Fastest N/A KA24de

[refluxd]

Anyone Know what the fastest N/A KA24de is running currently and what the specs / money invested is looking like. I talked to a guy here in town that says on his 97 s14 kouki with minor stuff.. weisco pistons, random rods, crank, cams, header, and 2.5 exhaust hes running 200rwhp... any logic / truth in that statement. Let me know if u got any info?? I hear some :: orion :: guy has a fast one.. but I dont have his contact info to speak with him.

[Mr.Sandman]

who cares....

[fatboy]

200whp is believable. ****, tons of guys are pushing 200whp in civics with less displacement!

[Mr.Sandman]

200whp is believable. ****, tons of guys are pushing 200whp in civics with less displacement!

NO!!! Displacement doesn't nessary mean more hp. Most civics have good cam timing, Honda is all about make more power using its cams in a better way, if would call it like that. VTEC....HELLO..Variable Valve Timing & Electronic Control look at the F1 race cars..2.4 v12.

[fatboy]

NO!!! Displacement doesn't nessary mean more hp. Most civics have good cam timing, Honda is all about make more power using its cams in a better way, if would call it like that. VTEC....HELLO..Variable Valve Timing & Electronic Control look at the F1 race cars..2.4 v12.

you've heard "theres no replacement for displacement" right? well, its pretty true.

[S14Life]

that's an ignorant statement.

[Lil_JV]

you've heard "theres no replacement for displacement" right? well, its pretty true.

Nice comeback. Please... explain.

[InsanityInc]

NO!!! Displacement doesn't nessary mean more hp. Most civics have good cam timing, Honda is all about make more power using its cams in a better way, if would call it like that. VTEC....HELLO..Variable Valve Timing & Electronic Control look at the F1 race cars..2.4 v12.

Eh, not really.

More displacement = more torque potential. Also, F1 NA engines are 3.0L, and they aren't all V12s. The reason why they're V12s specifically is so that the stroke can be very very small so as to allow higher RPM levels safely (upwards of 18,000 rpm these days).

VTEC is worthless when you're talking about a race engine because you can run grinds that are just as crazy as the top grind on the VTEC cam with a normal fixed DOHC setup. The point of VTEC is to be able to run that grind but still maintain better fuel efficiency idle quality and emissions at low RPM.

Now, lets see what horsepower is first, shall we?

Horsepower = Torque * rpm/5252. That's how horsepower is calculated. No if's and's or but's, that's how it is.

So, as you can see, there are two ways to make more power:

1) Make more torque2) Make the same amount of torque at a higher RPM

Displacement does #1. Fiddling with camshafts and such does #2. Now, if you do #1 and #2, you're going to make more power than if you just do one or the other. If F1 engines were 5L, you can be damn sure they'd make a lot more power.

But there are plenty of KAs that are above 200WHP. Lots of Es top that, but only a few DEs that I know of.

[95hondakillr]

Eh, not really.

More displacement = more torque potential. Also, F1 NA engines are 3.0L, and they aren't all V12s. The reason why they're V12s specifically is so that the stroke can be very very small so as to allow higher RPM levels safely (upwards of 18,000 rpm these days).

VTEC is worthless when you're talking about a race engine because you can run grinds that are just as crazy as the top grind on the VTEC cam with a normal fixed DOHC setup. The point of VTEC is to be able to run that grind but still maintain better fuel efficiency idle quality and emissions at low RPM.

Now, lets see what horsepower is first, shall we?

Horsepower = Torque * rpm/5252. That's how horsepower is calculated. No if's and's or but's, that's how it is.

So, as you can see, there are two ways to make more power:

1) Make more torque2) Make the same amount of torque at a higher RPM

Displacement does #1. Fiddling with camshafts and such does #2. Now, if you do #1 and #2, you're going to make more power than if you just do one or the other. If F1 engines were 5L, you can be damn sure they'd make a lot more power.

But there are plenty of KAs that are above 200WHP. Lots of Es top that, but only a few DEs that I know of.

Nice math, but horsepower is a BYPRODUCT of torque (i.e. horsepower= torque/5252) and it is much easier to achieve more torque from a large displacement engine. There is no replacement for displacement. bottom line. Alot of people say technology or turbos are the replacements for it so I say go race a turbo V8 in a turbo 4 cylinder and let me know who wins You could also just ask Aries to race his S14 is NA but its also an LT or LS1 not sure which. Do a search and you can find some of his vids at the track.

[Mr.Sandman]

I agree, i didn't want to get way deep into typing. I just wanted to say the main reason way hondas produce more power out of a 1.8Inline vs 2.4inline, was because of their cams. And yes VTEC is good to only a certain point. If your going to add a turbo or supercharge, no point of having the cams work harder when they need to. But Honda is all about N/A cars completing with its class. These days, all companys have their own way of VTC. thats all i meant

[DriftingisLame]

you've heard "theres no replacement for displacement" right? well, its pretty true.

