eManage Guys, wonder twin powers, activate!

[Chezedik]

Alright, so I want to monitor timing control by use of a EGT, and use UEGO for fuel monitoring. I know that eManage can accept a 5v input. What I need to know is if eManage can use a 5v EGT probe for any sort of usable input. Does anyone know?

[teddy]

I do not think you can wire in the EGT to bring up readings in the support tool(although I may be wrong). As far as I know, the emanage can accept inputs from a pressure sensor, wideband, knock meter, ignition harness, and water temp sensor. Why not just use the ignition harness to datalog the info?

[KATwo40]

Trying to use EGT to interpret timing is probably the most shady thing I've heard. EGT can rise just because it's hot outside, even when the ECU is pulling timing to compensate for the density change in the air at the MAF. Furthermore, EGT can rise above avg. if you're boosting in 4th or 5th gear up a steady grade, as opposed to down the steady grade. EGT is going to vary so much depending on engine load, there's no way you could properly calibrate the readings to be relative to ignition timing.

[smokey8611]

does anyone have A KA-T ignition map? Shoot for that matter , the correct way to install the ignition harness

[Chezedik]

That would be nice. I bet Devious does, can we hear from him?

[Chezedik]

So what am I supposed to do to get accurate feedback on timing, just guesstimate?

[smokey8611]

im still trying to figure out what wire to hook the emanage ignition too

[BlackHat]

I can't really speak for the e-manage, but the msefi can get timing from the CAS wheel on the 240. Only prob with it is you have to just pull the 4 slot input.(It's a dual optical CAS wheel that reads a 4 slot inner wheel and 360 slot outer) The only other option I found was a custom crank sensor.... like a Ford EDIS setup. But I would guess the E-manage would have to be able to use SAW to do that...

The CAS on a 91-98 ka is cam driven from what I can tell so you'll have the possibility of chain slack. Shouldn't hurt too much though, the stock ecu uses it with seemingly no prob.

Not sure if that's what you were looking for or not.

[smokey8611]

(lol i didnt understand a anything you just typed but...)The CAS? I might try to wire my emange in the CAS wire then. Im willing to try anything cause there is alot of mis-information on how to wire it up

[BlackHat]

heh, no prob. I'm still trying to get a good grip on all of this too.

msefi = MegaSquirt Electronic fuel injection... It's a stand alone ecu basically.

I don't know much about emanage, but I would think it just does fuel tables. It doesn't get connected directly to the injectors though, right? I'm not sure how that would work, but for the msefi you need to give it timing info even if you're just running fuel off of it (leaving ignition on the stock ecu). You can get that from the Crank angle sensor in the dizzy (distributor).

The 240sx CAS wheel has basically, two outputs.

One is TDC on Compression stroke (CAS wheel rotates 1/2 the speed of the crank) for each cylinder. There's one slot for each cylinder and cylinder 1 is a little wider than the others. This is the one msefi needs if you use the stock CAS wheel.

The other is a 360 slot output that from what I gather is used to determine misfires and other problems.

I don't know if E-Manage can accept this input or not. It's a square wavelength output and I forget the voltage on it.

The only problem is, I know the stock ECU needs this input also... Don't know what the effects of splicing into the line would be. I'm also not sure which wires you would need to connect to (I haven't gotten around to installing my msefi yet).

I wish I could be more help. As it is I don't know what inputs the E-manage will accept.

[deviousKA]

I dont have an ignition map that would do any good for an emanage setup.

Arent the maps based off of correction? As in, the values will be like -1, -2, -3 and so on, as boost increases over atmospheric. That would be really easy to set up and you guys shouldnt have a problem.

[Chezedik]

Yeah, and I think I may just have to get the MAP sensor adaptor for that reason. But then again, if I just get a PROM and pull a little with it, then I can put a little more with emanage and be good (since it only will work in 1 degree increments.

[deviousKA]

You could do a lot of changes with a rom tune that would help you when using the emanage, and you could do them quick because no need for perfection.

You can drop timing, re arrange scales, compensate for injectors/maf etc., so that the piggyback/alternate control does not have to throw things so far out of spec.

Also you can disable/change the knock maps so that if the ecu does throw knock, the tuning does not change (not easy to tune out detonation on the main map when its running on the knock map), confusing the user.

