Escondido tries to rid itself of undocumented immigrants (again)

[C-Kwik]

The same argument could be used in stating that someone who uses marijuana is more likely to go on to using harder controlled substances simply because he's already walked on the wrong side of the drug laws. You'd never buy that argument, yet you assume that a person who enters this country illegally is more likely to break a second law because he already has violated his 1st. law. The logic isn't there in either case.

I would say there is a factor of morale to think about. A person entering the country from a much less than ideal environment may have an issue of low morale. Which might translate to lower morals than typical of a legal immigrant or US citizen. Add to that that an illegal immigrant is not going to feel as accepted here as a legal immigrant and morale isn't getting any better for such a person. I'd imagine the reality is a lot more complicated though.

[C-Kwik]

Life isn't fair...but the fact that we have illegals in this country in such magnitude has personally effected me and my family on more then one occasion. Numerous times have I had to wait to be seen do to a ER full of illegals. My Aunt was having breathing issues and actually went home because she had waited 9 hrs...a van full of illegals was in an accident.

That's a stretch Brian. Think of it this way. If we lifted the laws for immigration and they were no longer illegal immigrants, it would have simply been a van full of people in an accident and your aunt would have had the same issue to contend with.

[Touge noob S13]

"Illegal immigration leads to higher crime rates, contributes to overcrowded classrooms and failing schools, subjects our hospitals to fiscal hardship and legal residents to substandard quality of care, and destroys our neighborhoods and diminishes our overall quality of life."

I would also include here that illegal immigrants also make up a large number of socals ricers/iLleGaLl StReEt rAcErS

[audtatious]

No, the illegals who are leading a legal life here need some form of legal amnesty progam, just like Obama is suggesting.

Really? Amnesty? We tried that once and it didn't work because the fools in the Gov't did not actually lock down the borders nor enforce existing laws. With Amnesty, the current 12-20 million illegals become 60-80+million because they always add stipulations to the laws where the illegals immediate family may join them. This is what happened in '86.

You mention illegals and corn. Illegals don't pick corn, the farmer uses a harvester to pick corn. Strawberries and grapes are another deal alltogether, but not corn.

Now, what happens when Amnesty is granted? First off, they become US citizens. As a US citizen they cannot be denied appropriate wages by farmers, thus farmers will pay may more for labor, not get a better break. The only way farmers can keep the price of some crops down is by the continued use of illegals. Running illegals back to Mexico or giving amnesty will raise their costs based on US law.

But...but...but.....These illegals DO pay taxes. While true, the amount they pay is less than their burden on our society as a whole. Based on a 2004 Heritage Research report, at the state and local level, the average low skill immigrant household received $14,145 in benefits and services and paid only $5,309 in taxes. That's a net burden of $8,836 per year per family.

Here's a good article that goes over the costs to border states alone due to illegal immigration:

http://www.bordercounties.org/...D.PDF

At this point wouldn't it seem cheaper to force Mexico to fix their problems (or make them part of the US )

[OriginalWheelman]

But the plain and simple fact is it is far easier for many to cross illegaly than to go through the legal process.

And it is easier for me to steal your car than earn the money to buy one of my own. Does that make it right?

[WDRacing]

Maybe you should look at Obama's immigration plan then. Actually, the two are not all that far apart. I've done a little homework for you.

***Guest-Worker Program...Obama supports a guest-worker program with a database of workers, arguing it will improve wages and conditions for all workers.

McCain cosponsored the failed Senate bill that proposed a guest-worker program with a registry and a path to legalization for illegal immigrants.

***Legalization/Amnesty...Obama supports giving illegal immigrants a path to legal residency, similar to Clinton’s position.

As a principal author of the failed immigration bill, which would have given illegal immigrants a path to citizenship, McCain hasstruggled to convince conservatives that his plan is not amnesty.

***Enforcement and Security...Obama voted for comprehensive immigration reform and has stressed that legalizing workers will boost U.S. wages.

McCain, a key player in the immigration reform fight, has moved from pushing the cause of legalization to emphasizing the need for border security first.

***Border Fences...Obama voted for the fence but has since joined Clinton in de-emphasizing his support, which is unpopular in border towns and among Hispanic voters

McCain voted for the fence and has encouraged agreements to allow the government to enter private property to survey land.

