but no thanks.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

So you don't find anything wrong with that? Remember the nature of children...

You wouldn't mind the surgeons son hanging over you while his dad does his work? IDK about you but no thanks.

If sterilization isn't an issue (I don't want some rugrat touching my squishy parts), and the kid did nothing more complex then tell me that my appendix needed to be removed, then sure.

It's not like the father let his kid run around the OR knocking carts over.

[Dattebayo]

Exactly who's life is at stake because you told someone to contact someone else?

[Dittoz7]

Real Life, Serious Business Bro.

People Swear Pilots Have Seconds After The Command To Respond/Act.

This Is Talking People.Kids Have Being Talking Since What? 2 Years Of Age?

Lets Say He's 10, He's Practicing This "Skill" For 8 Years.

If A Surgeons Kid Has Been Working On Patients For 8 Years, With His Dad Next To Him.

I'd Have No Problem.

Again It's Not Like The Kid Was Actually Directing Traffic, He Was Just Saying What His Dad Was Saying.

I Better Start Buying Vagisil Stocks.

[hannibal]

The kid was handing the planes off from the tower to the departure controller. The planes were most definitely in the air like Charlie suggested. Maybe ATC trainees are allowed to work under the supervision of a senior guy without a license, but I'll bet only after hours of on the ground training.

Its not as bad as a pilot letting his kid fly the plane, but he should have known better to let his kid communicate with active planes. Simple, routine procedures but only ATCs are authorized to do them.

My friend flies for Delta regional carrier. Cant wait to hear his thoughts...

Honestly, I didnt think much of basic ATCs duties til I listened to the recorder from that plane that ditched in the Hudson. It went from a normal takeoff to an emergency in an instant, and the ATC was searching his brain to find a safe place for that disabled plane to land. Note two minutes passed from the pilot declaring an emergency til he had exhausted his options and decided to land in the river. In the meantime, the ATC had tried to get him to two different runways at LGA and contacted another airport to clear him there.

Transcripthttp://www.planecrashinfo.com/cvr090115.htm

MP3http://www.planecrashinfo.com/MP3s/ratc1549.mp3

[hannibal]

Exactly who's life is at stake because you told someone to contact someone else?

Its not that the kid talking created a life threatening situation. Lives are at risk whenever a plane is loaded with passengers. Its the ATC's job to monitor and be ready to respond to the any of the random things that could happen. Having the kid on the mic reduces the time it takes to react and respond. Sure, only a second or two, but no delay is acceptable if something were to happen.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Its not as bad as a pilot letting his kid fly the plane, but he should have known better to let his kid communicate with active planes.

Having the kid on the mic reduces the time it takes to react and respond. Sure, only a second or two, but no delay is acceptable if something were to happen.

Counterpoint: Plane have two sets of controls. I know of private pilots that let their kids ride shotgun and have some "stick time."

Similarly, if the dad also had a mike plugged in, there's no delay. Emergency goes down, the father is right there. Especially if the father was still in his seat and hot mike'd.

[RCA]

Transcripthttp://www.planecrashinfo.com/cvr090115.htm

MP3http://www.planecrashinfo.com/MP3s/ratc1549.mp3

There was video made with a CGI remake of the entire flight and hit had instrements on screen and time all while the conversation and subtitles were present...

EPIC video...

If sterilization isn't an issue (I don't want some rugrat touching my squishy parts), and the kid did nothing more complex then tell me that my appendix needed to be removed, then sure.

It's not like the father let his kid run around the OR knocking carts over.

Exactly who's life is at stake because you told someone to contact someone else?

You guys are discussing the repercussions of what happened, but I am disscussing what could of happened. I just wouldn't put people's lives in the hand of a youngin. What if his father took his eyes off his son for a second and his kid **__INSERT ACTION HERE__**. Not only that but would you want your air traffic controller to lose focus for any reason?

Sure maybe his kid is an absoulte saint and conducts him self like a professional, but what about the next guys kid?

It just isn't the best place for kids...

I would love to see your reactions if something catastrophic happend...

[Urabus GodofTraction]

There was video made with a CGI remake of the entire flight and hit had instrements on screen and time all while the conversation and subtitles were present...

EPIC video...

You guys are discussing the repercussions of what happened, but I am disscussing what could of happened. I just wouldn't put people's lives in the hand of a youngin. What if his father took his eyes off his son for a second and his kid **__INSERT ACTION HERE__**. Not only that but would you want your air traffic controller to lose focus for any reason?

