EPA accuses Volkswagen, Audi of evading emission laws

[darylzero]

I realize your beef is more with the EPA and their standards, but the fact remains that VW lied to their customers and the EPA about the product that they were building, and selling at a premium.

From what I've read, VW said they want to recall all 11 million cars. the problem is I don't think they have a fix that'll maintain their fuel mileage or power ratings. I still think Veedub'll end up buying back many of the half million US cars because if the fix results in lower mileage/power, VW will still risk lawsuits by disgruntled owners. Buying them back eliminates the lawsuits and makes it a one time charge... well unless they make insultingly low offers to buy them back.

If they buy them back in the US then they would probably have to do the same thing in Europe and they don't have enough money to buy back all 11 million cars.

[OriginalWheelman]

It honestly seems like VW had the recall ready and waiting for when they go caught. I'd expect an ECU flash and a severe power drop. The engines can already make emissions for the tests with the cheater software. They're just going to be slower. People are not going to like it.

[Bubba1]

If they buy them back in the US then they would probably have to do the same thing in Europe and they don't have enough money to buy back all 11 million cars.

Maybe yes, maybe no, but I'm talking about the half million sold in the US, which are not all new. Many date back to 2009, which are now worth maybe $10K? Might end up cheaper for VW to buy the older ones back than the cost to fix plus expected lawsuits due to bad mileage/less power/lower resale value.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Buy them back, re-sell them in Africa and elsewhere with less strict emissions.

They could also go the "fix it for real" route... adding EGR coolers, urea/DEF injection systems, etc. That would be the best thing for me

[darylzero]

It honestly seems like VW had the recall ready and waiting for when they go caught. I'd expect an ECU flash and a severe power drop. The engines can already make emissions for the tests with the cheater software. They're just going to be slower. People are not going to like it.

Yeah it's weird that the 2016 models are not affected. It's like the EPA warned VW a while ago and said make sure your 2016's pass because you are going to be screwed when we announce this.

[OriginalWheelman]

Yeah it's weird that the 2016 models are not affected. It's like the EPA warned VW a while ago and said make sure your 2016's pass because you are going to be screwed when we announce this.

VW's official response to the EPA.

[Desert Rat]

It sucks. Diesels were just about ready to overcome all the bad press they got in the 80s when GM built their run of garbage SBC converted diesels. Now it starts all over again. Diesel cars will never get a good foothold in this country now.

It's gonna cost VW a LOT of money and it might even boot them from the US market.

[OriginalWheelman]

And I disagree MoD. Every other manufacturer made cars that conformed, but couldn't perform. VW told a lot of people that those cars were conforming AND fast. That is why they sold. It's fraud pure and simple. It's not like VW openly said 'f*** the Police' and just made the car with no regard for emissions. They aren't proud rebels leading a revolution. They're underhanded con artists who got caught by pretending to give the people what they want.

Also there is this:

VW was among several automakers that lobbied the administration of George W. Bush to secure around $50 million in tax breaks under an incentive program that included the first wave of VW Jetta TDI drivers in the United States.

[...] U.S. prosecutors would need to show that VW executives intentionally made fraudulent claims about their cars’ emissions as part of the effort to win the tax break, the lawyers said.

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagens-tdi-fix ... 1733778333

[OriginalWheelman]

1.2 million vehicles in the UK

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34399503

[MinisterofDOOM]

CUSTOMERS (the ones everyone is making out to be the victim here) never asked VW to promise any specific emissions standards.

VW touted "clean diesel", put stickers on cars that said such, and sold cars to VW owners (who are mostly hipsters that actually care about the environment) that were obviously supposed to be in compliance with emissions regulations at the time of sale. So no, they didn't directly ask VW to promise they meet emissions standards, because it is implied.
How pissed would you be if you went out and bought a new car, and it failed an emissions test the very first time it was tested. Then the state gave you a 30 day "fix it" window before being tested again. If it didn't pass, you weren't allowed to register it.
Now, at this point, you'd expect the car company to make it right by any means necessary. Replace your cat, bring the car in, check everything out, pay for your re-test, etc. But that's still a whole load of s*** that you shouldn't have had to deal with in the first place.