When the ecu reverts to the knock maps it takes a while before it will go back to the mains, Id guess thats why I hear some people just remove their battery connection to clear it while tuning. Its better to just take care of this the proper way.

[Edub1]

So what am I supposed to do to get accurate feedback on timing, just guesstimate?

You'll grow old waiting for an answer to that question. One guy I was speaking with told me the only way is to dyno it over and over while creeping the timing up - translation pay him $1,000. That's why I advocate letting the piggyback handle it on a per PSI basis.

Buy the electronic Greddy boost gauge; it comes with the sensor. Set it to pull .5 or .75 deg per Lb. If you want a few degrees, say .25/Lb off the high load areas of the base tune, that is easy to do.

[Chezedik]

So it will link up with Emanage? Does that use up my 5v input?

[Edub1]

The Greddy electronic boost gauge uses the same pressure sensor as the Emanage. You run a hose from the mannifold to the sensor and wire the sensor to both the gauge and the Emanage. Plus, this puts the unit and the gauge in perfect sync.

If you are talking about an egt sensor that's something different. But I agree with the others who said egt doesn't do much tuning wise. Just get the fuel right and let the computer handle the timing - it should do a great job.

[deviousKA]

You monitor your timing using Consult.

This will show you the timing advance output, in this case, it would show the value before it is changed by the piggyback.

[Edub1]

Devious, my understanding is that Consult will report the cell value from the ECU map.

We are still in part, assuming we know the actual degrees of timing.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Chezedik]

On some versions, you can pull your maps too, right?

[deviousKA]

Edub, chill with the "we" reference, if you have questions just ask. The ka24e and de systems are quite different although they seem similar on the surface and easy to confuse. They use different processors from different manufactures and one is 8 bit, one is 16bit.

The ka24de:Timing map cell value equals actual timing advance btdc (with base timing already taken into account) when engine is at full operating temperature, otherwise it is slightly adjusted. This full 16x16 map applies to open throttle only, closed throttle has its own small table dependent on rpm.

Consult timing monitoring provides the same timing value as the the ecu is reading from the map, if it is at temperature. Otherwise, if the engine is still cold or, overheating, a small correction will be applied and will be reflected properly in the consult timing output. So, the consult readout will always tell you the actual overall timing advance, as long as the distributor is not adjusted from its base idle 20 degree setting.

Ka24e:Timing map cell equals actual timing timing advance btdc, unless it is interpolating between the main and the low octane ignition map. The ka24e system has an earlier type of knock/low octane detection feedback and does some interpolation or "averaging" between the two maps dependent on some egr temp and o2 feedback (assumed). This function can be removed.

The U12 ka24e ecu supports consult as well as timing monitoring. Where you are becoming confused is when you hear us talk about this consult timing output being incorrect. The conversion/offset applied to the timing data streaming from the ecu, in order to make it understandable, is incorrect for this particular ecu. The ka24e ecu uses 30 degree different setting.

Chezedik, yes you can pull your maps with consult. You actually can "dump" the entire binary file from any given consult-capable ecu (tuned or otherwise). This file dumps out in its entirety and can be reflashed to a daughterboard, or in the case of the ka24e, a single chip.

JWT, Enthalpy, and most other tuners (Redshift, shady ebayers, etc) do not know how to disable this function of the code, so you can freely download their tune with nothing else but a pc and a consult adapter.

[Edub1]

I'm not quite sure what to make of that explaination although I appreciate the input.

It appears that you agree that the map is assumed to be actual timing. Although, I don't know what is meant below.

Where you are becoming confused is when you hear us talk about this consult timing output being incorrect. The conversion/offset applied to the timing data streaming from the ecu, in order to make it understandable, is incorrect for this particular ecu. The ka24e ecu uses 30 degree different setting.

Unless I am mistaken, nobody has demonstrated a conclusive, quantitative link between those maps and actual timing.

If this has been done, how? Does consult measure directly and physicaly the actual degees of timing or doesn't it?

Bottom line, has anybody conducted an experiment in which the ignition maps are altered by say 5 degees while an actual, physical timing measurement is recorded and found to be an actual 5 degrees?

[deviousKA]

There is no publicly available software with the correct settings for the ka24e timing output, there will be in a couple months but thats about all I can say, be patient.

