Disco Potato vs 2871

[Ca_Silvia]

Well because FR Sport is back ordered to next century on the GT28R i was contmplating moving up to a higher end turbo. Ive had the opurtunity to drive a GT28R on a CA but not the other 2 options.

Anyone that has these turbos if you could chime in as to how much boost your running, when does boost kick in, dyno sheets would be awesome if you got them. Thanks boys

[The_Chosen_One]

I would go with the GT2871R. The GT28RS shouldn't even be considered anymore.

In terms of power output from less to most its GT28R, GT28RS (Disco Potato), GT2871R. The GT28RS only adds around 20-40bhp over the GT28R. The GT2871R adds around 100+bhp above what the GT28R can put out. The GT2871R costs around the same as the GT28RS thus why it shouldn't even be considered.

Also its best to have to have that extra horse power capability because you wont need to run as much boost and if you want more horse power just adding more fuel, a tune and raise up the psi would be better than buying a whole turbo all together.

So unless theirs a slick deal on a disco potato I wouldn't waste my time with it.

[dash]

there r threads, pages long on topic; 28 vs 2871 on ns.comMy comment... let the "fanboys" eat up all that garbage, while garret smiles all the way to the bank.

Don't buy into all that GT/bb = fast spool horse5h1t. ANY 28 will rip on a SR or CA. For a superb 300hp combo, there r faarrr too many proven CA18 recipees with dynos posted (nico and sxoc), to be askin this question imo.

Stick with the 'smaller' 28 if street fun/response is your priority. You can still crank up the boost when "set on kill". Quote »GT28RS shouldn't even be considered anymore[/quote] No? example; "cortina mkII" CA18 + 28RS 4dr street car, turning a heavy 9 inch ford rear end... still managed a smokin' 11.5sec ET. 2871 will lag and cost more. Peak hp not always better.

Machining stock housings for brand new plain ol journal bearing T28 CHRAs, has been successfully done for ages. FP "Big28" for example. Another has been offered, dyno'd and detailed on this CA section in an old post - reasonable price, fast CA.

2871 ? Looks like major turd polishing to me. Why else would it be offered in soooo many flavours ? ...and why bolt it to a stock manifold that starts to stangle at early 300s. T3/T4 will kick its arse at a fraction of the price.Don't believe the hype

[The_Chosen_One]

To make such an idiotic comment as GT/BB turbos are horses***.

Im not gonna even waste my time and rip apart your post dash, but you're wrong.

[Ca_Silvia]

Ive seen lots of comparisons on SR motors for potato vs 2871 but understandably none with the CA. The car is mainly for drifting, low production of torque to be be the highest priority. On the SR ive seen the 2871 beat out the potato on torque production down low, so that leaves alot to be said about the CA relativly speaking.

Keep in ming the 2871 is more money than the potato.

[The_Chosen_One]

The 2871 is only $46 more than the potato at Cheapturbo.com

A Ball Bearing turbo is gonna be more beneficial in drifting because of the ramp up rate of BB turbos. I have used both a GT28R and GTi-R T28 very similar turbos except the GTi-R is journal bearing. Although the GTi-R did offer that hard hit but the GT28R was definitely a nicer turbo.

I would recommend the GT28R for drifting, you hit full boost ridiculously fast with them especially on the OEM manifold. Also because its the cheapest and if you dont want a lot of horse power.

[dash]

Quote »To make such an idiotic comment as GT/BB turbos are horses***.Im not gonna even waste my time and rip apart your post dash, but you're wrong.[/quote] or... is it that some idiot needs to learn how to read. Check the statment againThen ask yourself why there r TONS of "28xx vs mitsu" feedback threads/pagesOh yeah, that's right(snap)... because "GT/bb = fast spool". Go ahead & rip 'fanboy'!

Dr. Drift has tuned/posted feedback on numerous CA18 combos for various uses. Have you ? Go do your homework

Ca_SilviaI don't drift, but many who do, have posted detailed CA18 setups, with feedback and dynos... which is why I suggested u hit 'em up. I can't think of a better source

[Ca_Silvia]

Dash thanks for the heads up after reveiwing a few threads on NS.com its pretty clear that the 2871 is just to much turbo for my needs. For maximizing as much low end as possible the disco is the best option above the GT28R.

Thanks for everything guys

[The_Chosen_One]

or... is it that some idiot needs to learn how to read. Check the statment againThen ask yourself why there r TONS of "28xx vs mitsu" feedback threads/pagesOh yeah, that's right(snap)... because "GT/bb = fast spool". Go ahead & rip 'fanboy'!

Dr. Drift has tuned/posted feedback on numerous CA18 combos for various uses. Have you ? Go do your homework

Ca_SilviaI don't drift, but many who do, have posted detailed CA18 setups, with feedback and dynos... which is why I suggested u hit 'em up. I can't think of a better source

I'm not even gonna bother.

