E85 Conversion and Tuning Thread

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Re: (drape123)

Postby LEMHEAD16 » Tue May 06, 2008 9:31 am

Jason

when you say "Great for smog" what exactly do you mean.

Run it on pure E85 or mix gas and E85 for the test.

I'd like to know because I have to pass smog in a few months and I know my 240 won't without a wink and a handshake

hit up my email if you don't want to discuss it on the boards

Joshuadcollins(at)gmail.com


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Re: (LEMHEAD16)

Postby WDRacing » Tue May 06, 2008 12:45 pm

Its the same thing as running the car low on petro and adding 2 gallons of denatured alcohol. Alky releases less hydrocarbons when burned and it's an oxygenate. Which means it releases oxygen when burned.

Win Win...

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Re: (WDRacing)

Postby CrazyInteg » Thu May 08, 2008 8:21 am

drape123 I want to know your opinion. E85 is about $1 cheaper per gallon than premium here and we have about 5 stations in my city that sell it at a wide variety of prices.

So in your opinion can I buy 33% larger injectors (555 -> 740), adjust the FPR to get the proper AFR and call it a day? Would I want to advance my timing a degree or two? I know that it's not ideal for daily driving, but I would just be running rich which isn't horrible.

Specs : fully built SR, upgraded turbo, Enthalpy tune, Tomei FPR, Walboro 255 pump

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Re: (CrazyInteg)

Postby WDRacing » Thu May 08, 2008 8:35 am

No one can say exactly what will and won't work since AFR's will be slightly different on every setup. Especially with something running boost already. But in theory adding 30% across the board will work.

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Re: (WDRacing)

Postby nelson8708 » Thu May 08, 2008 8:58 am

i got the civic tuned for e85 last week.....i guess my estimate of by the end of march was off..lol. The stock injector duty cycle is about 60% @ wot and now on e85 its abour 85% so we had to increase it 25%. I replaced the fuel filter a week before the conversion so i probably wont change it for a couple thousand miles. I am not even sure i am going to continue running e85 since the guy who tuned it messed up my idle some how. It does the gay honda idle between 1500-1600rpm. Its really freaking annoying. But since gas just went up to 3.89 for regular i guess i will just have to deal with the idle and pay 3.13 for e85. Its hard to tell since i had to get on it quite a few times but my guess is i am getting some where between 22-25mpg. I wont know until i run a full tank of it through.

I have a quick question though. When he tuned it he disabled the stock o2 sensor but, i made him re-enable it before he burned my final chip. I wanted to keep it for small changes in the weather such as air temp. and humidity. He said that if i run the o2 sensor it will make me run lean because of the difference between gas and e85 afr's, but since the o2 sensor is searching for 1 lamba that would be the correct whether its e85 or gas right?

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Postby WDRacing » Thu May 08, 2008 9:42 am

.8 Lamda I thought?

*EDIT*

Sorry we're talking idle, 1 is on the money for stoich. Is the ECU MAP or MAF...MAP huh...hate you.

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Re: (WDRacing)

Postby nelson8708 » Thu May 08, 2008 11:18 am

its not like it boosted so map or mafs i wouldn't care. He had a emulator, crome pro, map trace and live editing....the tune took about 10 minutes after we put e85 in it. The stock o2 is used under light loads so its searching for 1 at idle and cruising probably. I wish nissan's were map so i dont have to recirulate the bov and it would be much easier to tune.

Some guy was talking about using HHO gas system or some thing like that in the 240sx general section. It caught my interest because of how simple the setup is. That might be something for me to look into instead or running the e85.....or even better.....use them both. Pay 2.70 for e85 while still getting regular gas mpg.

EDIT:

check it out.

http://www.runyourcarwithwater...H0-Ug

they want 50$ for a how to manual but, i suspect i can find out how to make a system for free if i search.
Modified by nelson8708 at 5:38 PM 5/8/2008

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Re: (KATwo40)

Postby jsherm007 » Thu May 08, 2008 6:59 pm

I know this is a bit off topic. But has anyone run E85 in a Rogue yet? I'm contemplating it on mine. I have a scan gauge and I can track the engine details and wondering if a stock Rogue could handle it, didn't know how simiar the rogue injectors were to the armada's which run E85.. Thoughts?

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Re: (jsherm007)

Postby WDRacing » Fri May 09, 2008 5:36 am

You can't just "run" E85. You need a way to increase the fuel flow, since E85 requires roughly 30% more fuel then pump gas does.

