typing in caps doesntmake you right---
thanks sherlock--and breaking my statements down and responding with not one fact doesnt make you right either, bud.
The "jets" that you keep on harping about dont force the nitrous into the motor, mister looks stock runs 8's. The nitrous PILLS (correct term) only restrict the flow of nitrous introduced into the intake tract. There is no force other than the force of the nitrous escaping the bottle. The nitrous is not being forced from the bottle.
you said like 3 times that the jets are responsible for pressurazing the air into the intake---do you even know how a nitrous system works?their is no pressue in the system other than what is present form the bottle being pressuized with the nitrous itself. the solenoids only act as control valves to open and close--then the "jets" control the amount thats introduced.its not forced--its not anything other than placed in a location that when it escapes, it escapes into a direct route into the motor. if the motor wasnt inducing it, then it would head outwards to the filter, but since its being SUCKED in, then its not really being forced anywhere,is it?
The oxygen content thing is totally lost on me. How in the heck does that have anything to do with with positive manifold pressure? The manifold doesnt see any more oxygen with nitrous than what the motor can draw in and ingest. If the car is off--and you spray nitrsou into the manifold--itll sit there(provided its contained) until the motor is cranked, then it gets sucked in. Mush like fogging an airbox on a bike. YOu spray, let the air box fill up with nitrous, then hit it--the motor sucks in a big gulp of the stuff--but its not forced into at all
like he said--argue all you want--but it doesnt change the fact that its not forced induction.
-Josh
Fastest powered KA in the US?
nitrous is not forced induction, i've been a nitrous user for 2 years (sounds like an addiction meeting) and it's considered a power adder. Nitrous is not forcing air into the intake manifold in the amounts that would be considered forced induction. Running nitrous does not put the manifold into a boost state without a turbo or s/c already on the motor. If that was the case, then a hacked MAFs would be forced induction because it is putting in more air than the engine has "natrually".
"Nitrous is not forcing air into the intake manifold "
then explain how the nitrous gets there, its under pressure, and is jetted into the intake tract.
also, I am refering to the oxygen content in the engine as my definition of forced induction, but driving down a mountain face, etc doesnt constitute the same thing I am refering to, which is actively putting more O2 into the intake tract that would be nomally uptaken.
"The oxygen content thing is totally lost on me. How in the heck does that have anything to do with with positive manifold pressure? The manifold doesnt see any more oxygen with nitrous than what the motor can draw in and ingest."
so....oxygen content is lost on you, but you're asking me if I know about n20?
it doesnt have anything to do with positive manifold pressure, and positive manifold pressure isnt how I define forced induction...that's not the point I am making. YES the manifold DOES see more oxygen than normal with nitrous, that is the point of using a nitrous system-to force more 02 into the engine so it can burn more, otherwise..what would be the point of nitrous? there wouldnt be one.
yes i do know how a nitrous system works, and the bottle pressure forces( at high PSI) the gas mixture into the intake tract, acusing more o2 than would be there ordinarilly..thats why I call it forced induction.
"but since its being SUCKED in, then its not really being forced anywhere,is it?"
yes, its being forced into the intake manifold, like I said before.
"The "jets" that you keep on harping about dont force the nitrous into the motor, mister looks stock runs 8's"
moderator. and they force nitrous into the intake manfiold, see 2 points above.
for UNO-"If that was the case, then a hacked MAFs would be forced induction because it is putting in more air than the engine has "natrually"." uno-the MAF doesnt controll how much air or oxygen is uptaken into the engine. please tell me you didnt install a nitrous system thinking like that....
if you guys want to define forced induction as positive manifold pressures, that's fine. I dont agree with it, obviously. but please dont tell me I havent pressented any facts or things like that, it just irritates me.
Alan, thaks for your respect in this debate.-chet
then explain how the nitrous gets there, its under pressure, and is jetted into the intake tract.
also, I am refering to the oxygen content in the engine as my definition of forced induction, but driving down a mountain face, etc doesnt constitute the same thing I am refering to, which is actively putting more O2 into the intake tract that would be nomally uptaken.
"The oxygen content thing is totally lost on me. How in the heck does that have anything to do with with positive manifold pressure? The manifold doesnt see any more oxygen with nitrous than what the motor can draw in and ingest."
so....oxygen content is lost on you, but you're asking me if I know about n20?
it doesnt have anything to do with positive manifold pressure, and positive manifold pressure isnt how I define forced induction...that's not the point I am making. YES the manifold DOES see more oxygen than normal with nitrous, that is the point of using a nitrous system-to force more 02 into the engine so it can burn more, otherwise..what would be the point of nitrous? there wouldnt be one.
yes i do know how a nitrous system works, and the bottle pressure forces( at high PSI) the gas mixture into the intake tract, acusing more o2 than would be there ordinarilly..thats why I call it forced induction.