Timing along with all of the other consult data is streamed out the ecu with a serial/uart function of the processor. This data must be parsed and converted correctly before being displayed, in the software. Check consult protocol PDF for more information.

The offset for timing is changed for a couple different nissan ecus, most are 110-value, some are 70-value, the ka24e is 80-value.

I cannot release my work because it is bound in a new software application I am betatesting for the US market. No other software will be able to take advantage of the information, but still I cannot release much more than this.

[BlackHat]

I'm gonna take a stab at this... You're saying that the KA24DE consult port will give the correct adjusted timing to the eManage and the KA24E won't? Rather, the eManage can only "decode" the correct signal out of the DOHC and not the SOHC?

I can understand the proprietary signal thing. I guess the ECU's really went through a big change when the 240 switched to the DOHC. Still a little confusing, you'd think they'd standardize the output on the consult port so they wouldn't have to make a bunch of changes to their diagnostic equipment.

Or am I missing what you're saying too?

[Edub1]

That's a good question. The Emanage is reading actual data from the vehicle's electrical system/ECU output. It is hard wired.

Not exactely what we are talking about but it brings to mind a good idea for data collection.

I wonder if the Emanage shows actual timing data or just the change it is making.

[Edub1]

There is no publicly available software with the correct settings for the ka24e timing output, there will be in a couple months but thats about all I can say, be patient.

Timing along with all of the other consult data is streamed out the ecu with a serial/uart function of the processor. This data must be parsed and converted correctly before being displayed, in the software. Check consult protocol PDF for more information.

The offset for timing is changed for a couple different nissan ecus, most are 110-value, some are 70-value, the ka24e is 80-value.

I cannot release my work because it is bound in a new software application I am betatesting for the US market. No other software will be able to take advantage of the information, but still I cannot release much more than this.

So it's software you are working on. I knew it was something. Good for you, I hope it does well.

Untill then, what do you mean by timing offset?

If there is currently no software that correctly handles the KA24E timing, as you stated, don't you think it would be good to make people aware of this instead of suggesting that it's a piece of cake.

Besides, using Consult requires a Stanza ECU, Stanza bin & ADR, special cable and modification to the wiring harness. Not exactely a trivial matter.

I understand that you want to build interest in DIY tuning and when your software is ready I'm sure it will rock. Perhaps you should also consider a bundle containing the aformentioned parts. But untill then, it isn't fair or honest to drop vague and ambiguous information suggesting that tuning these motors is so trivial and well established when it is neither - at least not yet.

At the very least this will cause people to waste a lot of time & money, as I have. It may also result in blown motors. This is not the best way to buld interest or customer confidence.

How about simply suggesting that people wait for the software.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

im still trying to figure out what wire to hook the emanage ignition too

so it goes to the crank angle sensor? Which pin is that? I wrote this wiring diagram for mohdparts.com http://www.mohdparts.com/emana...t.gifbut im not gonna lie, ignition was just a stab in the dark..

[BlackHat]

It sounds to me like it needs to go to the consult port to pull timing. That way it gets timing that has been adjusted by the ECU. The CAS wheel would just be giving TDC signals.

Don't take my word on that, but from the conversation that's what I'm gathering.

[Chezedik]

No, all they are saying is that while KA24e uses actual timing based on crank position, the DE only uses advance + base. Meaning that using emanage and consult to do timing would be easier to decipher.

[BlackHat]

So with a KA24E, the consult would supply just the spark event? If the dizzy was set to 15* it would just show a signal for when that event took place?

The KA24DE would show the actual advance the ECU was using? You say plus base, but how could the consult report base when it doesn't know for sure what it is? or does it just assume that base = 15* (or whatever suggested is for the KA24DE).

Sorry to keep thread jacking...

[Iamjohnhayes]

im still trying to figure out what wire to hook the emanage ignition too

Ok as usual sorry about any thread jacking but:

I am currently wiring in my emanage ultimate and I am trying to figure out which CAS signal to take for the ignition b/c i have to cut one and route it through the ultimate that way the emanage can change my timing when i want it to. Also which pin would i use because i have the ECCS wiring diagram from ALL-DATA (matches fsm diagram) and the two outputs are bridged across two ecu pins each.