Sure maybe his kid is an absoulte saint and conducts him self like a professional, but what about the next guys kid?

It just isn't the best place for kids...

I would love to see your reactions if something catastrophic happend...

So your issue is now the kid being in the tower to begin with? Yeah, he might accidentally press the "tell all of the planes to collide" button...

Best place for kids? No. Really wise choice on the father's part? No. Potential apocalypse worthy of getting fired over? No.

[PoorManQ45]

You sounded like PMQ in that post.

I stayed out of this one until you brought me in

I see no harm it what occurred.

Your examples are extremes of what could occur. "Lets give the kid a gun and tell him to shoot at criminals". Yeah, that's really an equivalent scenario

[PoorManQ45]

To stretch the surgeon analogy, you are saying that maybe it is okay for the kid not to make the cut, but he can tell the nurse to hand stuff to his dad, the surgeon.

Z

No, the proper comparison would be an overseeing Doctor's kid being present in the overlooking area. When the surgery is over the Kid says, "Good job Doctor. You did great!"

[RCA]

So your issue is now the kid being in the tower to begin with? Yeah, he might accidentally press the "tell all of the planes to collide" button...

Best place for kids? No. Really wise choice on the father's part? No. Potential apocalypse worthy of getting fired over? No.

Well at the same time I don't think the punishment is death either...

He needs to be disciplined but he shouldn't lose his job. But to be honest, I would never think the FAA would need to make a rule excluding children from the work place, I would assume that it would be common sense. So all in all, because of this guy needs to be disciplined but nothing to serious, but the next person to do it should be penalized for it. Having a child at works makes your employee share his or her attention so if your doing paper work, not a problem. You will just end up doing them slower, but an air traffic controller!?

It just isn't the type of job where you can afford to have kids around.

[AZhitman]

When any of you have a job that involves protecting an agency from unnecessary risk, come let me know.

Until then, a bunch of very bright people in the industry have pointed out the inappropriateness of this.

For those who say, "Eh, it's no big deal"... tell my WHY it's so important to defend this lapse in judgment? Are we afraid of depriving the kid?

Laws and rules are there for a reason. If I'm on that plane, keep that snot-nosed little ****er OUT of the Control Tower.

People F stuff up bad enough without having a goddam kid up in there.

[PoorManQ45]

For those who say, "Eh, it's no big deal"... tell my WHY it's so important to defend this lapse in judgment? Are we afraid of depriving the kid?

Invalid question is invalid.

You guys are the ones looking to rope this guy up. You must defend your point.

When you bring up an issue with an event that occurred you can not say "prove me wrong". It is on you to provide information to support your thoughts on the subject.

*edit* The only information that I saw provided so far is that there are regulations in place. Everything else is conjecture.

[AZhitman]

Counterpoint: Plane have two sets of controls. I know of private pilots that let their kids ride shotgun and have some "stick time."

Weak. Especially from you.

Private pilots aren't responsible for the lives of the public.

And they're violating FAA reg's, which I hope you're not defending.

Similarly, if the dad also had a mike plugged in, there's no delay. Emergency goes down, the father is right there. Especially if the father was still in his seat and hot mike'd.

So, let's let drunks in the Tower. Maybe a deaf guy. Or a waterhead with Tourette's. Why not? I mean, SOMEONE can bail them out.



Best practices dictate (nay, DEMAND) that you pursue due diligence in eliminating ALL potential for risk in all procedures.

Reminds me of the fat b**** down the street who thinks it's cute to put her 4-year old on her lap on MY street and let him drive her beatass Dodge Ram. I swear to God, I hope that little turd hits a parked car, busts his nose wide open on the steering wheel, and gets the police and CPS called JUST so she'll pull her head outta her lard a$$.

The permissive, laissez faire attitude is appalling.

[PoorManQ45]

Reminds me of the fat b**** down the street who thinks it's cute to put her 4-year old on her lap on MY street and let him drive her beatass Dodge Ram. I swear to God, I hope that little turd hits a parked car, busts his nose wide open on the steering wheel, and gets the police and CPS called JUST so she'll pull her head outta her lard a$$.

[nismofly]

For the record I went to school for ATC and I'm waiting for an assignment to start the actual FAA on the job training portion...I'll give you more details if you want.