"but since its being SUCKED in, then its not really being forced anywhere,is it?"
yes, its being forced into the intake manifold, like I said before.
"The "jets" that you keep on harping about dont force the nitrous into the motor, mister looks stock runs 8's"
moderator. and they force nitrous into the intake manfiold, see 2 points above.
for UNO-"If that was the case, then a hacked MAFs would be forced induction because it is putting in more air than the engine has "natrually"." uno-the MAF doesnt controll how much air or oxygen is uptaken into the engine. please tell me you didnt install a nitrous system thinking like that....
if you guys want to define forced induction as positive manifold pressures, that's fine. I dont agree with it, obviously. but please dont tell me I havent pressented any facts or things like that, it just irritates me.
Alan, thaks for your respect in this debate.-chet
well wouldn't this debate depend on where the jets are located then? If it dumps into the intake manifold, just because something else is in there doesn't necessarily mean it's being forced anywhere. The bulk of the foces that are exerted are from the suction from the motor itself, not the injection of anything into the collector tanks. It's like taking a breath of air, just because someone were to spray a mist of water in the path of the air that's flowing into your nostrils or mouth doesn't mean that you'll get the extra water forced down you, you'll get it through dissociation through the air that picks up the extra bits of the water that was sprayed in front of you. I just don't think of NOS as forced induction, since there's only an injection which is pretty minisucle in terms of overall pressure as compared to something like a turbo that greatly changes pressure. Cuz by the very same logic of injection of NOS into the intake stream, one could also argue that driving down the freeway with a hose that runs from the front of the car to the air filter is also forced induction that that really doesn't sound right to me.
it all depends on how you want to define "forced" one side is using the definition similar this "you are forced to eat that steak" where as the other side sees "forced" as energy or pressure. i believe nitrous is a power adder. i believe that to be considered forced induction you have to be adding air pressure over atm pressure to the intake. i do understand both sides of the arguement and there will always be two sides to the discussion due to ppl defining "forced" in two different ways.
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BurntClutch
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Asleep Altima
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http://www.musclecarclub.com/l...shtml
its forced induction. it dramatically raises cylinder pressures.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/...s.htm
i guess these people dont know what theyre talking about.
its forced induction. it dramatically raises cylinder pressures.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/...s.htm
i guess these people dont know what theyre talking about.
Asleep Altima wrote:its forced induction. it dramatically raises cylinder pressures.
If you're looking basically at cylinder pressures, it could also be argued that by adding any additional oxygen into a combustion reaction, that obvsiously you're going to have more CO2, H2O, CO, and other compounds after a combustion reaction that have expanded into a gas form which will increase pressure given that volume, temperature, moles of reactants used, etc are all held constant. (PV = nRT) What gets to me about that statement is that just because of a combustion reaction that does have more oxygen than it would normally do is called forced induction. Purely hypothetical, would a car that's being fed higher concentrations of oxygen then be called "forced"? If so then would you go about calling a car that's running at death valley (one of the lower places on earth with a higher concentration of o2 per unit of air) than lets say a car running at the altitude of the pinnacle of Mt. Everest?
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AZhitman
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I'll throw another monkey wrench into the debate:
Come to AZ and fill up on some of our "oxygenated" summer fuel. You'll bring more O2 into the combustion chamber.
For the record, I'm on the side of N20 = power adder (just like octane boost or alcohol injection).
However, I agree that a car with N20 shouldn't be categorized as "all motor". That's an old-school drag racer term, and if you say you're all motor around some musclecar guys, and you have NOS, you're gonna get popped in the lip.
Come to AZ and fill up on some of our "oxygenated" summer fuel. You'll bring more O2 into the combustion chamber.
For the record, I'm on the side of N20 = power adder (just like octane boost or alcohol injection).
However, I agree that a car with N20 shouldn't be categorized as "all motor". That's an old-school drag racer term, and if you say you're all motor around some musclecar guys, and you have NOS, you're gonna get popped in the lip.
Asleep Altima wrote:did you read the info in the links?
oh yeah I read the links. Just I'm not about to say that just something that's found online to be truth. ex: a webpage selling those little electric fans and labeling them as electric turbos could set up some other page that is seemingly legit but say 'oh they work wonders! added another 1000whp!' Would you take that guy's advice? Obviously not unless you're a total idiot. Take the definitions you find online with a grain of salt.