Don't make this about the candidates please. We have enough of those threads already. Immigration isn't even close of a big enough issue to swap my vote.

[rn79870]

WTF? Isn't where our country headed with this issue as important enough to look at where the country might be headed? I thought it was a pretty fair comparison.

[audtatious]

Not when most conservatives find fault with Mac's plan too

[WDRacing]

If it was as easy as you imply, they would probably do it. But the plain and simple fact is it is far easier for many to cross illegaly than to go through the legal process.

Think of it this way Brian. What lengths would you go to to put food on the table for your family? If it came down to it, you'ld probably break a few laws too if you had no other option. Hell, you've probably broken a few laws that had nothing to do with survival...

First off, one can justify anything by changing circumstance. Please don't go there Chano, you're a smart dude. What if scenrio's do nothing for a debate about an actual issue.

I never said anything about this was going to be easy. I'm simply applying my idea's towards an actual workable fix. By workable I mean fair to everyone. I will never put an illegal immigrant before my family or any other legal resident...ever. Why, because I have earned that right through deed and by paying my taxes. Color it any way you want to bro, they are ILLEGAL right now and the law says deport them. I'm trying to come up with a way to allow them to stay. Doing a background check and collecting dna/finger prints and running a blood test doesn't take long at all and it secures my childrens safety as well as provides for further background should we get attacked by terrorists. Security of the Nation and my children come first...always.

That's a stretch Brian. Think of it this way. If we lifted the laws for immigration and they were no longer illegal immigrants, it would have simply been a van full of people in an accident and your aunt would have had the same issue to contend with.

Again...that simply isn't the case and as a responsible adult I won't allow that to happen. But if for some reason I was unable to work, I would then qualify for welfare etc because I have paid my taxes and I am a resident.

If the people actually for illegal immigrant rights weren't so closed minded and would accept idea's like mine, granted I thought that up in 2 minutes, we would be far closer to a solution. But the fact is the Liberal leaders and pro Mexican rights activists want ALL or nothing and shake there heads at every solution that doesn't involve the waving of the amnesty wand.

We are overcrowded, under educated and like it or not they increase or crime statistics.

WD

[WDRacing]

WTF? Isn't where our country headed with this issue as important enough to look at where the country might be headed? I thought it was a pretty fair comparison.

Fine I side with McCain...happy now?

My point was for US to discuss what we think, it doesn't matter what the candidates will do, or what they think. They aren't here and what they say is NEVER what they do anyway.

[C-Kwik]

And it is easier for me to steal your car than earn the money to buy one of my own. Does that make it right?

Of course not. But my point was that these people are not inherently criminals. The choice they may be facing is either poverty or a chance at life. Desperation is a huge motivator. And waiting around to die is not unlike suicide. A person's will to live can provide a means to do great things or bad things depending on the choices given to them...

[rn79870]

We are overcrowded, under educated and like it or not they increase or crime statistics.

Brian that's weak becasue, the way you've presented it, one illegal urinating in public increases the crime statistics. That's a weak argument.

The reality is that most want to be law abiding, and are willing to work whenever possible.

[audtatious]

Doing a background check and collecting dna/finger prints and running a blood test doesn't take long at all and it secures my childrens safety as well as provides for further background should we get attacked by terrorists.

WD

Not necessarily. The Mexican Gov does not keep active records of criminals so we can only guarantee what we may have in our own system.

[C-Kwik]

Brian, I am in no way a pro-illegal immigration activist. Look back at my posts and you'll see that they are nothing more than my insights as to why things are the way they are. Plain and simple. The reason I interject this info is that to solve the problem, we must understand the problem and its roots. Problem solving by looking at the end result is usually not as effective as trying to reduce or eliminate the problem by addressing its source.

The 'what if' scenarios are simply to try and put yourself in their shoes for a minute to understand where they are coming from. Looking at the world from one view (usually your own) doesn't help you see the bigger picture. Some of the arguments you've made are very one-sided and don't take into account the reasons that prevent them from being proper contributing members of society here. As an example, the inability to pay income taxes. You argue that they shouldn't be here because they don't contribute. But the simple fact is we have nothing in place to allow them to do so (without breaking other laws as well). Yet you are faulting them for that without considering they have no alternative other than to stay in their country.