Similarly, if the dad also had a mike plugged in, there's no delay. Emergency goes down, the father is right there. Especially if the father was still in his seat and hot mike'd.

This should be the case, at least I hope...until a trainee is certified in a position he has an instructor watching over him like a hawk at all times. The instructor has his own headset, plugged in so hes listening to all actions. If at any time the instructor feels the need to overrule the trainee, he simply keys his mike, the trainee gets cutoff and muted, and the instructor is in total command. My professor at school can tell you stories that would blow your mind about preventing accidents caused by simple errors from trainees.

That said, I personally still question what in hell they were thinking. When an emergency occurs everyone needs to be on their toes, sharp as they've ever been, and this could've prevented split second decisions from being made in time to prevent something serious.

For the most part there's a system in place at each facility to make things worth *relatively* smoothly. To someone on a tour it probably looks like controlled chaos, but there is a science to it. The absolute key moments are when emergencies/accidents occur, and those don't get scheduled in advance, that's why you need to be ready for anything, anytime, anywhere when working this job.

Charileo you fly military I'm assuming?

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Weak. Especially from you.

Private pilots aren't responsible for the lives of the public.

Oh yeah sure, because a private plane that crashes into a house doesn't kill anyone...

ATC makes a million f***ups a day. Many are worse that some father putting a smile on his kid's face by having him tell a pilot to push a button on a radio.

So, let's let drunks in the Tower. Maybe a deaf guy. Or a waterhead with Tourette's. Why not? I mean, SOMEONE can bail them out.

Sure. Why the hell not. If you're going to be totally stupid with your analogies, you could put Micheal J. Fox ducttaped to a wolverine up there and if the controller has a mike and a radar scope I'd fly it.

Charileo you fly military I'm assuming?

You'd assume correctly.

[AZhitman]

Invalid question is invalid.

You guys are the ones looking to rope this guy up. You must defend your point.

When you bring up an issue with an event that occurred you can not say "prove me wrong". It is on you to provide information to support your thoughts on the subject.

*edit* The only information that I saw provided so far is that there are regulations in place. Everything else is conjecture.

You should have learned by now that debating from emotion leaves you vulnerable to getting your d*** slammed in the doorjamb.

Prepare to be invalidated yet again.

HE violated policies, regulations, and best practices. So, NO we're not the ones who need to defend our position, as we're not accused of anything.

Read carefully:

The DEFAULT action in this instance is the implementation of the consequences set forth in statute in the jurisdiction in which the incident occurred.

YOUR function, in order to avoid the default action, is to convince us (the prosecution) WHY we should set aside established case law for this supposedly "special" case.

I'm pretty sure that shunt in the back of your head is clogged.

[AZhitman]

Oh yeah sure, because a private plane that crashes into a house doesn't kill anyone... .

Thank you for reinforcing my position that the private pilot is an idiot and a selfish a$$, and violates FAA rules.

ATC makes a million f***ups a day. Many are worse that some father putting a smile on his kid's face by having him tell a pilot to push a button on a radio.

That's no defense for allowing yet another level of distraction / incompetence / lax oversight, and you know it.

Pilots screw up every day too. Doesn't mean we're gonna look the other way when one flies intoxicated.

Don't like the rules? Change them. I didn't enact them.

Take the damn kid out for ice cream if you're so desperate to make him smile.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Thank you for reinforcing my position that the private pilot is an idiot and a selfish a$$, and violates FAA rules.

Unless said pilot is a CFI... To be VERY PMQish, what if the controller was certified as an instructor?

That's no defense for allowing yet another level of distraction / incompetence / lax oversight, and you know it.

Pilots screw up every day too. Doesn't mean we're gonna look the other way when one flies intoxicated.

Don't like the rules? Change them. I didn't enact them.

Take the damn kid out for ice cream if you're so desperate to make him smile.

Your scope of incident (I just made that up, feel free to use it later) is way off in this case, and that's what I'm driving at. Drunk pilots? HUGE deal. Little kid telling a plane to contact departure? Small deal. Now, if the kid had said something like "for traffic, turn right heading 130 and climb to 3400ft," now that's risky business.

I just don't think the father should be fired over a minor lapse in judgment. Slap him on the wrist, whatever.

[C-Kwik]

I'll just say this:

"Its all fun and games until someone gets hurt."

