Even Some College Students Are Starting to Get It

[stebo0728]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOyaJ2UI7Ss[/youtube]

I know some of you will denounce the analogy here, go ahead, but the concept of earning is universal, and so is the concept of taking.

[IBCoupe]

Sum up the analogy? I'm mobile right now.

[stebo0728]

They ask students to sign a petition allowing the college to take GPA points away from students with "excessive" GPA scores, and award the points to the "less fortunate" lower grade students. The students are appalled, they earned those grades dammit. Well hey guess what, the "excessive" rich earned their wealth too.

[heliochrome85]

its a flawed analogy, but it is the rights analogy de jour trying to justify why they want the poor to die.

[stebo0728]

The right doesnt want the poor to die, they want the poor to fight their own battles, to better themselves, themselves, not at the behest of other's liberties

Thats whats wrong with the left, they left just LOVE the scare tactics. Those evil republicans want to let the poor die, want to take away old peoples medical care, stop with the rhetoric of fear, and

And please enlighten the rest of us as to the flaw of the analogy.

[IBCoupe]

Flawed analogy is an understatement.

Why do students get grades? Oh, right! To establish representations of their intellectual aptitude, in order to stand out from the crowd! It's almost like redistributing grades fundamentally defeats the purpose of having a grading system at all.

Why do people earn income? Oh, right! To eat! It must be that taxing the rich more to pay for social programs that benefit everyone similarly defeats the purpose of labor compensation. Yeah. That sounds plausible.

Come on, Conservatives, this is the joke argument, right? To warm up the crowd and make your real argument appear more convincing?


Cliffs:

[stebo0728]

Flawed analogy is an understatement.

Why do students get grades? Oh, right! To establish representations of their intellectual aptitude, in order to stand out from the crowd! It's almost like redistributing grades fundamentally defeats the purpose of having a grading system at all.

Why do people earn income? Oh, right! To eat! It must be that taxing the rich more to pay for social programs that benefit everyone similarly defeats the purpose of labor compensation. Yeah. That sounds plausible.

Come on, Conservatives, this is the joke argument, right? To warm up the crowd and make your real argument appear more convincing?


Cliffs:

Ok, you've contrasted the 2, now let me compare the two. And I understand the contrast you've laid out, but I dont believe that contrast, though a flaw perhaps, does not completely kill the argument made. So for my comparison.

Grades: Are earned how? Individually correct? Each person's grade is a direct reflection of the work he puts into the system. Grades are intangible, grades can be attributed to the "lowly" without depriving the achievers, but to do so would be the equivalent to printing money to give to the poor, it would dilute the achievement value.

Wealth: Is earned how? Well traditionally it is earned individually, and is a reflection of the work a person puts into society. Wealth is tangible, wealth cannot be attributed to the lowly without depriving the achievers, even when money is printed, the devaluation of wealth resulting from inflation dilutes the achievement value of hard work.

In either case, the non-achiever is buffered at the expense of the achiever, and the underlying currency in question loses value.

[Cold_Zero]

Great come back Helio. I am sure that response wins all arguments. Republicans want... Children to die! Women to die! Poor people to die! Old people to die! ahhh Fear mongering at its finest.

Why do people earn income? Oh, right! To eat! It must be that taxing the rich more to pay for social programs that benefit everyone similarly defeats the purpose of labor compensation. Yeah. That sounds plausible.

And pay for my Mortgage, my daughter’s tuition, the cable bill, the cell phone bill, my car payment, our upcoming trip to OBX… Wow, there are a lot of non essential items in my list. But then again, I am just a dirty bourgeois according to the proletariat. But dont worry, above what I forfeit to the government, I also pay a percentage to feed the poor and to help battered women in Indianapolis and Milwaukee. So I cant be all THAT bad.

Speaking of grades and schooling, I am reminded about a radio segment I heard riding home from work. ‘Healthy Social Origins’ Soviet era policy at its finest.
http://www.rri.ro/art.shtml?lang=1&sec=9&art=125872

[Cold_Zero]

I just resent the implication that I need to be force by the government into Charitable giving either by taxing me (and the government doling out my money to charities) or by tax credits (deducting charitable giving). It is a system that in my opinion, that has help create the problem (of people not taking care of others) rather than correcting the behavior.

[IBCoupe]

Right, but I think what you guys are missing is that in life, wealth is compensation for your efforts, right?

In education, we don't need grades. There is no fundamental requirement for them. We could have an educational system without it. Your efforts in school are rewarded by increased knowledge and talent.

Grades are for other people to see. Grades are not for you. The fundamental difference between grades and paychecks is that grades are a tracking mechanism, whereas paychecks are a reward. The problem with redistributing paychecks is that it's unfair. The problem with redistributing grades is that it's retarded.

You can make an argument against progressive taxation without using nonsensical, dumbass analogies. Please do.

[stebo0728]

Right, but I think what you guys are missing is that in life, wealth is compensation for your efforts, right?