[audtatious]

The reality is that most want to be law abiding, and are willing to work whenever possible.

Other than the fact that they broke the law crossing our border, use fake SSN's (identity theft), falsify information for services, drive with falsified insurance information or commits insurance fraud by providing incorrect information, drives with no licenses or falsified licenses, etc.etc.etc....

You are right, they are law abiding.....

Building up the fence that already has budgeting and then enforcing our borders will help them in the long run as eventually their gov will have to step up to resolve their issues and corruption. Until then, we can keep doing the same'ole same'ole and get nowhere but more bankrupt.

[WDRacing]

Brian that's weak becasue, the way you've presented it, one illegal urinating in public increases the crime statistics. That's a weak argument.

The reality is that most want to be law abiding, and are willing to work whenever possible.

It's not weak...its fact. Whether most are law abiding or no...SOME are not. That is all...fact doesn't equal weak Bob. Stop picking apart one liners that I make when the majority of what I've said is about helping the Illegals. Bob...if an illegal breaks a law after he is here it DOES in fact increase the stats. Because if they weren't here the crime wouldn't have taken place. Nowhere did I say Mexicans are all criminals, aside from their initial border crossing. I have acknowledged that some of them are hard working good people. STOP making me into the bad guy...that type of thing never does anything to help a situation.

Brian, I am in no way a pro-illegal immigration activist. Look back at my posts and you'll see that they are nothing more than my insights as to why things are the way they are. Plain and simple. The reason I interject this info is that to solve the problem, we must understand the problem and its roots. Problem solving by looking at the end result is usually not as effective as trying to reduce or eliminate the problem by addressing its source.

The 'what if' scenarios are simply to try and put yourself in their shoes for a minute to understand where they are coming from. Looking at the world from one view (usually your own) doesn't help you see the bigger picture. Some of the arguments you've made are very one-sided and don't take into account the reasons that prevent them from being proper contributing members of society here. As an example, the inability to pay income taxes. You argue that they shouldn't be here because they don't contribute. But the simple fact is we have nothing in place to allow them to do so (without breaking other laws as well). Yet you are faulting them for that without considering they have no alternative other than to stay in their country.

I'm trying to give them the methods to register and pay taxes like we all do. I AM looking at this from there view, but I'm not deluding my own personal feelings in the process. It's because I know they want a better life that I'm even for helping them. I used to just want them gone no matter what.

I'm NOT faulting them for being here...I never said that. I'm for getting them registered and paying taxes and getting real jobs...that is the dream they are pursuing and I happen to be for that.

BUT...I want a fence built. I want it guarded and I want immigrants that don't want to apply for whatever program we implement to be deported and NOT allowed back.

If you want to examine things from the source, it's about stopping the migration at the border. We help the ones here now, mostly because some have lived here their entire lives and have been good citizens, I'll not deny them the right to stay. I just want them to do so in a manner that they are accounted for and that they pay taxes.

The background check and dna/finger printing is simply a means to track people who either skip out on the system, become criminals and simply to do our best to secure the country.

I'm trying to help these people AND maintain the utmost security and safety for my children. At that should be done regardless of there lifestyle while they've been here.

I don't think it's unfair in the least. Its far better then just deporting them right? Middle ground is the key here guys. Keep everyone happy and things work for the best.

[rn79870]

Other than the fact that they broke the law crossing our border, use fake SSN's (identity theft), falsify information for services, drive with falsified insurance information or commits insurance fraud by providing incorrect information, drives with no licenses or falsified licenses, etc.etc.etc....You are right, they are law abiding.....

Crossing the border illegally, yes. They were wrong.Ironic that the Gov of CA wants to let illegals become licensed. Now, that would kill much of your argument. Even Obama has addressed licenses for illegals. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

THe valid argument might be one related to border security, I'd find it hard to fault that one.

[C-Kwik]

I'm trying to give them the methods to register and pay taxes like we all do. I AM looking at this from there view, but I'm not deluding my own personal feelings in the process. It's because I know they want a better life that I'm even for helping them. I used to just want them gone no matter what.

I'm NOT faulting them for being here...I never said that. I'm for getting them registered and paying taxes and getting real jobs...that is the dream they are pursuing and I happen to be for that.