My guess is that you didn't pay much attention during chemistry or think about basic phycial principles when you took everything some guy on a webpage posted. Basically I don't see the extra physical force pushing the oxygen molecules into the cylinder any faster aside from the injectors causing a change in the vector of the air that's already being sucked in by the motor as a result of the NOS being injected, but the general direction and speed of the air/fuel/nos mix is still in the general direction of the cylinders with very close to the same vector the molecules originally had prior to the injection. ex: suppose I add water injection to a motor to keep it from detonating. should that be considered forced induction also? There's another liquid that's being injected into the mix with the fuel, and by your definition of "forced", I've added one more oxygen per water molecule. Put the car on a dyno and I make a few more ponies. By your guru's definition from the page, that'd also be forced induction. So where's the 'force' that you speak of aside from the increased chemical force once everything's been sealed up in the cylinders and ignited? The 'force' I'm used to seeing from turbo applications is basically cram as much air/fuel into the cylinders while the valve is open via a physical force provided by the turbo. NOS doesn't do that.
Just like Hitman said, I don't think of NOS as 'all motor' but I don't think of it as 'forced' induction either.
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Asleep Altima
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simple example for all your big words; have you ever "pushed the button" on an open nitrous line with a full bottle behind it? you dont have to pay much attention in chemistry class to know that the force of that mix thats about to come flying out of that nozzle is much harder than the force the fuel injectors have. maybe its not on par - maybe - with the 4.5-30 lbs of boost you get from a turbo or supercharger, but its hardly someone blowing into your intake with a straw and calling that forced injection. i picked the links i picked simply because one is well known for showing, "how things work" and the other was by someone in the sport for at least some amount of time and has experience. so, my guess is that youre basing much of what you know on magazine and class room numbers and not a whole lot on real life.
one thing, and this is kind of what I was getting at
"Nitrous oxide has this effect because it has a higher percentage of oxygen content than does the air in the atmosphere. Nitrous has 36% oxygen by weight and the atmosphere has 23%. Additionally, nitrous oxide is 50% more dense than air at the same pressure. Thus, a cubic foot of nitrous oxide contains 2.3 times as much oxygen as a cubic foot of air. Just do a bit of math in your head and you can see if we substitute some nitrous oxide for some of the air going into an engine than add the appropriate amount of additional fuel, the engine is going to put out more power.
Simply stated, nitrous oxide injection is very much like a supercharger or a compression ratio increase in that, during combustion, it can dramatically increase the dynamic cylinder pressure in the engine.
Of course, when we significantly increase the cylinder pressure in the engine, we also increase the engine's tendancy to detonate. This is why almost all nitrous motors require retarded spark timing during nitrous oxide operation. The cylinder pressure increase is also why, when misused or improperly installed, operation with nitrous causes problems with head gasket seal and failures of the rings or pistons. I should point out that any number of things that put an engine into severe detonation, such as too much boost from a supercharger...."
*ahem*
ktnks.
also:"ex: suppose I add water injection to a motor to keep it from detonating. should that be considered forced induction also?"no, because its not used to directly raise cylinder pressures or be burned for fuel/oxygen.
"The 'force' I'm used to seeing from turbo applications is basically cram as much air/fuel into the cylinders while the valve is open via a physical force provided by the turbo. NOS doesn't do that."
you got the first part right, its used to cram as much air/fuel(via a denser, more oxygen rich(see above) mixture into the cylinder.) the physical force would be the nitrous jets and bottle pressure..either way, the end result is the same..much more oxygen into the cylinder and much higher effective compression.
re-read the above section on nitrous, and my previous posts..
nitrous IS forced induction.
-chet
"Nitrous oxide has this effect because it has a higher percentage of oxygen content than does the air in the atmosphere. Nitrous has 36% oxygen by weight and the atmosphere has 23%. Additionally, nitrous oxide is 50% more dense than air at the same pressure. Thus, a cubic foot of nitrous oxide contains 2.3 times as much oxygen as a cubic foot of air. Just do a bit of math in your head and you can see if we substitute some nitrous oxide for some of the air going into an engine than add the appropriate amount of additional fuel, the engine is going to put out more power.
Simply stated, nitrous oxide injection is very much like a supercharger or a compression ratio increase in that, during combustion, it can dramatically increase the dynamic cylinder pressure in the engine.