I realize your beef is more with the EPA and their standards, but the fact remains that VW lied to their customers and the EPA about the product that they were building, and selling at a premium.

And I disagree MoD. Every other manufacturer made cars that conformed, but couldn't perform. VW told a lot of people that those cars were conforming AND fast. That is why they sold. It's fraud pure and simple. It's not like VW openly said 'f*** the Police' and just made the car with no regard for emissions. They aren't proud rebels leading a revolution. They're underhanded con artists who got caught by pretending to give the people what they want.

Also there is this:

VW was among several automakers that lobbied the administration of George W. Bush to secure around $50 million in tax breaks under an incentive program that included the first wave of VW Jetta TDI drivers in the United States.

[...] U.S. prosecutors would need to show that VW executives intentionally made fraudulent claims about their cars’ emissions as part of the effort to win the tax break, the lawyers said.

You guys are certainly right. If I were a customer who actually cared about emissions I'd be a different person, but I'd also be pissed if I'd bought a TDI VW under those auspices. However, I'm not that person, and I believe quite differently.

I still just can't get past the fact that these promises shouldn't have been a necessary part of the business model in the first place.

Yes, lots of other automakers build cars that meet the standards AND perform well, but that cost gets passed on, too. Ask a Dodge guy whether he'd rather have a 12 valve or 24 valve Cummins and you'll get one answer every time. But even the 24 valve even got away urea-free (though now you have to wonder how...) for a model year or two, but now it's laden with legislated garbage. More cost, more complexity, more to go wrong, and more "promises" to make that shouldn't be needed in the first place.

What pisses me off is that, whether the automaker cheats or not, it's us as car owners who get stuck with the ultimate results. Either we get screwed out of a car we thought we were buying, or we pay more, or we can't register our cars because they don't pass a test we never agreed to in the first place. It's supreme BS. If my airbags fail it's a warranty item, but if I don't pass emissions it's my pocket that takes the hit. Explain that BS to me. And airbags actually benefit ME, not some organization trying to make the world better by controlling everything in sight until it can't be controlled anymore. I can't even alter MY OWN VEHICLE's emissions equipment because SOMEONE ELSE agreed to build the car to standards SOMEONE ELSE invented. NOT OKAY.

And now it's led to this. Dishonesty in effort to keep up with a game nobody actually wants to play.

VW scrwed up, bigtime. But if we come away from this without re-evaluating the rules themselves we're morons. Unfortunately, with all the extremist activism that drives our fearmongering world, I can only imagine if there is change it'll be for the worse, not for the better.

[Ou8roger2]

This isn't just about passing Emission Standards, this is bigger than that. A major car manufacturer Sold their customers a fake bill of goods, plain and simple. They lined their pockets with millions in profit by lying to their customers, does this not bother you? Are you that morally bankrupt? I should hope not. I still can't believe how there are people defending this indefensible company, they should get prison time for what they've done.

[Dattebayo]

Also, that bit about emissions equipment not benefiting you is short-sighted, Chris. You may as well jump on the bandwagon that says that global change doesn't exist if you're gonna claim all that now.

[numbnuts240]

idk how i fudged that up

[Buzzman]

Just read an article in today's paper that VW sales in September (I'm in Canada), have gone down the s***.
Gee, what a surprise.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Also, that bit about emissions equipment not benefiting you is short-sighted, Chris. You may as well jump on the bandwagon that says that global change doesn't exist if you're gonna claim all that now.

Even with this in mind, I still don't see the need for legal backing and arbitrary goalsetting. I'm a firm believer that, as with safety and fuel economy, the market would correct itself more quickly and effectively WITHOUT the burden of arbitrary legislation. People want clean cars. You think automakers will (on the large) build unclean cars that will harm business? This very situation proves that to do so would be foolish. Without imaginary rules, I don't think they would. With imaginary rules leaving the binary choice of comply or cheat, quite possibly. Social, economical, and business history have all demonstrated quite thoroughly that making something mandatory is the best way to undermine its effectiveness. Allow a good idea to realize itself on a healthy timeframe instead of forcing people to rush solutions based on artificial expectations. Pretty basic stuff on both a societal and engineering level.