BUT...I want a fence built. I want it guarded and I want immigrants that don't want to apply for whatever program we implement to be deported and NOT allowed back..

Well, I can't argue with that specifically, but I only wish it could be that simple and have no negative effects on our existing society.

If you want to examine things from the source, it's about stopping the migration at the border. We help the ones here now, mostly because some have lived here their entire lives and have been good citizens, I'll not deny them the right to stay. I just want them to do so in a manner that they are accounted for and that they pay taxes.

I think the source of the problem is the conditions in which they live in in their country of origin. But that's an issue that would be much harder and more expensive to address...

Crossing the border illegally, yes. They were wrong.Ironic that the Gov of CA wants to let illegals become licensed. Now, that would kill much of your argument. Even Obama has addressed licenses for illegals. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

THe valid argument might be one related to border security, I'd find it hard to fault that one.

The friend I mentioned actually hates the dems for what they did to the law that almost went through that would allow them to have licenses by now. The issue was over a stupid little mark on the that would indicate that they can not work legally in the states. While it would seem fair to leave it off from a discriminatory standpoint, the problem is that the law didn't pass and they don't have licenses now. What Brian said before aplies here:

But the fact is the Liberal leaders and pro Mexican rights activists want ALL or nothing and shake there heads at every solution that doesn't involve the waving of the amnesty wand.

[rn79870]

That's the problem. Everybody wants all the sand in the sandbox in their own corner. It's too bad.

[audtatious]

Crossing the border illegally, yes. They were wrong.Ironic that the Gov of CA wants to let illegals become licensed. Now, that would kill much of your argument. Even Obama has addressed licenses for illegals. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

That would remove that one perspective from California law only. It does nothing to the point that they are doing it regardless and it IS against the law today. It also won't stop SSN theft for jobs or anything else they need it for. Is there a requirement for insurance carriers to insure motorists that may have valid drivers licenses but not valid SSN's? I know my insurance company requires a valid SSN for insurance.

In general, regardless of what Arnold does to change laws in California, what they are doing is illegal and against the law. Nothing you have stated has changed my stance in the least and you simply pointing out the possibility that CA may change one law means you know it and are deflecting.

Sorry, but they are either breaking the law or they are not. They are breaking the law over and over again after they come here illegally which dismisses your viewpoint that "yet you assume that a person who enters this country illegally is more likely to break a second law because he already has violated his 1st. law. The logic isn't there in either case." because the facts show the complete opposite.

Realize, I am not talking about nor addressing violent crime here.

[C-Kwik]

That would remove that one perspective from California law only. It does nothing to the point that they are doing it regardless and it IS against the law today. It also won't stop SSN theft for jobs or anything else they need it for. Is there a requirement for insurance carriers to insure motorists that may have valid drivers licenses but not valid SSN's? I know my insurance company requires a valid SSN for insurance.

While it won't stop illegal use of SSNs for employment, it will have an impact on the number of uninsured motorists there are in the state. Surely, its not a guarantee that all of the illegal immigrants will buy insurance, but many will. This may reduce UM insurance rates somewhat as those that buy insurance will adding their portion of the premiums into the pool of money used to pay losses.

As for insurance, before I left the industry, there was a movement within the company I worked for to find ways to insure those who couldn't get a license. Not sure how it might have progressed, but based on that I don't think there is a requirement for a license. One of the hurdles might be that there is no driving record on which to base the rates. Hard to be competetive if an insurer had to broadly charge a top premium tier to these drivers. It would likely shy them away from insurance like many other uninsured motorists that can't afford or refuse to pay because their premiums are too high...

In general, regardless of what Arnold does to change laws in California, what they are doing is illegal and against the law. Nothing you have stated has changed my stance in the least and you simply pointing out the possibility that CA may change one law means you know it and are deflecting.

I don't think anyone is saying is not illegal. At this point we appear to be discussing the downsides of how the law affects these illegal immigrants and even the legal residents. Deporting everyone of them is not realistic as they would simply come back and it might result in a negative impact on our economy if its not done in increments. The fact is their presence here is something we need to accept on some level. Finding a way to make it work with our system needs to be addressed.

Sorry, but they are either breaking the law or they are not. They are breaking the law over and over again after they come here illegally which dismisses your viewpoint that "yet you assume that a person who enters this country illegally is more likely to break a second law because he already has violated his 1st. law. The logic isn't there in either case." because the facts show the complete opposite.