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Re: (WDRacing)

Postby drape123 » Fri May 09, 2008 8:22 am

Wow i didnt know this thread was so active i'll check more often but let me try to answer some of the questions here

LEMHEAD16 --- exactly what WDRacing said, it releases less HC and burns cooler than gas so it does not release as much NOX
CrazyInteg wrote:drape123 I want to know your opinion. E85 is about $1 cheaper per gallon than premium here and we have about 5 stations in my city that sell it at a wide variety of prices.

So in your opinion can I buy 33% larger injectors (555 -> 740), adjust the FPR to get the proper AFR and call it a day? Would I want to advance my timing a degree or two? I know that it's not ideal for daily driving, but I would just be running rich which isn't horrible.

Specs : fully built SR, upgraded turbo, Enthalpy tune, Tomei FPR, Walboro 255 pump
Correct if you have a tune set for 550's you can run 740s and your car should run OK.. or what i tell a lot of 240 owners just throw some 370cc injectors in there.. that will run great and will actually lean you out a little bit on the stock computer which is GOOD for power since E85 has a higher octane.

one thing you might notice on a stock ecu though is cold starts suck... the car will misfire until it gets warm.. that is because you really need to advance the timing 7 degrees on the Cold start map because again it burns cooler and has a higher octane

If you'd like me to send you a retune for your enthalpy ecu for e85 lmk.. i can also tune it for SARD 850cc injectors which are the biggest sidefeeds available and cheaper than deatschwerks (and sard are brand new)
WDRacing wrote:You can't just "run" E85. You need a way to increase the fuel flow, since E85 requires roughly 30% more fuel then pump gas does.
True, you can either turn the fuel pressure up or get larger injectors.. for a NA car looking for a few extra HP you can drop in 370cc injectors and advance the timing 5 degrees and call it a day.. other than that you need a retune.

hope this helps outJason

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Re: (WDRacing)

Postby jsherm007 » Wed May 21, 2008 4:33 am

WDRacing wrote:You can't just "run" E85. You need a way to increase the fuel flow, since E85 requires roughly 30% more fuel then pump gas does.
In a 2006 Accord I did run E85 with no problems, no alterations, exept the check engine light kept tripping due to the O2 sensor. But aside from that the car started, ran just fine for the couple months I did it until E85 and regular gas got too close in price to justify the use of E85.

I never researched it, but how much can the stock injectors increase flow on their own?

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Re: (jsherm007)

Postby eazye2000 » Wed May 21, 2008 5:12 am

Wow, I just caught up on everything in here. It's been a while. And it's nice to see that Jason is in on this too!

I'm looking at going with some E85. I'd like to get some new chips from you Jay. Then swap for when I feel froggy.

I also need to install the 3076r. Probably this weekend.

Werd 'em up

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Re: (eazye2000)

Postby CrazyInteg » Wed May 28, 2008 9:59 am

Hmmmm the $600 check from the government is coming soon, and 740cc injectors cost about $580.

I think I smell some popcorn

EDIT: $475 shipped from EAT. Badass!
Modified by CrazyInteg at 2:00 PM 5/30/2008

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Re: (CrazyInteg)

Postby CrazyInteg » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:24 am

Taking the car in on Friday for the conversion. All I'm doing is swapping injectors to 740's (from 555's) and adding drape's reprogrammed chip. Will do a before and after dyno. I'm hoping for a 30whp gain, but I'll be happy with 20whp.

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Re: (CrazyInteg)

Postby WDRacing » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:10 am

With the added boost you can run you should see more like 50 or 60 depending on the boost increase and timing ramp.

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Re: (WDRacing)

Postby CrazyInteg » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:17 am

WDRacing wrote:With the added boost you can run you should see more like 50 or 60 depending on the boost increase and timing ramp.
Well I want to keep everything the same to get a fair dyno comparison. I'll keep you guys posted. I have a BUSY weekend coming up, but I'll try to get my dyno graphs scanned/uploaded before next Monday.

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Re: (CrazyInteg)

Postby nelson8708 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:08 pm

Well the civic did not turn out like i wanted it to. The guy who tuned it messed something up or maybe when he was tuning it, some static electricty hit the ecu. After it was tuned it would run on e85 but, would randomly cut off while driving. I pulled the chip kit out and now the car runs fine. I am looking into putting e85 in the 240 though. Since i am the one tuning it i think i will have better luck. My only question is do i need to get a aftermarket FPR? Also, do you think i would be ok with 460cc injectors and low boost?....I would still be on a stock mafs so you know the power wouldnt be more than 220.

