do you USE your clutch?

[[Zero-S]]

If you match revs, no damage will come to your transmission. If you're a little off (like I was sometimes) then you're in for a nice grind. Reccomendation: if your transmission is about to go anyways, practice it with that. Otherwise, stay away from it unless you can afford to rebuild/replace a transmission because you wanna learn a cool new trick.

[Japican]

Yea I didnt hear about this "clutchless" shiftin til i read it in that thread started a while ago, but its was fun for awhile wen i was tryin it out, but now im back to the clutch.

[WingsNThangs]

Why not use the clutch? Lazy? Show off? Messed up clutch?

I dont get it. Is there a disadvantage to using the clutch? Because there sure as hell exists a risk by not using it.

[el5y]

I've done it by accident before....nice grinding sound, freaked my girl out, especially since she was shifting for me....(I was being lazy and I was trying to teach her how to drive stick via proxy) but yeah, you gotta know the range where you can shift like that other wise gggggggggggggggggngngnfnnnrnrngnngnrnr..

Eric

[Demonic240]

I can see how you can not use the clutch to shift, I double clutch alot when down shifting, something I picked up for driving a big rig OTR. And for what crzycav86 about shifting between 3rd and 4th, what he means is, if you motice when your in 3rd gear and @ 2500 rpms, if you shift normally, your start rpm in 4th gear is 2000 rpms, this is your match rpm for 3rd-4th upshift.

[TurboKA37]

while we are on the subject of transmissions and possibly grinding gears i have grinded when putting the car into reverse a few times and it seems it only happens when im still moving forward and try to put it in reverse (with clutch pressed of coarse) but it doesnt grind when i bring the car to a complete or almost complete stop. anyone kno why?

[drifter_for_life06]

on a secon note from it being bad, my friend said his father can speed shift their 1991 Stanza perfectly fine every gear w/o the clutch. he drove the car so often he knew the perfect RPM to shift at, i dont know however if thats why the 2nd gear sychnro is messed up i dont know

[TurboKA37]

i just tried the clutchless shifting and it didnt seem like it did any harm. it was pretty smooth. but i do a lot of rev matching when using the clutch and i focus on the rpm difference in gears alot so it was pretty easy for me. if your not used to rev matching then i wouldnt suggest it

[Phax]

I take the car out of gear without the clutch all the time. Sometimes I'll blip the throttle, rev match it and toss it into the next gear. As C-Kwik said, I like going fast. It takes too much time to match the revs. Most of my shifts are between 4000-7000 RPMs anyway. There is a lot of load on the transmission at that point, so I use the clutch.

I first learned to shift without the clutch on a Miata. I pretty much thrashed the transmission in the process.

[crzycav86]

while we are on the subject of transmissions and possibly grinding gears i have grinded when putting the car into reverse a few times and it seems it only happens when im still moving forward and try to put it in reverse (with clutch pressed of coarse) but it doesnt grind when i bring the car to a complete or almost complete stop. anyone kno why?

This was also brought up in the other thread.

There's no syncro in reverse gear nor in first. If you want to shift into first gear with the car moving forward quickly, you'll have to double clutch. And depending on which way the car is moving when you're in reverse, you'll have to double clutch or rev match.

[Oatmealman]

I don't see why I always match revs and don't ever grind it. Oh well if it is bad I haven't had adverse side effects from it.

it's all in the speed and rpms of the car,my dad did in a semi all the time,it's fine,i don't have to worry i have an automatic transmission,go autp trannys,every one thinks there horrible but there not,i can spin the tires on three or two cylinders i love my auto transmission. use to be able to do on one in gravel but i can't now.

[whoflungpoo]

I've gotta do it pretty much everytime going into second gear with my damned dsm.... 2nd gear synchros are gone.

an easy way to tell the timing of when you can shift w/o a clutch, is to actually use the clutch and put pressure on the stick like it's you're going into gear... you'll still feel it feedback some, but when it the shifter just falls in, you know that's the rpm that it matches at. pretty soon after that you just get a feel for it.

trust me, it's only a backup for me... being a DSM owner (soon to be former owner) I truly appreciate how nice the KA trannies are.

[Touchdown038]

I truly appreciate how nice the KA trannies are.

Except for the fact that they die quickly.

[masticatingcow]

Do they die quickly? My KA transmission has 209000 miles on it and when I went out to try some clutchless shifting (about 3 hours ago) it worked fine without any grinding at all. But then again, I've spend hours and hours practicing matching revs and double clutching, so removing the pedal from the equation was pretty easy.

[TurboKA37]

touchdown, why do you say they die quickly?

[AceInhole]

skilled or not, shift without the clutch = wear the synchros faster. you can take my word for it or wait till your transmission seizes with a nice "pop".