Did something go wrong? Nope. But how different would your opinion be if it did?

[Jesda]

If we banned kids, we wouldn't have this problem.

[krash]

I'll just say this:

"Its all fun and games until someone gets hurt."

"Then its hilarious."

I think I'm with charlieo on this one. I'm not saying that the dad did nothing wrong, but the situation seems like its been blown out of proportion.

Now, if the kid had said something like "for traffic, turn right heading 130 and climb to 3400ft," now that's risky business.

Exactly what I was thinking. The dad did break protocol, which of course needs a consequence, but I don't think firing him is the right consequence.

Although, I do see why people would suggest firing him because of all the "what-ifs" that could have happened. Then again, the father isn't an idiot. He has lives on HIS hands, HE is the expert. If he, with all of his knowledge and experience, thought it was okay to let his kid relay a simple command, then I wouldn't feel unsafe at all.

[AZhitman]

You guys are jumping the gun.

I'm responding to all the permissive, "let it be" comments from people who think it's no big deal".

It IS a big deal, and we've already established that.

This isn't about what sort of punishment should be appropriate, because that's for his employer and the FAA to determine.

what if the controller was certified as an instructor?

Then he'd lose his Instructor Cert, because his "student" is not of age, nor is he enrolled as a student. You're way too smart to be asking PMQ-ish questions like that.

[szh]

If we banned kids, we wouldn't have this problem.

You must like the Mark Twain school of raising kids philosophy!

Z

[Chaotic_Warlord]

ATC is a heavily FAA controlled career, while I see all of you guys' points you are all forgetting something very important, his supervisors. I don't see a problem with what is showed in the video especially since you can hear the dad on the air with the kid. Obviously if this guys' boss didn't have a problem with him bringing his kid to work then it shouldn't be an issue.

Greg, as far as Police reference goes, I don't see any real harm with that either. As long as you do proper parenting and teach your kids proper safety practices like your supposed to what's the harm. I'm not saying take him out on a bank robbery call, but if your in Traffic division there are no real risks (no more than driving him to school) with letting him hit the lights and siren, and watch you write the ticket. Hell with proper gun safety their is no harm in taking him to the range to fire your service pistol either.

Do we even have an age for this kid? Maybe he's 5, maybe he's 12, who knows. I understand the risk involved, I was installing life safety systems before I got laid off and if I had a kid I'd probably bring him on the job site and let them wire up a couple of things, I'd be right there instructing them what to do which is what this guy was doing, the kid was just following his dads instructions word for word.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't bring a kid regardless of their age to just any job, I wouldn't take them out to a bomb site and let them control the robot, I wouldn't take them out on an oil rig and let them be a roghneck for a day. Had this kid just been some random kid on a school tour who picked up a headset and started giving directions then yeah I'd have a problem, but it was some guys son who wanted to see what daddy does, and daddy allowed him to give direction to a couple of planes by telling him what to do and say and being right there next to him.

If you guys want to b**** about the could have, should have, would haves then feel free, but this was obviously a one time thing that we obviously don't know exactly the full story since we weren't there so why debate about it this intently. Nothing happened, kid had fun for a day and possibly has a new found respect for daddy and a new desire on what they want to be when they grow up, what's the harm, no harm there.

[AZhitman]

Again, it all sounds soooo sweet and innocent, I can hear the birds chirping and the fairies flitting about...

My role is to mitigate risk. I investigate employee misconduct, fraud, and all other internal affairs... My job is to keep our agency OFF the front page of the paper, our employees OUT of court, and our HR staff out of Personnel Board hearings.

Sorry, but we live in a litigious society. The "what if's" are important.

IF there had been an incident, especially one where people were injured or lives were lost, EVEN if there was no direct correlation to his presence in the tower, the lawsuits filed by the families of the casualties could EASILY put an entire airline out of business.

WHY?

Because some a$$ decided the rules don't apply to him?

He's a selfish moron, and his kid is no better off than the day prior.

Fine, don't fire him, I don't give a damn. That's not my point.

But the whole "What's the big deal" attitude is repulsive.

He broke the law. He violated FAA rules. He jeopardized public safety (whether you believe it or not). He overstepped his authority. He exposed his co-workers and other pilots to unnecessary risk. These are facts, like it or not.

[Dattebayo]

Sorry, but we live in a litigious society. The "what if's" are important.

I've heard you take both sides on that issue now. I give up.