Father takes child to work, causes scandal despite no harm done.

[OriginalWheelman]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8547875.stm

US officials are investigating how a child was apparently allowed to direct planes at New York's JFK airport - one of the country's busiest.

The probe comes after an audiotape caught the boy directing several pilots preparing for take-off last month.

In one exchange, the boy is heard saying: "JetBlue 171 contact departure." The pilot responds: "Over to departure JetBlue 171, awesome job."

The child - whose age is unknown - was reportedly under adult supervision.

The adult was apparently his father - a certified air traffic controller.

The adult is later heard saying with a laugh: "That's what you get, guys, when the kids are out of school."

The incident happened on 17 February, when many New York pupils were on a week-long break.

The names of the child and the adult on the audiotape were not immediately known.

'Not indicative' incident

The Federal Aviation Administration said in a statement: "Pending the outcome of our investigation, the employees involved in this incident are not controlling air traffic.

"This behaviour is not acceptable and does not demonstrate the kind of professionalism expected from all FAA employees."

The agency did not give any further details.

The National Air Traffic Controllers Association said the incident was "not indicative of the highest professional standards that controllers set for themselves and exceed each and every day in the advancement of aviation safely".

Where is the problem here? The kid just spoke for his father on the radio. The kid surely had a great time, and seems to have done a fine job as nothing bad happened. When I was a kid I was fortunate enough to be able to go to work with my father. I doubt I would be the person I am today without standing in that Shell garage when I was 3 passing my Dad wrenches between going along on service calls in the tow truck. I guess my point is, if this father is disciplined for this, I'll be sadly disapointed.

[Dire91]

If the slightest thing goes wrong in an airport everyone goes nuts now because of 9/11. You're exactly right, the damn father was doing his job and all the kid was doing was speaking on the radio, so stupid.

[numbnuts240]

life isn't allowed to be enjoyable anymore.

[USMCgetsome]

come on guys. The Faa is serious business. Those guys have a highly responsible and stressful job. Besides there are rules and regulations that have must abide by. I say he should be penalized but not harshly.

[szh]

Unfortunately, the difference between this and most (not all, of course) other "children helping their father at work" kind of situations is that the outcome of a mistake can be quite deadly.

In the room? Sure. An enjoyable moment!

But the kid should NOT have been directing pilots in any way shape or form at all.

Z

[93coupe]

It is not like the father worked at on Oreo plant and let him stuff cookies. He directs planes with tons of passengers. That is serious business with great responsibility. Anyone that doesn't think this is a big deal needs to rethink it.

I know I would not be happy if I were on a plane while some little kid was directing air traffic.

[etschell]

there wouldnt be a problem except the kid is none other than smallsoma obama jin lamma. didnt you hear his thick Arabic accent??

[bluepillow]

Would you let your kid perform surgery on a patient? I hope not..

[Speedy7_7]

Freak out a little more guys, good god, it seems that the pilots were informed that the kid was with his dad. So the kid sent out a few radio calls with his dad telling him what to do? What is the big deal? Its not like the dad was out at coffee, if the kid made a mistake speaking, the dad would have been able to correct it. In one of the most stressful jobs in the world, this guy should be rewarded for involving his kid, instead of beating him and his mother.

[RobPaulson]

Unfortunately, the difference between this and most (not all, of course) other "children helping their father at work" kind of situations is that the outcome of a mistake can be quite deadly.

In the room? Sure. An enjoyable moment!

But the kid should NOT have been directing pilots in any way shape or form at all.

Z

+1, father was irresponsible for letting his child do what he did. doesnt need to turn into a national news event though

[Dire91]

this guy should be rewarded for involving his kid, instead of beating him and his mother.

Exactly! Everyone should be as light hearted as this guy!

[93coupe]

this guy should be rewarded for involving his kid, instead of beating him and his mother.

People should be rewarded for doing what is expected of them anyway?

[AZhitman]

Poor judgement.

It's not a "lighten up" thing. ANY risk is too much when you're talking air traffic control.

Even if there was no "real" risk, perceptions are key - Therefore, this was a dumb idea.

[dre1507]

for what it is, it seems the kid did a good job. the pilot on the receiving end sure thought so too. his dad obviously assessed that letting his son give take-off directions after making sure it is ok for the plane take-off wasnt such a bad idea.

whomever his boss is sure is full of dodo. tto even allow a child to be present, said that the boss didnt care. so if you're gonna punish the dad, might as well punish the boss too and all the other pilots. more than one person is at fault here.
Modified by dre1507 at 11:39 AM 3/3/2010

[Solar_Runner]

Air Traffic Control is a no play zone. Stupid stunt. Pops should have known better.