[IvoryJ30t]

skilled or not, shift without the clutch = wear the synchros faster. you can take my word for it or wait till your transmission seizes with a nice "pop".

thats retarded.

when i used to drive trucks, i put 120k miles on a 2001 International 4700 w/ 466DT engine and 6+1 transmission.

that transmission HAD SYNCHROS, and i only used the clutch for standing starts. 120k miles, original clutch, original transmission.

the fact of the matter is that if you can do it properly, it causes no more wear than normal clutch shifting does. actually it causes less wear. your not using the clutch or pushing the pedal and the associated hydraulic system.

[trojanjg]

they put the clutch there for a reason so use it. And im sure it does cause trouble with the trany. my advice if you have a clluctch you should use it, they would put it there if you didnt need it.

[TurboKA37]

you need it to start in first gear

[C-Kwik]

skilled or not, shift without the clutch = wear the synchros faster. you can take my word for it or wait till your transmission seizes with a nice "pop".

Actually, A syncro could last longer with clutchless shifting. The point of a syncro is to match the speed of the dog gear to the actual gear before it is mated. I was starting to type a up a small explanation of how trannies work, but it started getting long. A quick search on howstuffworks.com and I found what I was looking for and this one has diagrams.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmiss ... ssion6.htm

In any case if you see how a transmission works, if you math the revs well and time the selection of the next gear well, then the syncros will not be forced to rub against the cone as much. But, if you are giving a slight tug on the shifter as you wait for the motor to wind down you will be putting a load on the syncro both prematurely, and potenitally with greater friction as a syncro was really only designed to adjust the speed of the gears based on the weight of the input gears alone. With the clutch engaged to the input shaft, the syncro will be at the mercy of the speed of the car and the speed of the motor if it's allowed to make contact with the cone prematurely.

So in short, it can b done with minimal perhaps less wear then shifting with a clutch, but it can also be done wrong and quickly wear the syncro.

[IvoryJ30t]

they put the clutch there for a reason so use it. And im sure it does cause trouble with the trany. my advice if you have a clluctch you should use it, they would put it there if you didnt need it.

CONGRADULATIONS!!

you win the "ignorant statement of the day" award!!!

i suggest you use the above link and learn how a transmission works.

[SeanDean]

I love all you guys who say things like "I am sure blah blah...." or "there sure seems blah blah...."

For those of you who are wondering what these bullsh!t speculationists mean, let me translate: "I don't know s***"

I like this one: "The clutch is there for a reason...yadda yadda"

Yea the reason is to transition the car from stationary to moving, and it also makes shifting easier when you have a syncromesh transmission. I don't know what you guys would have done before syncros. Ever hear of double clutching? Well even when you double clutch, you can grind gears because clutch in or not, revs MUST be matched, so in reality most people with non syncromesh trannies back in the day, just shifted clutchless with good rev-matching.

For you people saying that clutchless shifting is bad for the transmission and bad for syncros, you obviously have no idea how the tranmission functions in the first place. Proper clutchless shifting actually causes less wear on the syncros than regular shifting. Regular shifting forces the syncros to speed up or slow down the input shaft and clutch disc, whereas rev matched clutchless shifts (the only way to do it properly) match the revs of the engine, flywheel, clutch PP/disc, and input shaft (since they are never disconnected) to the speed of the layshaft for the next gear. That creates no wear on the syncros because they have to do NOTHING, and the gears just slide in.

Now if you are learning clutchless shifting with no understanding of how the transmission works and you cant adjust engine speed finely AND you put pressure into the gear you want to go into before the revs are matched, this WILL cause more wear but IS NOT proper technique.

A quick 2nd to 5th upshift with the clutch would cause a great deal of syncro wear, but without clutch and allowing engine speed to fall to the right rpm, then sliding it in; would cause practically no wear at all. Ultimately the clutch has NOTHING do to with syncro wear. Relative gear speed DOES.

And as for chipping gear teeth....... HAHAHAHAHA, clearly the people saying that don't know what the phrase 'constant mesh' means. In a modern transmission, all the gearsets are always meshed and the only thing you are sliding back and forth are the dog rings. That's what you hear grind, not gears, and dog rings are extremely tough so you would be hard pressed to damage them.

Educate yourselves before trying to comment as if you are some sort of authority.

Oh, and BTW, Nissans DO have syncros on first but they aren't the greatest. Only cars I know of to have syncros on reverse are BMW's but I'm sure some other cars with ZF and Getrag gearboxes have reverse syncros.

Cheers,-Sean

[SeanDean]

Damnit, I wrote that post at like 5am but I previewed it and then left for work never submitting it. Looks like a few of you guys already covered what i said...