Volumetric efficiency- its why those 1.8 civics make more power man.. Also when a motor comes closer to reaching its maximum volumetric efficiency, its typically because the motor is completely built for very high horsepower. When this happens the motors tend to have a lower torque # and also tend to hit their max hp much higher in the rev range at one certain point (vtec in this case). This is why F1 motors are *3.0L v8's*that make around 900 hp and 300 torque. I dont know for sure, but it would be my educated guess that they wouldnt hit any serious hp before 10k rpm.

ANYWAYS... back to the damn topic. I want to hear about a high hp KA, lets see the setup. Answer the guys question lol.

[DriftingisLame]

I say go race a turbo V8 in a turbo 4 cylinder and let me know who wins

Also, thats way too broad of a question.

Why do you think a modded cobra (supercharged v8), is not as fast as my friends KA-T? its not all about the displacement, but I already answered that one.. right up there ^^^^^^

[Mr.Sandman]

Also, thats way too broad of a question.

Why do you think a modded cobra (supercharged v8), is not as fast as my friends KA-T? its not all about the displacement, but I already answered that one.. right up there ^^^^^^

i agree with this man, You can take a V8 that super charged or turbo charge. Any way you want it. Then have 700 hp coming out of that motor. BIG PROBLEM your going to be 35 hundred pounds of junk. Cuz any can create power with a couple of turbos or a with one fatboy. I'd rather be running 500 hp with a WIDE, short *** RX7, and have my weight balance. Vs a solid rear axle bucket, thats only fast in a striaght line. But thats just me. Yeah sure you want weight with all that power. But 24 hundred pounds is fine for me with 295s in the back.

[dfw240_EE]

I could definitely see some TLC getting 200hp out of the KA without a turbo. The attractive thing there is that a KA-T/SR will throw you right into the SM class at SCCA Autocross, NA KA won't.

[Juujai]

you've heard "theres no replacement for displacement" right? well, its pretty true.

that only applies if both motors are near identical. and we are only talking about hp/tq figures and not about handling or blah blah. like a 99 cents bag of cheetos vs a king size. or a regular long neck corona vs a 40oz =). i don't really think the ka was designed as even a sporty motor...

lots of factors when it comes to speed/1/4mi etc... not just displacement although it is important, aerodynamics, tires, engine design, weight distribution, drive train, weight etc etc...

[Chingon]

i agree with this man, You can take a V8 that super charged or turbo charge. Any way you want it. Then have 700 hp coming out of that motor. BIG PROBLEM your going to be 35 hundred pounds of junk. Cuz any can create power with a couple of turbos or a with one fatboy. I'd rather be running 500 hp with a WIDE, short *** RX7, and have my weight balance. Vs a solid rear axle bucket, thats only fast in a striaght line. But thats just me. Yeah sure you want weight with all that power. But 24 hundred pounds is fine for me with 295s in the back.

cobras have irs. Rotaries are not so light.

[dfw240_EE]

Except the rotary is so compact, so gaining a good placement is easier.

"There is no replacement for displacement"Unless you cheat

[USsil80]

i agree with this man, You can take a V8 that super charged or turbo charge. Any way you want it. Then have 700 hp coming out of that motor. BIG PROBLEM your going to be 35 hundred pounds of junk. Cuz any can create power with a couple of turbos or a with one fatboy. I'd rather be running 500 hp with a WIDE, short *** RX7, and have my weight balance. Vs a solid rear axle bucket, thats only fast in a striaght line. But thats just me. Yeah sure you want weight with all that power. But 24 hundred pounds is fine for me with 295s in the back.

plus a 13b is really a 2.6L.... look at all the class for the car they are placed in the same class as a 6 cylinder car... but i still wil get one when my project s13 is done...

[Chingon]

plus a 13b is really a 2.6L.... look at all the class for the car they are placed in the same class as a 6 cylinder car... but i still wil get one when my project s13 is done...

it's physically not a 2.6, but when comparing to a 4 stroke engine, it's considered one.

[95hondakillr]

Also, thats way too broad of a question.

Why do you think a modded cobra (supercharged v8), is not as fast as my friends KA-T? its not all about the displacement, but I already answered that one.. right up there ^^^^^^

Its called power to weight ratio! Any type of forced induction is nothing more than what? Increasing displacement! Think about it.

[Mr.Sandman]

plus a 13b is really a 2.6L.... look at all the class for the car they are placed in the same class as a 6 cylinder car... but i still wil get one when my project s13 is done...