[AZhitman]

What if Little Johnny's dad was a cop?

Sure, let's let him drive the squad car, play with the Taser, maybe crack off some .45-cal rounds? I mean, as long as no one's hurt, what's the harm?

[dusred]

Air Traffic Control is serious business (almost as serious as the internet) and you can't even think about having a mistake or people are gonna die. Sure the kid was having a good time and everything but it's the WRONG time to have a good time. It's like a bomb defuse technician directing his child on how to defuse a bomb. Sure the dad is a professional and guiding the kid but one misstep and lots of s*** hits the fan. Just a bad idea.

[dre1507]

What if Little Johnny's dad was a cop?

Sure, let's let him drive the squad car, play with the Taser, maybe crack off some .45-cal rounds? I mean, as long as no one's hurt, what's the harm?

good point, but in that situation, that dad would seriously need to be arrested more than just punished. i am not saying it was his smartest decision in life, but people are making it seem like he did give his son his gun and say: "shoot at the criminal when i tell you to, son." in a situation like this, the kid is really excited and proud of his dad, and probably wants to be like him. it's highly unlikely he wouldn't follow the correct instructions. but, the kid shouldn't have been there in the first place, so i say punish the dad and his boss, and the other pilots that didn't express any concern about a kid giving them orders.

[hannibal]

Unfortunately, the difference between this and most (not all, of course) other "children helping their father at work" kind of situations is that the outcome of a mistake can be quite deadly.

In the room? Sure. An enjoyable moment!

But the kid should NOT have been directing pilots in any way shape or form at all.

Z

Absolutely right. ATC's have to be licensed. Obviously the kid is not. His Dad couldnt bring any old guy off the street to do the job, so why would it be OK to bring his son?

The kid and his father are guilty of lotsa wrongdoing. I'm guessing its even illegal to speak on those frequencies if you're not a controller. With that said, the kid did a great job. He can brag to his friends about being the youngest ATC ever!

Kinda reminds me of those 'But I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night" commercials...

[Dattebayo]

come on guys. The Faa is serious business. Those guys have a highly responsible and stressful job. Besides there are rules and regulations that have must abide by. I say he should be penalized but not harshly.

Penalized for what? THE KID WASN'T DIRECTING TRAFFIC.

They were just relaying contact orders, dammit. A talking monkey could do that job.

[CSLAVE]

Ok if you guys paid attention the planes were not even in the air. They were still on the runway. I see nothing wrong with this. He was just speaking for his father, it's not like he full control and was making decisions by himself.

[Veriest1]

So was the plane still on the ground? It kind of sounds like it was.

This seems overblown.

[krash]

What if Little Johnny's dad was a cop?

Sure, let's let him drive the squad car, play with the Taser, maybe crack off some .45-cal rounds? I mean, as long as no one's hurt, what's the harm?

well, I think its a little different in this case. It would be one thing if the dad was like "hey son tell the planes what to do, I'm going to get lunch." But I think it was just the kid sitting right next to the dad, the dad telling him to say a line, and then the kid regurgitating that line.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Penalized for what? THE KID WASN'T DIRECTING TRAFFIC.

They were just relaying contact orders, dammit. A talking monkey could do that job.

So was the plane still on the ground? It kind of sounds like it was.

This seems overblown.

In one exchange, the boy is heard saying: "JetBlue 171 contact departure." The pilot responds: "Over to departure JetBlue 171, awesome job."

I don't know how the commercial boys do it, but we get clearance to contact departure shortly after takeoff.

The article may read "preparing for takeoff," but given journalist's stellar track record for research, who knows. Or maybe commercial planes contact departure before takeoff, I don't know.

That said, until a professional pilot or tin pusher weighs in here, I'm claiming to have the most experience with ATC comms. As such, all claims of lives at stake are pretty overblown. Datte is correct, all the kid was doing was letting the JetBlue plane know that they are clear of the tower's area of responsibility, and that they should change frequencies. No call for a specific course, altitude, heading or airspeed.

I think the kid's dad is an awesome father and should not be punished for making the kid's day. I think the fact that the JetBlue pilots where happy to make the kids day as well speaks volumes.