The close e85 station prices suck (3.60) but, if i make a 15-20min drive i can get it for 2.76 ......

EDIT:

The only mod i plan to do other than the injectors and tune would be to replace all the fuel line with new. Does e85 have any adverse affects on wideband o2 sensors...like a shorter life span?

Also, how much timing should i add in the cruising loads? I dont have a knock sensor so i was thinking 3 degress would be good and for under boost i would just leave the stock timing (only 6-8psi).

Opinions welcome......jason and WD

Modified by nelson8708 at 11:06 PM 7/9/2008
Modified by nelson8708 at 6:19 PM 7/10/2008

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Re: (CrazyInteg)

Postby WDRacing » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:45 am

CrazyInteg wrote:Well I want to keep everything the same to get a fair dyno comparison. I'll keep you guys posted. I have a BUSY weekend coming up, but I'll try to get my dyno graphs scanned/uploaded before next Monday.
Um, running higher octane fuel has NO added benefits unless you increase boost or timing. Especially since you're going to be burning more fuel then compared to pump since the soich of E85 is about 30% richer.

WD

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Re: (WDRacing)

Postby S13FX » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:43 am

Let me add this, at 8 psi on stock timing with E85 you will easily see at least 40tq extra to the wheels.

My friend and me went as far as going to 14psi on stock timing with e85, and had no detonation at all.

My guess would be anywhere after 14psi thats also depending which turbo you use.

We are using a Precision GT32. We haven't gone over 14psi on stock timing he has been driving like this for a couple months now. But I think that up to 14psi on that turbo stock timing is fine, and see very nice gains.

After that you might need to monitor timing closely and start pulling but I'm sure it wouldn't have to be much.

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Re: (S13FX)

Postby drape123 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:54 am

S13FX wrote:Let me add this, at 8 psi on stock timing with E85 you will easily see at least 40tq extra to the wheels.

My friend and me went as far as going to 14psi on stock timing with e85, and had no detonation at all.

My guess would be anywhere after 14psi thats also depending which turbo you use.

We are using a Precision GT32. We haven't gone over 14psi on stock timing he has been driving like this for a couple months now. But I think that up to 14psi on that turbo stock timing is fine, and see very nice gains.

After that you might need to monitor timing closely and start pulling but I'm sure it wouldn't have to be much.
yeah E85 is miracle fuel. im running 16 degrees total timing up top at 30+ psi no detonation on a gt35

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Re: (WDRacing)

Postby CrazyInteg » Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:34 am

WDRacing wrote:Um, running higher octane fuel has NO added benefits unless you increase boost or timing. Especially since you're going to be burning more fuel then compared to pump since the soich of E85 is about 30% richer.WD
I don't know why this was directed at me.

Well anyways, you know how it goes. Dyno owner is out of town and so we rescheduled for next Friday.

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Re: (CrazyInteg)

Postby nelson8708 » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:41 pm

I dont know if any of you watch mad money on the today show but, i caught a little bit of it this evening and the guy was a moron when he came to a question about e85. He said it takes 30% of the corn crop to produce enough e85 to cancel out 3% of the gas we use. I guess he doesnt know that most e85 now it produced from switch blade grass and paper based waste products. On top of that i think he was being paid by some of the gas companies for some of the other things he said. He said to ease the pain of paying for gas would be to buy shares of gas companies and use the dividends to ease the pain. He does have a point, but the dividends would be so small unless you purchased a crap load of shares. He even said that we should be paying around 6$ a gallon instead of 4.00-4.50$ a gallon. It seemed that since he was talking trash about e85 and said to invest in gas companies that he might have been paid to help give the gas companies a good name.

"If i see him i want to kick him square in the nuts!" (cartman voice)

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Re: (nelson8708)

Postby drape123 » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:56 am

sup guys i just wanted to put some videos of my car friday night at the drag strip

these runs were around 30psi on e85 which is netting me over 550whp i am sure. this equal length manifold blows my jgs one out of the water. boost was so much smoother...

anyhow i almost died a few times cause at this track they only spray traction compound at the launch pad needless to say half way down the track i got sideways once

anyhow heres the vids, enjoy! (some of them are dark the first few seconds that is because they dont allow cameras in car so we had to hide them)

500 whp chevy truck with nitrous

http://www.youtube.com/v/efjHwcCeIhk

mujstang gt with boltons i bogged out of the hole big time but caught up

http://www.youtube.com/v/nZwoqGN-y_c

70's transam sounded mean but slowwwwwwwwwhttp://www.youtube.com/v/S9lc6j7rVvk

golf gti w/400whp

http://www.youtube.com/v/QG6JA4QMcts
Modified by drape123 at 9:16 AM 7/20/2008

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Re: (drape123)

Postby nelson8708 » Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:50 pm

I hate to bump this but, i am debating on whether i should get 850cc injectors or 1000cc injectors for running e85. The only reason i would get the 850cc injectors over the 1000cc is because i am worried about drivability and whether or not i will be able to control them. I will be using a rom tune and resistors.