There's the argument "VW DID cheat." You can't cheat a game that doesn't exist. Why fake it when there's no reward for cheating? Make it a race to build the most desirable product and you will get everyone improving of their own accord and not due to external impositions. Basic psychology shows that the most successful form of motivation is intrinsic, not extrinsic. MAKE people be perfect and you'll miss. Give them a reason to want to be perfect and you'll hit a whole lot closer. Imaginary target numbers aren't postive motivation and they're not intrinsic. They are a poor incentive.

Made up rules from reactionary fools don't solve problems, they create new ones. This is an example of that process in action. That's not a defense of VW nor an excuse of what was done. It's identifying a correllation between a broken system that existed before and the actions of parties beholden to that system.

It's like telling your factory line workers "get 15% more efficient and we'll give you a raise." They will find the first shortcut to measurable 15% and it is guaranteed to come at a cost elsewhere. You can't just mandate perfection into existence. Because their goal is NOT becoming more efficient. Their goal is a raise. If they didn't care about the 15% in the first place, the raise changes nothing. You merely trade gains and come out no further ahead.

They (people/groups creating needless rules) want:
Clean
Efficient
Reliable
Safe
Fault-proof (look at how recalls are interpreted now--a recall is a POSITIVE, RESPONSIBLE reaction to an inevitable imperfection, and yet every new recalls spawns a horde of "Look at these irresponsible scumbag" articles bemoaning the issue. Covering it up a-la GM is wrong, but now ALL recalls come with a stigma attached and it's yet another sign of our lemming cliff-diver social overeagerness)

YOU CANNOT HAVE ALL THOSE THINGS AT ONCE. But different parties are REQUIRING perfection in each of those conflicting areas--and here's the key--without even talking to each-other. There's NO vision of the overall picture. NOBODY is keeping those people in check. Because everyone's so naiive as to stop at "don't you want to make things better?" Of course I do. I'm simply pragmatic enough to realize when we're asking so much at once that we're going to collapse the crane and everything hanging from it.

It was always a no-win. We were going to reach this point eventually, with some corner of that impossible-sided polygon of needs. What VW did, right or wrong, needs to be a highlight of that reality. It doesn't need to be a humanitarian scandal. It needs to be a process failure showing itself.

[txchamps]

No victims?

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-analysis-vw-ev ... nance.html

Of course, you can make numbers do and say anything, and certain types of people would would dismiss this as "agenda driven", but the fact remains -- pollution ultimately kills. So, deliberately misrepresenting how much your product pollutes (for monetary gain) is not some innocent and laughable dodge -- this is a life-and-death matter.

Not to mention the financial damage that this has caused, not just to owners, but to the market place. Think pension plans, insurance portfolios, employee stock sharing, IRA's, etc. When I said millions of victims, I meant it.

[asoomal]

Seems like everybody was on the same.boat.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... e-does-it/

[OriginalWheelman]

Here's how they did it. Consumer Reports duplicated the cheat and tested.

So Consumer Reports decided to put a 2015 Volkswagen Jetta TDI and a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI to the test. To activate the car’s cheat mode, they pumped the accelerator pedal 5 times while the ignition was in the “on position” but the engine was off. To avoid being “kicked out” of the cheat mode when the car noticed the rear, undriven wheels spinning, CR simply unplugged the rear wheel speed sensors. Simple as that. Cheat mode activated.

Ingenious, and definitely intentional.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=189&v=zUPnAA_Y3XI[/youtube]

[Jesda]

Seems like everybody was on the same.boat.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/ca ... e-does-it/

Yes, but no. In those other examples, it was due to the EU's testing methods. It wasn't because of outright fraud by a manufacturer.