[sjbsuperman1425]

dash, i think you are getting a little to worked up. i've searched and read on ball bearing vs journal, and the average difference in spool time between the two is about 15% faster on BB's from what i've read.my stock turbo and equal length mani. setup doesn't spool fully until almost 4k anway, and when drifting, you are not really in the low rpm's..

[Buddyworm]

At what point did this become a discussion on journal bearing vs. ball bearing cartridges? Yes, it does bear some consideration when selecting a turbo but let's not miss the point here. It's not so much the speed (journal bearings reach the same speed as a BB only about .4s slower) but the way they spool up. Ball bearings tend to wind up more gradually whereas journal bearings are more on/off or tend to "hit" once they're wound up all the way,

Anyway, CA_Silvia, my advice is go with the 2871. Sure it's more turbo than you technically need but consider the benefits of a compressor that's slightly too big for your needs. Yes, I agree, the disco potato is epicly well-suited for the CA but also consider advantages you can reap from lowering the thermal stress on the engine.

This is something the Japanese clued into a long time ago and it's why you see so many SR20's with TD06-20G's in JDM Option videos. Those engines aren't built to the nuts and pushing insane numbers, they're just running conservative boost because you can flow the same CFM at less boost with a larger turbo as you can with a smaller turbo at higher boost. This isn't the only part of the story as compressor efficiency directly affects charge density but consider this: at redline running 16psi (as a random benchmark) a CA is running the 2871r compressor at pretty damn near it's maximum efficiency and, in fact, the same thing can be said about the 28RS. However, the 2871r compressor wheel is bigger, it can "gulp" in more air at once and has to compress it less. Compressing air increases its temperature which means your intercooler has to work harder, your rad has to work harder, you may have to run more fuel for extra charge cooling and you can't run as much timing because of the increased propensity for detonation that goes along with higher charge air temperatures.

SR20 guys swear by 2871r's and .2L ain't that big of a difference. Especially if you've sized your exhaust side properly. And not only that, the 2871r gives you waaaaaay more room to grow in the future. You won't have to change your turbo until you decide to build up your bottom end and even then you probably won't need to upgrade the snail.

Modified by Buddyworm at 1:14 PM 6/1/2009
Modified by Buddyworm at 1:15 PM 6/1/2009

[The_Chosen_One]

At what point did this become a discussion on journal bearing vs. ball bearing cartridges? Yes, it does bear some consideration when selecting a turbo but let's not miss the point here.

It became it when Dash said GT/BB is fanboy spool faster horses***.

The problem with using dynos as a comparison is that when it comes to motors a lot of things can change the outcome. Temperature outside, condition of the motor etc etc can yield huge hp differences.

I've seen lots of CA dyno sheets with people using similar setups and yielding upwards of 20hp difference. I've seen a CA18 on a GT28R hit 289whp at 18psi and another at same 18psi do 270whp.

You want not biased proof here are the maps for each turbo.

BTW the GT28R is actually classified as a T25 by Garrett and its real name is GT2560R. Flows 31 lb/min





GT28RS part of the GT28 family. Real name is GT2860RS. Flows 35 lb/min.





GT2871R comes in so many varieties so I'm gonna just link each one instead of posting up all the maps for each variation.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...5.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...1.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...4.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...2.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...2.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...0.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...3.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...1.htm

[Ca_Silvia]

Buddyworm, I see what you mean but ive left out a bit of info for you all. I have a set of 256HKS cams sitting on my shelf. Once i get my turbo options figured out those are next on the list of installs.

So while your argument for the 2871 is logical i don't want to sacrifice more bottom end by choosing the 2871 and then compounding that same effect by throwing cams in the mix as well.

I haven't made up my mind yet let keep this coming. For the record im only really looking at the 2871 w/.64 housing and the Disco Potato .64

[Buddyworm]

I still say go with the 2871r. The cams are kind of a do or die thing, I've got the same ones and they definitely shift the powerband up in the rev range. I've got a turbo, TD05-14b with the 6cm^2 turbine housing so it spools hella quick and let me tell you, this turbo is not big (this thing actually flows similar numbers to the GT28rs and yes, I wish I'd gone bigger. Not that this turbo sucks or anything though). I've got boost whenever I want it but with the cams this engine does nothing below about 3750rpm anyway. After that it really likes to go, however.

I say embrace the peaky character of a mildly cammed CA and go with the bigger turbo. This engine will give it all it's got if you let it breathe up top. You know how the CA likes to run out of huff for the last 1000rpm before redline? Kiss that goodbye. The HKS bumpsticks keep the party going from 4000rpm all the way to 7500 and I can tell midrange to top end will be a helluva ride with a bigger turbo. The .64 A/R turbines from the RS and the 71r flow pretty much the same rates but the bigger compresor on the 71r is really gonna make the motor inhale.

[sjbsuperman1425]

alot of good info in this thread, its helping me alot.

Ca_Silvia, i can understand the concern for low end power. But if the cams are going to take the bottom end away anyway, you mind as well utilize the power that is going to be given to you up top.