In education, we don't need grades. There is no fundamental requirement for them. We could have an educational system without it.

...

Grades are for other people to see. Grades are not for you.

The same could be said for currency. Life could exist without currency, as it did for so long in the past. Currency is as much a "tracker" system for wealth, as grades are for education.

EDIT - In fact I believe you could argue that your progressive system DEPENDS on currency. If I had to barter for everything I needed, and only had what I could provide as trade, a progressive system could not prosper under those conditions. A national currency is essential to a progressive society.

[IBCoupe]

I just resent the implication that I need to be force by the government into Charitable giving either by taxing me (and the government doling out my money to charities) or by tax credits (deducting charitable giving). It is a system that in my opinion, that has help create the problem (of people not taking care of others) rather than correcting the behavior.

Yeah, well, I'm pretty sure that we wouldn't have created welfare, food stamps, HUD, etc. if the free market of charitable organizations had been adequately keeping people from dying in our streets.

Government doesn't arbitrarily create new programs. Government reacts. New York City doesn't have high gun crime rates because of it's gun control laws. It has gun control laws in an attempt to curb high gun crime rates. We don't have high unemployment because we have unemployment benefits. We have unemployment benefits because there are a lot of people without jobs, and we'd like to support them.

I've seen this silent assertion creep into our discussions before, and I want to expose it at the beginning of this conversation, to nip it in the bud. In order to make the claim that government programs create the problems they try to solve, you're going to have to do some nifty mental acrobatics. It's probably easier to make the fundamentally impossible-to-prove claim that they don't help.

[stebo0728]

Yet you continue to assert, despite CZ's pointing out the contrary, that its the responsibility of the government to correct the problem, and at the expense of the liberty its supposed to protect.

[IBCoupe]

Right, but I think what you guys are missing is that in life, wealth is compensation for your efforts, right?

In education, we don't need grades. There is no fundamental requirement for them. We could have an educational system without it.

...

Grades are for other people to see. Grades are not for you.

The same could be said for currency. Life could exist without currency, as it did for so long in the past. Currency is as much a "tracker" system for wealth, as grades are for education.

EDIT - In fact I believe you could argue that your progressive system DEPENDS on currency. If I had to barter for everything I needed, and only had what I could provide as trade, a progressive system could not prosper under those conditions. A national currency is essential to a progressive society.

Currency is a means of simplifying trade, so you don't have to have long chains of barter to get from the service you provide to the product you want.

All income taxation tracks income based on currency, but you're missing the point entirely. Labor compensation serves a fundamentally different purpose than grades. That we can track how much money you make does not mean that you make money in order to be tracked.

The same cannot be said for grades. The reason your analogy sucks is the same reason apples are not comparable to oranges.

[heliochrome85]

The right doesnt want the poor to die, they want the poor to fight their own battles, to better themselves, themselves, not at the behest of other's liberties

Thats whats wrong with the left, they left just LOVE the scare tactics. Those evil republicans want to let the poor die, want to take away old peoples medical care, stop with the rhetoric of fear, and

And please enlighten the rest of us as to the flaw of the analogy.

if you think that everyone has the same ability to improve their socioeconomic standing, then you are sadly delusional. wanna know how much medical school is costing me? try 150k for undergrad and 250k for medical school. oh, and for the next couple years, ill be paying back that while making 46k pretax. the reality is that if you are born black, male and in the bronx, you have little if any chance of making it in this world. so when you say "fight their own battles to better themselves" i take offense. YOU could but that doesnt mean everyone can.

and yes, the republicans DO want the poor to die. wanna show me all the jobs bills they have pushed through? how about all the PRO-MIDDLE CLASS bills they have pushed through.

yeah, cowardice and ignorance. but who am i to complain, ive got a future.

[IBCoupe]

Yet you continue to assert, despite CZ's pointing out the contrary, that its the responsibility of the government to correct the problem, and at the expense of the liberty its supposed to protect.

No, I don't. You're continuing to have trouble with reading comprehension.

[heliochrome85]

Great come back Helio. I am sure that response wins all arguments. Republicans want... Children to die! Women to die! Poor people to die! Old people to die! ahhh Fear mongering at its finest.

sorry, was on my way to the GROCERY STO. even if it is simplistic, its not far from the truth. have you even looked at the ryan plan for medicare? how about the GOP demanding that we not pass the debt limit until more social programs are gutted rather than cut back on defense spending? tell me, how much does that F-35 fighter engine matter to you when your parents are deciding whether they can afford to pay for their meds without Medicare/medicaid?

[heliochrome85]

Yet you continue to assert, despite CZ's pointing out the contrary, that its the responsibility of the government to correct the problem, and at the expense of the liberty its supposed to protect.

No, I don't. You're continuing to have trouble with reading comprehension.

no, he isnt nearly as stupid as his arguments. he is just being intransigent.

[Cold_Zero]

I did say, "that has helped to create the problem" (I know I caught my own spelling mistake), thus implying that there are other factors that equate into the problem. I thought that is what I was implying.