How much power can you make 850cc injectors on e85? If i can make 400whp with out maxing the 850's then that is what i am going to get. As long as i am good to about 15psi is all i am looking for.

Also how much timing should i pull for 12psi on e85. I was thinking .5 degrees after 7psi so about 2.5degrees off of the stock timing. The ka24e has low comp. (8.6) anyways, so i was hoping that would be safe. I am not looking for big power, just safe power.

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Re: (nelson8708)

Postby GTR PrYdE » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:47 pm

i'd say e85 would hit under 400, but on only 15psi? you could run boost like c16.

also- I believe e85 likes either alot of timing or alot of boost.

from what ive read on other forums, 850s would probably max around 360-380whp.

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Re: (GTR PrYdE)

Postby nelson8708 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:48 am

so your saying that i would max out 850cc injectors before i hit 400hp? Its not so much what psi i am running but, what kind of hp i can make with 850cc injectors. I just doubt i would run more than 15psi on a stock motor. If i get hooked on boost and throw my rods and pistons in i want to be able to hit 400hp with out having to get another set of injectors agian. As long as this motor lasts a little while i will probably build one with internals. If it blows up before i have some fun with it i will be looking at getting a bike and letting the fourty go.

Do you think i would have trouble controlling them with resistors?

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Re: (nelson8708)

Postby WDRacing » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:38 am

Just watch the AFR's. Once you reach 100 DC (duty cycle) you'll see the afr's lean out. You just need to reduce the boost a couple psi below that. So you're not running at 100 DC all the time, or atleast when WOT.

Just think of 850's as 420's, whatever boost you can run with a 420 is about what you'll get with a 850.

As far as timing goes, ramp up the off boost timing and retard it a touch on boost. But only retard it on boost if you've increased the base timing for better driveability off boost. Make sense?

Alcohol burns cold, it likes timing and boost...alot.

WD

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Re: (WDRacing)

Postby nelson8708 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:19 pm

I havent bought the injectors yet. I am just trying to figure out whether to get 850 or 1000cc. I get what you mean on timing with bumping the low load cruising portion of the map. I am just worried that with out a good EMS or a injector driver i wont be able to control 1000cc injectors very well at idle and cruising. I think i am going to go with the 850cc injectors. I really dont want to get over 90% duty cycle but, i think the 850cc injectors suit me well for now. I think that is the max a walbro and stock fuel lines can push anyways.

Can a walbro push 1000cc injectors or is it maxed before that.

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Re: (nelson8708)

Postby GTR PrYdE » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:16 pm

nelson8708 wrote:I havent bought the injectors yet. I am just trying to figure out whether to get 850 or 1000cc. I get what you mean on timing with bumping the low load cruising portion of the map. I am just worried that with out a good EMS or a injector driver i wont be able to control 1000cc injectors very well at idle and cruising. I think i am going to go with the 850cc injectors. I really dont want to get over 90% duty cycle but, i think the 850cc injectors suit me well for now. I think that is the max a walbro and stock fuel lines can push anyways.

Can a walbro push 1000cc injectors or is it maxed before that.
To correct WD- 850cc's with E85 are like 590cc's on gasoline.

A single walbro 255 has been maxxed out around 500whp on E85, so for goals around 400 it'll be perfectly fine.

Unless you know someone who can tune 1000's really good, don't mess with them... go with something you know can be tuned. I believe Enthalpy states he can comfortably tune up to 900cc's on the KA/SR's.

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Re: (GTR PrYdE)

Postby nelson8708 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:50 am

looks like i will be going with the 1000cc injectors. E85 takes 15-20% more fuel at idle so it would be like i am tuning for smaller injectors on gas. After hearing back from some people who are running 850cc on gas i think 1000cc on e85 will be fine. Its probably close to border line but, if **** hits the fan i can always sell them and get smaller or get a injector driver from FJO.


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