Dynoed again, still not happy!

[daniel240]

well i finally took it to the dyno again today to tune my car after installing a safcII. You may remember a few months ago i dynoed my car with just a hacked mafs setup and only made about 180hp and 200ft/lbs of torque, but the a/fs were very rich. so this time we started tuning and leaned it out quit a bit. but i was still pretty disapointed in the low hp numbers. my best run was 215hp and 245ft/lbs. i didnt have that chart. the one below is 212hp and 238ft/lbs. im happy with the torque, i just wish i could pull 20-30 more hp out of it. btw i was running 8psi and my setup is: T3/T4 50trim .63a/r and 370cc injectors and hacked mafs. using msd btm retarding timing about .5deg/psi. but it does feel a lot faster now after i tuned it.

[klattr1]

was your power still rising or was it at its peak where u stopped the run?

[daniel240]

it looked to me like it was at its peak, i let off of at about 6k.

[NateDogg]

Using an S-AFC will not get you ideal numbers. By reducing the fuel with S-AFC, you are also changing the timing (values in MAF map). So I bet if you pull out the boost retard you will get more power.

[UltraRed2$0sx]

Are you still running with the EGR line plugged into the manifold??If you blocked it off, as i have, the ECU is most likely running on a retarded MAP. Thats means that with the BTM you are retarding in top of what the ecu is already retarding. This happend to me. My ECU is running 16deg BTDC at WOT, this is not including any retardation at the distributor or BTM.Is your timing at 20deg BTDC on the crank pulley?I know that in my case i was retarding too much and the car had no power above 4k RPMs. I suggest you look at your timing and make sure its set right and adjust from there.

PauLBTW for 8psi 212rwhp is not bad, but its not great. Some people tend to make more others even more.

[daniel240]

yes i do have the egr tube that went to the manifold plugged. ive never heard that it would cause it to run any differently. i have never messed with my timing, i just installed the btm and adjusted it to retard .5deg/psi. i did mess with it on the dyno and advanced it a bit and i got almost 10hp more by just barely turning the knob. ive just always heard that you want to retard about .5deg/psi. im afraid to go any lower than that. so are you using anything to retard your timing?

[Structure240sx]

yes this is the same with me. and i sorta confirmed it on ultra's car.

my stock ecu is runnign about 17-18degrees total timing at wot. the only reason i can come up with this is that when the egr is blocked off is that the ecu switches to a safe map. this was mentioned in a different post. after reading that post it clicked in my head that it must be the egr. so you effective may be running 12 degrees total timing which would kill your power

[virus77]

You know, that might be a good reason why my car was acting funny after i put my injectors in. I took my boost up to 11 and retarded timing a few more degrees on the emanage to be safe, but the car was falling on its face running worse then at 8 psi. Today i bumped the timing a few degrees and shes running pretty strong.

On another note, isnt upgrading injectors with an afc/emanage supposed to bump ignition timing. With this in mind ive been retarding timing a little extra always, but from what it seems like I could still be loosing power because my EGR is plugged as well so maybe my timing is retarded to begin with. I really need to get something to check my timing at wot.

Hey structure are you just tuning down your 480's with an AFC and not retarding timing whatsover, stock KA ecu.

[daniel240]

so could i just start advancing my timing with the btm a little at a time as long as i dont hear any detonation? or is the ecu already retarding enough timing that i wouldnt even need the btm at 8psi?

[Structure240sx]

you shouldnt need the btm at all. the only way to confirm this though is to use a monitoring device such as the mdm techtom, nissan CONSULT, apexi mulitchecker

[virus77]

Hey structure are you just tuning down your 480's with an AFC and not retarding timing whatsover, stock KA ecu with the EGR blocked. Just making sure.

[skatanic28]

so if you put a resistor in place of the egr sensor do you think the ecu would still be pulling timing from that safe map? i may even end up just keeping the egr, if this is really an issue. guess i need some dyno time to check out total timing at WOT.

[UltraRed2$0sx]

I really think the only safe way to make sure enough timming is been retarded is checking the ECU reading. Once one knows how much timming the ECU is pulling it would be easier to adjust from there.Similar setups work very different on every car and wouldn't be really safe to speculate and take others results for granted.

PauL

[virus77]

Someone sell me their techtom, I need one bad

[Red-KAT]

I bet timing is my issue as well... I needa fork out the cash for one of those things...

I'm retarding 7deg at above 3k rpm and 6psi +... so is 13btc to much taken off for about 10-12psi?

[WDRacing]

With good fuel you really shouldn't need to retard your timing at only 8 psi. If you want to be safe for a dyno run, use some race gas. But I'm pretty sure Dan you can simply stop the BTM retard and you'll gain some power. At which point I would even advance the base by 1-2 degree's. I have a MSD Knock Meter I use, I recommend everyone should use that or a datalogger like techtom.

I'm glad we found the safe mode with the EGR disconnected. Now we need to install the resistor and see if timing goes back to stock. Why don't you hook us up Structure? I'll even pay for the resistor for who ever wires one in and does a writeup on it.

[virus77]

but if the EGR removal (which lots of people do) sets us at 17 total timing it would be nice thing for the kat guys, thats a nice total timing number to be at especially with the wild advance we are really supposed to have due to injector correction. It would be nice if we could get a few kats with blocked egr to test their total timing with either techtoms, or r-vit, or whatever. Maybe we should buy one and ship it around to everyone, or structure should mail me his and ill leave him a $400 deposit untill i return it to him with paypal.