But wouldn’t you concede that if unemployment benefits keep being extended and the compensation out ways the effort of trying to find a job and working, that it would incite people to not find a job? The Danes have a great system for this. If you collect unemployment, you must report to the local unemployment office every so many days. You must show progress in your interview process (which I admit they do help place applicants with companies, part of the socialistic system that they have), but you must also perform community service. Cut the grass at the court house, paint buildings… I guess even the Danes, who have a socialistic system, even want to get something out of your, if you are on the dole.

But I get your drift, dont question a wise and benevolent system (the US Federal Government) that has helped to create an a populace that feels it is entitled to everything.

[heliochrome85]

I did say, "that has helped to create the problem" (I know I caught my own spelling mistake), thus implying that there are other factors that equate into the problem. I thought that is what I was implying.

But wouldn’t you concede that if unemployment benefits keep being extended and the compensation out ways the effort of trying to find a job and working, that it would incite people to not find a job? The Danes have a great system for this. If you collect unemployment, you must report to the local unemployment office every so many days. You must show progress in your interview process (which I admit they do help place applicants with companies, part of the socialistic system that they have), but you must also perform community service. Cut the grass at the court house, paint buildings… I guess even the Danes, who have a socialistic system, even want to get something out of your, if you are on the dole.

the danes also operate on a much smaller popultion and so these sort of programs are managable. you arent advocating for more beurocracy are you ?

[Cold_Zero]

T-
I love you man.. you get it... I was just using them as an example.

[IBCoupe]

The only way the Ryan plan makes any amount of sense is if we have the Patient Protections and Affordable Care Act. The reason Medicare and MediCAID were created is because the people they seek to cover aren't sufficiently profitable for the insurance industry. They weren't being covered, and so the Government said, "We'll pool them together and make it work." And it does. It's a portrait of efficiency.

But Ryan's plan is to break them up and give them vouchers. It's the same stupid long-term memory loss that lets people say "Gun control creates higher gun crime rates!"

And that's why Ryan needs Obamacare. In a world where insurance companies have to provide coverage to anyone that wants it, vouchers are a plausible alternative. It's a terribly inefficient way of going about it, but it theoretically works. Its chances of lowering costs are, at best, just as good as the system we currently have, as it us founded upon some pretty specious assumptions.

It really isn't that great of a plan.

[Cold_Zero]

no, he isnt nearly as stupid as his arguments. he is just being intransigent.

Please see the thread about the Constitution Convention. I dont argue just for the sake of arguing. Where I agree with IB, I am a big enough boy to admit it.
While it may seem like I am whole heartily disagree with IB, I would rather say that I prefer to debate the finer points with him as I think it helps unpack the issues and create a greater understand.

[IBCoupe]

I did say, "that has helped to create the problem" (I know I caught my own spelling mistake), thus implying that there are other factors that equate into the problem. I thought that is what I was implying.

In fairness to you, you didn't blame the government solely. I was just aiming to, as I said, nip that underlying assertion in the bud.

But wouldn’t you concede that if unemployment benefits keep being extended and the compensation out ways the effort of trying to find a job and working, that it would incite people to not find a job?

No, I wouldn't. It's possible that, at the margins, that's right. But I doubt its statistical significance. People arent staying home because they dont want to go to work and unemployment allows them to slack. People are staying home because there aren't enough jobs to go around. The economy is sort if in a slump; you might have heard.

Regarding the Danish system: we used to do that, too. But in the interest of government efficiency, we gave that up. I've advocated for the return of that kind of a system, but for a very different reason: society used to see unemployment lines, and it was forced to care. Gone are those days.

But I get your drift, dont question a wise and benevolent system (the US Federal Government) that has helped to create an a populace that feels it is entitled to everything.

Obviously, you completely missed my drift. Way to suck.

My drift, if you're wondering, was: go ahead and question the policies, but don't argue that eggs come from omelets.

[heliochrome85]

no, he isnt nearly as stupid as his arguments. he is just being intransigent.

Please see the thread about the Constitution Convention. I dont argue just for the sake of arguing. Where I agree with IB, I am a big enough boy to admit it.
While it may seem like I am whole heartily disagree with IB, I would rather say that I prefer to debate the finer points with him as I think it helps unpack the issues and create a greater understand.

he was talking to stebo


but maybe you have a reading comprehension problem too

[Cold_Zero]

It is not that easy to read this forum on an Android phone. Much less type a response.

[heliochrome85]

It is not that easy to read this forum on an Android phone. Much less type a response.

my iphone handles it just great. maybe you should have gotten one

[Cold_Zero]

Picking up an iPad2 right before Great and Holy Thursday services tonight.

[heliochrome85]

Picking up an iPad2 right before Great and Holy Thursday services tonight.

welcome to the dark side.

[IBCoupe]

Hey now, let's not make fun of the Christians. Oh, you mean Apple is the dark side.