The law is black and white, yes. But the reasons for them are not. They certainly assumed a risk coming here and I'm not going to defend the position that they are not breaking the law. One of my beefs is that people take the worst examples of them and then stereotype them based on these examples. Calling them criminals because they broke laws to get here and perhaps to stay here but have done nothing else to harm society in any way. At least any more than any other member of this society. Look back at the link to the stats between crime and illegal immigrants. It states that the repeat offense statistic is only 37% compared to the 67% rate observed of people who are in the states legally.

Realize, I am not talking about nor addressing violent crime here.

If I am understanding what you mean by this then that seems to be a convenient position. If we are discussing the scope of this issue in detail, then we should consider the severity of a crime. More specifically, how much impact a person having to break laws to live a life similar to one of a legal resident has on their willingness to commit what are considered crimes for legal residents.

[audtatious]

While it won't stop illegal use of SSNs for employment, it will have an impact on the number of uninsured motorists there are in the state.

From an unisured motorist perspective it could well have an impact assuming CA has no SSN requirement. I know my carrier requires it as they validate it and then use it for phone-in validation of who I am.

I don't think anyone is saying is not illegal. At this point we appear to be discussing the downsides of how the law affects these illegal immigrants and even the legal residents. Deporting everyone of them is not realistic as they would simply come back and it might result in a negative impact on our economy if its not done in increments. The fact is their presence here is something we need to accept on some level. Finding a way to make it work with our system needs to be addressed.

If it is too difficult to get a job here based on legal status or validated SSN then they will leave on their own for the most part. No need to initiate some nightmare deportation sweep that will cause more problems. Realize I accept legal immigrants with open arms regardless of where they come from and I sympathise with those who feel they must come here and break our laws. If there was not so much of a burden on our society I would say to allow more in legally. But the fact remains that they stay on the fringe and are costing us quite a pretty penny that should be utilized to fix our own problems first. We have severe education issues and inner city issues that would be better resolved with the billions and billions of dollars that illegal immigration is causing us. Amnesty for them all is not a viable solution either.

The law is black and white, yes. But the reasons for them are not. They certainly assumed a risk coming here and I'm not going to defend the position that they are not breaking the law. One of my beefs is that people take the worst examples of them and then stereotype them based on these examples. Calling them criminals because they broke laws to get here and perhaps to stay here but have done nothing else to harm society in any way. At least any more than any other member of this society. Look back at the link to the stats between crime and illegal immigrants. It states that the repeat offense statistic is only 37% compared to the 67% rate observed of people who are in the states legally.

I read the report. My statement at the end of my above post reflected that I was not claiming that they necessarily had a higher rate (other than the offences above which they are usually not caught for) than the citizenry. Of course, the opposite view is if they were not here then the crimes they do commit would have never happened in the first place.

If I am understanding what you mean by this then that seems to be a convenient position. If we are discussing the scope of this issue in detail, then we should consider the severity of a crime. More specifically, how much impact a person having to break laws to live a life similar to one of a legal resident has on their willingness to commit what are considered crimes for legal residents.

The crimes they commit to get here and to sustain their being here is simply a means for them to suck our economy dry. Sure, they somewhat give back with taxes and labor, but the burden to the taxpayer is far greater than what they pay back in. If they are having a problem in their own country, shouldn't they work to resolve it? Instead, they come over here and break our laws or deposit babies over here simply to have a better life off of our backs. Hospitals are closing down, clinics are full or filling up in a large number of areas, school systems are having major issues with non-english kids in english speaking classrooms, etc etc. Isn't that a pretty big burden being forced upon our citizens? While you may think it's not fair to them, what about the US citizen who no longer has a regional hospital because it is shut down or has kids in school who are falling behind because the teachers are too busy trying to teach the spanish speaking kids the english language to actually teach them or the highschool kid who can't find a job because the jobs they would normally take are all filled with illegals or when there are no apartments for rent when they get out of school and are ready to start a life? Where is the concern for our own?

[AZhitman]

Where is the concern for our own?

Good point.

You know, we have an interesting parallel here... While the left is screaming for us to leave the Iraqi people to their misery, those same people are clamoring for Mexican nationals to be taken care of.