Modified by charlieo at 4:18 PM 3/3/2010
Modified by charlieo at 4:23 PM 3/3/2010

[AZhitman]

They were just relaying contact orders, dammit. A talking monkey could do that job.

...and relaying contact orders, by law, requires a trained ATC. Dammit.

I'm sure there's functions of everyone's job that a talking monkey could do, and in some instances, probably better. That doesn't mean it's appropriate.

You sounded like PMQ in that post.

"I mean, you just slice out the bad part.... how hard can brain surgery really be?"

[szh]

Freak out a little more guys, good god, it seems that the pilots were informed that the kid was with his dad. So the kid sent out a few radio calls with his dad telling him what to do? What is the big deal? Its not like the dad was out at coffee, if the kid made a mistake speaking, the dad would have been able to correct it. In one of the most stressful jobs in the world, this guy should be rewarded for involving his kid, instead of beating him and his mother.

Air controllers do have stressful jobs because they are required to manage a lot of things simultaneously without dropping the ball even once EVER in their lifetime careers.

Things become second nature and come naturally to an experienced controller - many things are done/said instinctively and quickly. But if he/she is distracted by making sure that his kid is saying the right thing, it can be a Bad Thing.

Definitely bad judgement on the controllers part, and it calls into questions his ability to make similar judgement calls during crisis moments.

So, yes, it is definitely worth making a big deal about. Do you fly as a commercial pilot? I know two pilot friends who are shaking their heads in complete disbelief at this story. They put their lives and their passengers lives in the hands of the air traffic controller - with complete trust in that persons ability to keep things straight. Distraction can be deadly.

And, this was not exactly an out-of-the-way airport in the middle of nowhere - we are talking about JFK in New York City, no less!

Z

[Urabus GodofTraction]

without dropping the ball even once EVER in their lifetime careers.

Suuuure. They drop the ball all the time. Most recent major experiences: in June tower tried to fly me into a Learjet. In November they flew me through an active air refueling track. They get frequencies and the like wrong constantly, especially if we request UHF (civies deal in VHF).

[szh]

Penalized for what? THE KID WASN'T DIRECTING TRAFFIC.

They were just relaying contact orders, dammit. A talking monkey could do that job.

To stretch the surgeon analogy, you are saying that maybe it is okay for the kid not to make the cut, but he can tell the nurse to hand stuff to his dad, the surgeon.

Dad: "Tell the nurse to hand me the Metzenbaum Scissors, kid!"

Lives are at stake (in this surgeon's case, only one, I suppose) and inexperienced people - let alone children - should not be at the helm.

So, where do you draw the line? Just because he was not "not directing traffic" (I assume you mean "not in the air") is not sufficient grounds for him to be allowed to say one word to the pilots at any time in this situation.

There was a Singapore Airlines crash in the Far East not too long ago, where the controller directed the plane onto the wrong runway ... before the plane left the ground and was not in the air. When the 747 accelerated down the runway, the pilot did not notice that he was on the wrong parallel runway ... or the parked vehicles on it ... till too late!

Yes, I don't see anything wrong with the kid being in the room watching things happen (and, even then, only if he is old enough not to be a distraction for the dad), but he should not have been given a live mike at all.

I have spoken to some pilot friends about this and they are appalled at the lack of judgement on the part of this air-controller father. Doing this at one of the world's busiest airports? Bad thinking.

Z

[RCA]

Unfortunately, the difference between this and most (not all, of course) other "children helping their father at work" kind of situations is that the outcome of a mistake can be quite deadly.

In the room? Sure. An enjoyable moment!

But the kid should NOT have been directing pilots in any way shape or form at all.

Z

^ This

I am all for spending time with the kids and sure he had fun... But his dad doesn't work at the local Apple Bee's and his kid isn't walking drinks to tables.

Would you want the medical surgeon responsible for you to have his kid snip and clamp? The kid did a fine job and he had adult supervision but as the patient how would you feel? There are just some jobs where this just isn't cool...

[szh]

Suuuure. They drop the ball all the time. Most recent major experiences: in June tower tried to fly me into a Learjet. In November they flew me through an active air refueling track. They get frequencies and the like wrong constantly, especially if we request UHF (civies deal in VHF).

Uhhh ... I know they drop the ball and make mistakes. That is where the stress comes from. What I meant was, they are not supposed to put themselves in situations where they might drop the ball.

They are required to do their best all the time, and their best does not mean knowingly putting the responsibility onto a kids shoulders.

Z