NO, NO, NOall wrong,.....13b, means 1.3 liter. each rotary has a displacement of 655cc. Now times that by 2 and you get 13ish. Silly.......All of displacement is the same, doesn't matter how many cylinders you use. So, YES, 1.3 liter is keeping up with 3.0 liter supra. Do some research, before you try to tell teach someone. not trying to sound like a jerk, but how can someone learn the truth, if he's being told lies. Also, you can't really compare a rotary engine with a piston engine cuz they both work completely different.COMPLETLYlol

[DriftingisLame]

Its called power to weight ratio! Any type of forced induction is nothing more than what? Increasing displacement! Think about it.

Yeah, i thought about it and that still doesnt make sense. A 2.0L motor with 9:1 compression running 20 psi out of a giant turbo is still a 2.0L motor. And is still most likely much more powerful than a 5.0L all motor with similar compression. The 2L is just much more efficient. I dont even really know what else to say because what you said still doesnt make sense

['90_240sx_Lover]

I didn't read the whole post, but i had an interesting statement about the VTEC. My dad saw a motor that had all the vavles bent form the piston's hitting them. He asked the guy and he said he got the motor off of some kid that was slamming gears and hit 3rd going from 4th to 5th. The timing couldn't adjust back fast enough so the pistons smashed the valves. i laughed.

[dfw240_EE]

I am not so sure that was VTEC. If he was at full throttle then the cams were in "wild" mode, meaning long duration, high lift, large overlap. Then going from 4th to 3rd would have caused the RPMs to spike even higher, like insane levels. At that point you are WAY over Honda's max RPM limit and so the ECU cuts off fuel to the engine. (On my 91 Civic DX that was around 6700-7000)

Now you are engine braking with the engine at 10,000+RPM, and you are putting insane forces on the engine. I would not be shocked at that point if the belt jumped a tooth or two. Also you are clearly beyond the Honda engineer's designed limit for the cams, and I am sure the valves would float at this point. This is another possible source for that sort of damage. Another possibility is that the timing chain snapped like a rubber band at those RPMs, and we know what happens there.

I remember on another forum there was a guy with an S13 that did the exact same thing, 4th to 3rd instead of 5th at 90mph-100mph. He claimed that his transmission detonated on the spot. Good guy, didn't get rid of it, after some time he managed to fix it.

[97ka-t]

cobras have irs. Rotaries are not so light.

Okay, excuse me for the angry post, I used to have a '93 RX-7 before my Kouki...

Are you ****ing out of your mind? Rotaries are not so light? Any strong invidual can singlehandedly pick up the block!!! Think about it. 1.3L rotary engine vs 5.7L V8 LS1.. hmmm..

[dfw240_EE]

I also remember hearing that the all aluminum LS1 is only 50lbs or so heavier than the 13BTT. Basically the explanation was that the internals are quite beefy, but since the package is so compact placing it strategically for weight balance is easy.

I met a guy with an FC 5.7L V8 at an autocross, he said he actually cut the firewall to set the V8 back. He had loads of room between the front of the engine and the radiator, so I guess it worked.

[rn240sx]

Anyone Know what the fastest N/A KA24de is running currently and what the specs / money invested is looking like. I talked to a guy here in town that says on his 97 s14 kouki with minor stuff.. weisco pistons, random rods, crank, cams, header, and 2.5 exhaust hes running 200rwhp... any logic / truth in that statement. Let me know if u got any info?? I hear some :: orion :: guy has a fast one.. but I dont have his contact info to speak with him.

200 whp from a n/a ka motor is believable, but very hard to get.

The most hp ive seen on an all motor ka IN PERSON was 176 whp... It was a 95 ka motor with every bolt-on possibe, dual 91 ex cams and afc to fine tune the fuel curve to get all the power possible..

When i had my S13 i dynoed 146 whp. That was with every bolt on possible with the exception of the cams and afc...

Orion does not run n/a.. he is TURBO.

[dfw240_EE]

At this point I think it is less bolting on everything possible and such and more upto intelligence and research.

I heard that megasquirt now supports full throttle closed loop control with a wideband O2 sensor. That could be an interesting line of research.

[97ka-t]

I've seen 150-something with stock internals on a KA.

[Chingon]

Okay, excuse me for the angry post, I used to have a '93 RX-7 before my Kouki...

Are you ****ing out of your mind? Rotaries are not so light? Any strong invidual can singlehandedly pick up the block!!! Think about it. 1.3L rotary engine vs 5.7L V8 LS1.. hmmm..

short block sans anything maybe. Fully dressed 13brew weights at 430 give or take 10-15 lbs.

TOTAL, COMPLETE, FULLY DRESSED, FULLY OILED, crate ls1 (5.7) from GM is 458#s

So don't ****ing patronize me.