See the problem here?

If we're gonna be isolationist, let's at least be fair about it.

[AZhitman]

Interesting side note:

You guys all probably know I run the Office of Special Invesigations for a large state agency... It's an internal affairs office, a one-man show (budget cuts), and it's perpetually swamped.

Anyhow, i just completed a lengthy investigation on a high-ranking employee who was "allegedly" stealing certified birth certificates (one of our departments is Vital Records)... The allegation from my informant was that they were being made available for $1000 a pop... In addition, sometimes customers in that office inadvertently leave behind other documents (drivers licenses, SS cards), and those would get secured for "safe keeping" by our alleged perp. So, for an ADDITIONAL grand, you'd get a BC with a SSN and name, all matching - Everything you need to start a new life in the good ol' US of A.

All in all we estimate 30 to 100 documents made it to the streets. Termination resulted, of course, with no admission, and the Feds have my case now...

Just an example of the challenges we're up against.

In my interview with the alleged, I mentioned that he'd better pray his a$$ off that one of his "customers" isn't the next Mohammed Atta.

As far as I'm concerned, he's committed treason and is a domestic terrorlst. But my authority drops off after the internal process is completed.

[skylndrftr]

Man Greg I have stayed out of this whole thread but I feel the need to point out there are many more groups of illegal immigrants than those from Mexico, however as I have come to see here in my short time in AZ, theres only one group of people that are considered illegal immigrants and as a hispanic its kinda insulting to deal with...

[WDRacing]

Man Greg I have stayed out of this whole thread but I feel the need to point out there are many more groups of illegal immigrants than those from Mexico, however as I have come to see here in my short time in AZ, theres only one group of people that are considered illegal immigrants and as a hispanic its kinda insulting to deal with...

That is definitely true...

But what nationality makes up 90% of the actual illegal immigrant populace? They are not Swedish...

If you think that it's hard to deal with, then shouldn't you be looking at the illegal populace that is placing you in this situation and not the people that are trying to simply enforce the laws that are already in place?

When my family came off the boat we weren't welcomed with open arms either. There were signs posted all over that said..."No Dogs No Irish Allowed"...you won't see a single one of those anywhere these days because we have come leaps and bounds in the civil rights department.

WD

[rn79870]

But what nationality makes up 90% of the actual illegal immigrant populace? They are not Swedish...

WD

South American isn't a nationality Brian.

[skylndrftr]

The issue isn't the people that ARE trying to enforce the laws (and believe me I support this).

The issue is with the people who either completely misunderstand the law/the issue or are using it as an excuse for their personal hateful bias.

The law is the law, but when the law is used for the harrasment of a group of people thats not what law enforcement, thats in fact a very bad thing for the survival of justice and law in this coutnry.

Anecdotal evidence of the day:My sisteris taking some advanced summer school classes due to a health issue this year. Well she got sent to the principals because a substitute teacher accused her of lieing about her last name ('Fernandez') because she didn't 'Look Mexican (We're 1/2 Cuban) (this is what got me going yesterday so I apologize for the angry post)

[WDRacing]

Semantics when taken in context with what I meant...

[rn79870]

Interesting side note:

You guys all probably know I run the Office of Special Invesigations for a large state agency... It's an internal affairs office, a one-man show (budget cuts), and it's perpetually swamped.

Anyhow, i just completed a lengthy investigation on a high-ranking employee who was "allegedly" stealing certified birth certificates (one of our departments is Vital Records)... The allegation from my informant was that they were being made available for $1000 a pop... In addition, sometimes customers in that office inadvertently leave behind other documents (drivers licenses, SS cards), and those would get secured for "safe keeping" by our alleged perp. So, for an ADDITIONAL grand, you'd get a BC with a SSN and name, all matching - Everything you need to start a new life in the good ol' US of A.

All in all we estimate 30 to 100 documents made it to the streets. Termination resulted, of course, with no admission, and the Feds have my case now...

Just an example of the challenges we're up against.

In my interview with the alleged, I mentioned that he'd better pray his a$$ off that one of his "customers" isn't the next Mohammed Atta.

As far as I'm concerned, he's committed treason and is a domestic terrorlst. But my authority drops off after the internal process is completed.

Good job Greg, good job. I hope the feds they hang the guy.