[skatanic28]

this would definately be helpful to know. over at FA a few ka-t's were running as much as 28 degrees total timing. i was under the impression that i would be doing about the same with stock ignition and 370s, so i picked up a btm to stop that. are there any downsides to keeping the egr besides the pain in the *** of hooking it up?

[UltraRed2$0sx]

Blocked EGR or not. There is no need for a BTM for anything under 9psi. All the retardation could be done at the distributor.But if you are really crazy about trying to get the most out of your car, i guess itll be nice to have. Retarding at the distributor for 9psi at .5/psi = 4.5deg, which makes you run 15.5Deg BTDC all the time. This may hurt your spool a bit. The more you advance timming you spool up quicker, i think. Anyone please correct me if im wrong.

PauL

[skatanic28]

yep that sounds about right. i didnt want to suffer with the 5 degrees of retard when not boosting though, so i just went for the btm. it should help low-end and streetability with stock timing off-boost.

[daniel240]

Ok heres what im thinking i should do. i will just check what my timing is at now with a timing light, and if it is retarded like everyone says it should be, then i will advance it back to 20btdc. then i will still use the btm, that way it will help me spool up faster. will this work?

[daniel240]

i tried checking my timing tonight and it was really hard to read it. i dont know if this is because i have an asp pulley. it was hard to get a perpendicular view of the marker and the marks on the pulley, from what i saw, it looked like it was between 17 and 20btdc. i was also having trouble getting the idle to stay at 700rpm. it was close though. im just afraid to advance it until i can get a more accurate reading. i turned the knob on my btm almost to 0 today and it seemed to run fine. i might ask the nissan mechanic at work tomorrow if he can hook it up to something to get a better timing reading.

[Structure240sx]

ill leave him a $400 deposit untill i return it to him with paypal.

if it was mine i would. i basically did the same thing. the techtom is ryans (klattr1). i gave him a deposit and he let me borrow it. its going back to him next week. i bought an apexi multichecker. jsut need to figure out the wiring.

hey WD if you tell me how to wire in the resistor ill do it.

daneil- you're not quite grasping the timing issue. whne we talk about having 17 degrees TOTAL timing. this mean when we are at WOT boosting. only way to check that with a timing light is on a dyno while somone is boost the car at wot. or to have a monitoring device. with the car idling and tps unplugged, you are checking the base timing.

base timing for kade - 20 degrees at 700rpms with tps unpluggedtotal timing for kade - 28 degrees at wot under highest load

so if someone retards their base timing with the distributor 4 degrees. this would give them:

base timing of 16 degreestotal timing at wot of 24 degrees

with something like the btm or other tuning device the base timing would remain the same but total timing would get retarded.

[skatanic28]

where did you get the multi-checker from? and how much do they usually go for? i suck at google tonite and cant really find much.

heres a decent writeup for it thoughhttp://www.240sx.org/faq/articles/apex.htm

quick question, does anyone know how much the timing is advanced with 370s and airflow correction? just a degree or two i would imagine. thanks

[Structure240sx]

just a thought for anyone using a btm or maybe an emanage

if you have the timing set to .75 degrees of retard per psi and the car falls on its face then you are in the safe map that we have been talking about.

even try it at 1 degree of retard per psi to play it safe. the car still shouldnt fall on its face even then. believe you will know whne it falls

[daniel240]

ok help me understand this, the stock ka's base timing is 20deg. and totoal timing is 28deg.but when the egr is plugged it goes into a safe map and retards the total timing to around 17deg. but the base timing stays the same at 20deg.? is this correct?

[C-Kwik]

Are you sure about this safe mode thing guys? I ran my KA-T over two years with the EGR blocked and it never ran any kind of safe mode. And if it did, you'ld get a MIL light. I did actually trip the EGR light on mine when I was running a FMU, but there was no performance difference when it was reset so that the light was off or if the MIL was on. There is no reason for the ECU to run in a safe mode for an EGR failure. When I got my E-Manage, the MIL stopped turning up, but performance didn't change either way.

I would look elsewhere for a solution. I'd make sure you have no leaks. I was battling some problems with recurring leaks myself before I got rid of the 240. For some reason something would leak just before I dyno'd. The first time was an intake boost leak. The second time the wastegate gasket blew out. I also found a bad turbo bearing to be a culprit of poor spool and power as well.

[Redline240]

Ok i get the timing thing but most of this thread would make a lot more sence if i knew what the hell a EGR was!!! Ok take a min to laugh and then explain it...where is it, what is it, what does it do, why don't we need it, is it on both S13/S14, and how do i yank it out?

Redline

[Structure240sx]

c-kwik is very right, im just baseing my ideas off personal experince and the same thing with a friends car. unfortunately id ont have results for before and after removing the egr. i ASSUME its the egr becuase of a thread i read that stated the ecu will retard timing if the egr is not working properly

so i guess to everyone, TRY AT YOUR OWN RISK

have some king of timing monitoring device if you are going to try to use this method

redline- the egr tube/valve (exhuast gas recirculation) is located behind the motor. its a tube about .75" wide that screws into the exhuast manifold. the tube runs behind the motor to the intake manifold.

many people block it off for turbo apps. becuase you would have to weld a bung perfecty into the downpipe or manifold.

[NateDogg]

many people block it off for turbo apps. becuase you would have to weld a bung perfecty into the downpipe or manifold.

Or you could hack the egr tube off at the exhaust manifold, screw it into the perfectly welded bung on the new turbo manifold and then connect the egr tube sections with a piece of high temp hose and clamp it together.

Daniel, I think your engine is fine and if you take that timing out from the BTM you will be at the expected power levels.
Modified by NateDogg at 1:45 AM 11/20/2004