-Sean

[SimpleEnigma]

There is a transmission that is specifically designed for clutchless shifting (but u can use the clutch if u want to). It is called a Constant-mesh transmission, and uses dogs and dog rings to match gear speeds instead of synchros (if u want more info...find the december 2003 issue of Turbo and High Tech Performance. Constant-mesh transmission is much stronger (and faster) and more durable than Synchro-mesh, since synchro-mesh is designed to be smoother. Anyway, clutchless shifting in a synchro'd transmission is a good way to tear it up, even if u match gear speeds, because the transmission was designed to be shifted with the use of the clutch. I do feel ya on the big trucks tho...Brand new clutch on '99 SVT Cobra is same way...like pushing against a brick wall.

[SeanDean]

DID YOU EVEN READ MY POST???

Quote »Anyway, clutchless shifting in a synchro'd transmission is a good way to tear it up, even if u match gear speeds, because the transmission was designed to be shifted with the use of the clutch.[/quote]

WRONG!!! Just wrong plain and simple. Who says it was designed to be shifted with a clutch ??? We're you there when every syncromesh transmission was designed??? They were designed to help people shift with more ease because they dont require double clutching and rev matching. Are you going to tell us that double clutching will hurt a syncromesh transmission too???

You people know nothing and come and try to preach your bullsh!t like it's the *****ing gospel.

Also I will have you know that while 'constant-mesh' may be some company's brand name for a product, the term constant mesh when refering to trannies just refers to the fact that the transmission ahs all gear sets constantly meshed with each other. Any modern transmission has this.

The transmission type you refer to is classified under the braod term of 'dog box' or 'crash box' and all of the ones I know are constant mesh designs.

-Sean

[NIGHTfall_240sx]

i didnt know my question was gunna lead up to this... heheh drama r00lZ!11!!111

[C-Kwik]

The transmission type you refer to is classified under the braod term of 'dog box' or 'crash box' and all of the ones I know are constant mesh designs.

-Sean

Just to tag on here, you can go to Quaife's site and they list what they refer to as a dog-engagement transmission or something like that. These do not have syncros. They can be shifted without a clutch, but require a very strong and swift movement of the shifter. The overall design is the same as any transmission without the syncros. The big difference here is that the dog gears fit much more loosely. This allows the gear speed and the input shaft speed to be different but still allows the dog gears to engage the gear. These transmissions are noisy, but very strong. Syncros take up room in the casing that can be otherwise used for larger, stronger gears. Or instead of larger gears, you can use a smaller transmission case. But these transmissions are not very practical for the street.

[SimpleEnigma]

C-Kwik finished up what i was trying to say...2 am (thougts not complete). Yes...all transmissions are "constant mesh" transmissions. Every gear is meshed with a matching gear on the layshaft. there is one main difference between a synchromesh transmission and the transmission i am talking about. the difference is the gear size and shape of the teeth. sychromesh transmissions have thinner gears (as a result of the synchros) and more angled teeth to allow for smoother quieter shifts. They are designed to be used in correlation with the clutch. Even if u match gear speed, it still exerts a lot of strain on the dog teeth and dog rings. the dog rings on a synchro transmission are smaller because it is not designed to be shifted without the use of the clutch. The "dog box" transmission is designed like the M22 "Rockcrusher" i have in a '68 Z28 Camaro. You can use the clutch with it, but it is not necessary if u give a quick decisive shift. the dogs on this transmission are larger and so are the dog teeth on the tranmission. Also, there is no angle to the gears and the gears themselves are much wider to compensate for the added strain of clutchless shifting. The downside to a dog box transmission is that they are loud (take the Rockcrusher for example) but they are nearly indestructible. they are built to be shifted clutchlessly, synchro'd trannys are not, end of story.

Also, no i was not around when the synchro transmission was invented, but i have dealt with trannys for 10 years. and...whoever said D-clutching was bad for a transmission? not i.

Addedly...using the clutch to shift does not tear up the synchros anymore than clutchless shifting does unless ur granny shifting >:P

[xxtrizz]

When I first got my car I decided to see what would happen if you held down the clutch and slipped the shifter into rear if it would do anything or if it would still coast forward man oh man was I infor a treat

NEVER DO THAT... all I heard was vrrrrrrrrrrrchink chink oh **** lol i just fell the gears rubbing together in my mission. Jesus that was horrible.

[IvoryJ30t]

thats because almost no transmissions have synchros on reverse gear. [had to say almost because there might be one that i have never heard of]

all forward gears are constantly engaged. the synchros match the speed of the mainshaft and countershaft so that the dog teeth can engage the dog ring on the gear without clashing.

when you misshift, the grinding sound you hear is the dog teeth and ring, not the gears. the gears are constantly in mesh.

the reason reverse gear doesnt use synchros is because it doesnt use thew same shifting method as the other gears. an idler gear is moved in and out of mesh with the main and counter shafts reverse gears. thats how the reverse gear moves the car in reverse. the idle gear causes the mainshaft and countershaft to turn in the same direction, reversing the transmissions output.

grinding reverse is the only time you grind "gears"

reverse whines due to the fact that reverse uses straight cut gears, not helical gears like the others.