Of course, when we significantly increase the cylinder pressure in the engine, we also increase the engine's tendancy to detonate. This is why almost all nitrous motors require retarded spark timing during nitrous oxide operation. The cylinder pressure increase is also why, when misused or improperly installed, operation with nitrous causes problems with head gasket seal and failures of the rings or pistons. I should point out that any number of things that put an engine into severe detonation, such as too much boost from a supercharger...."
*ahem*
ktnks.
also:"ex: suppose I add water injection to a motor to keep it from detonating. should that be considered forced induction also?"no, because its not used to directly raise cylinder pressures or be burned for fuel/oxygen.
"The 'force' I'm used to seeing from turbo applications is basically cram as much air/fuel into the cylinders while the valve is open via a physical force provided by the turbo. NOS doesn't do that."
you got the first part right, its used to cram as much air/fuel(via a denser, more oxygen rich(see above) mixture into the cylinder.) the physical force would be the nitrous jets and bottle pressure..either way, the end result is the same..much more oxygen into the cylinder and much higher effective compression.
re-read the above section on nitrous, and my previous posts..
nitrous IS forced induction.
-chet
Asleep Altima wrote:much harder than the force the fuel injectors have. maybe its not on par - maybe - with the 4.5-30 lbs of boost you get from a turbo or supercharger, but its hardly someone blowing into your intake with a straw and calling that forced injection.
Well the way I'm looking at it is like this. From what it looks like, it looks like a fuel injector from the way I'm looking at it. Fuel injector but dumping a fuel with a higher chemical potential. Now suppose you've also got a vacuum cleaner and a water gun. the vacuum cleaner is still going to suck in that same about the same volume of stuff regardless of whether or not you've got the squirt gun shooting into it or not. The water you'd have squirting into the vacuum cleaner is just going to displace some of the air that the vacuum cleaner would otherwise suck in. The squirt of the water gun doesn't change the velocity of all the air that's being sucked into the water gun does it? That's what I'm trying to get at. When I think of forced induction, I think of an external force (turbo or supercharger) that is causing an increase in velocity of the air and everything else in the aggregate versus at just certain points ie. where the stream of NOS would be coming out from the injection points and the resulting stream.
Also exar I get what you're saying about the water injection, however it does raise the pressure with water being in there. The vaporization of a liquid to gas causes alot of increase in pressure but it does also take alot of energy to convert a liquid into a gas. Volume and pressure of the vaporized water does increase so it does directly effect the cylinder pressure. Reason it doesn't cause the motor to fry is because of the amount of energy it takes to convert liquid into vapor, keeping that energy being put into thermal energy.
Ex: Take some water in a bottle and cork it. Heat the bottle and you'll find that the water has expanded and popped the cork off via the pressure exerted by the water vapor. If you also take a measurement of the water before and after you'll see that some of the water's been lost in the form of vapor but the pressure within the glass bottle popped off the cork because of the heightened pressure. That's basically what you were getting at though wasn't it? That the water injection doesn't increase pressure?
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Asleep Altima
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i see what youre saying and its still not the same as nitrous and its way that it is introduced into the engine. true, spray a squirt gun into a vacuum and the air pressure wont change, now take a fire hose and spray that into the same vacuum and what happens? the nitrous mix isnt drizzled into the intake, its blasted and pretty damn quickly. so much so, that while the valves are open, theres quite a bit of air and nitrous mix being slammed into the ports. correct?
yes, but the water isnt being used as a FUEL, nitrous and the higher(compressed) air fed in by a turbo or supercharger is...
from my understanding, water injection is a band-aide for poorly tuned forced induction systems anyway....but thats a different debate.
either way, from what I see, and apparently the how-stuff-works people, and more than afew others, anything raising the oxygen content into the cylinder srtifically, and raising the cylinder pressure is forced induction.-chet
from my understanding, water injection is a band-aide for poorly tuned forced induction systems anyway....but thats a different debate.
either way, from what I see, and apparently the how-stuff-works people, and more than afew others, anything raising the oxygen content into the cylinder srtifically, and raising the cylinder pressure is forced induction.-chet
Exar-Kun I see your points, you've presented them well, i guess it all comes down to what each of us call forced induction. To me, it's positive manifold pressure, but to others it's something different.But i think we all agree that a n/a motor with nitrous shouldn't be considered all motor. But those links were informative and the thing about cylinder pressure makes sense so i guess my consideration was technically wrong .
but that's a sweet ka:ylsuper
but that's a sweet ka:ylsuper
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