[dash]

opening post gave the impression that FRsport OR a gtbb turbo was a prerequisite to an excellent performing CA18. Neither is, and won't even make the slightest difference. Exercise your optionsBest thing you can do for ANY combination, is match the turbo to your needs.

Take for instance, my favourite fast full street 1.8s; coincidence ?Quickest CA18 here for years (11.1sec) ran what ? T3/T4 @16-17psiquickest toyota 1.8L, fwd (10.8s), what turbo ? T3/T4miata, 11.1s @ only 380whp, now 576hp, with a whopping 505 ft-lbs on pump gas. T3/T4 50trim *which replaced a GT30*. Imagine that!!

Not that I dislike GT bb turbos, its just the hype surrounding these overrated overpriced snails that do nothing above & beyond.... same ol 5h1t, more money.Perfect example was the potatoe, unloading @ $1100 a pop back then... getting its arse waxed by a evo III 16g @ $500 brand new, wastegate actuator included.Wow.... isn't this marvelous new technology grand ? Sheep food.

2871... u r right back on the same treadwheel. Should I get the 48, 52 or 56 trim ?Then what hotside/housing a/r ? Should I go internal or external wastegate ? Get a T3 version.... with a manifold now or.... It never ends. Same ol' s***

There is nothing we can do with a CA18 that hasn't been, several times over.Which is why I'd say, stick to the tried & proven

[Cams]

Just like Zach said, great info all over the place. I would imagine ppl keep looking into GT28xx due to ease of bolt on application, but I'd say the price is aimed to the lucrative SR20 market, endorsed by the "Fast Spool" flag.

dash post got me looking into those T3 thingies and I found a couple that have T25 style turbine housing (again looking into ease of application), just like this one:

http://www.atpturbo.com/Mercha...O-048"Garrett T3/60-1 with Stage III turbine wheel and 60-1 compressor wheelCode: GRT-TBO-048Turbin_AR: 72_only_on_special_T25_EWG_44

Turbo, Journal Bearing Garrett T3/60-1compressor (T04S housing) with 4" inlet and 2.5" outlet. StageIII Turbine wheel with T31 4 bolt exhaust housing. Oil Cooled Only - NOT Watercooled. Uses T3/4 oil feed flange and drain flange. Great 550 HP Turbo. Available A/R, .48, .63, .82 "

Would the snail be too big to be bottom mounted on std manifold? At $750 + External WG it looks like winner.

[sjbsuperman1425]

yup, completely threw me off using my name lol but yes, i personally like the 2871r because it provides good power, is proven, and is easily bottom mounted. im not looking for anything fancy and dont want to have alot of "custom" work under the hood with manifolds and this and that. simple and stupid is good for me.

which ever turbo is chosen, im sure you wont regret it.

[bentvalves]

dash has good things to say in this thread, listen closely folks.

overpriced, polished turds - hence them coming in SO many different varieties and flavors.

owners of GT series turbos, dont take it the wrong way....I have a 2871 under my hood with the 3" inlet, 53mm inducer, 64 hotside and a 5 bolt rear.....looking around Im seeing better results from less expensive, journal bearing turbos these days however.

[Buddyworm]

Now that I find surprising ks13. Not calling bulls*** or anything, I'm a TD05/6 fanboy so I'm well aware of the awesomeness that comes from journal bearing turbos. I'm just surprised because you would think that the impeller design would have improved over time and deliver better results.

As to finely polished turds however, I don't buy it. Simply because all the variations aren't there for marketing purposes, all those changes and options relate very intimately with the way the turbo will perform on which engine. The variations of Garrett's own T3 framed journal bearing turbos are endless and nobody would try and pretend those are just contrived differences...

I do think too many people wax it to ballbearing cartridges though. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ftw!

[dash]

Quote »As to finely polished turds however, I don't buy it. Simply because all the variations aren't there for marketing purposes, all those changes and options relate very intimately with the way the turbo will perform on which engine.[/quote] a, say 350hp turbo doesn't need anywhere near that amount of renditions. Finely matched? Fail again, even amidst the GT2xxx cloud of confusion, there's NO magic.Can't just say "get a 2871". Wanna do the honours... spec the exact one then ?

Quote »variations of Garrett's own T3 framed journal bearing turbos are endless and nobody would try and pretend those are just contrived differences... [/quote] Totally different scenario. What is there to pretend ? It is what it is. Most wheels crossover from other applications (yep, even old truck & tractor components yeild excellent results in a performance car environment). The popular stage2 & 3 turbine wheels were turbonetics item, not garret iirc. Anyhow, no different than how the mitsu camp derive their "hybrids".Again, look what folks are doing with "throw-away" Holsets.

Majority of T3/T4s are simply upgrades performed on stock cores. Seen TONS of happy campers with clipped std turbine wheels mated to bigger compressor wheels in stock housings (machined). You hear the debates about ruining turbine efficiency and all that other crap (from vendors, surprised?).... but... put it up against your best matched, comparable sized gt bb wonder, and see what happens.

sxoc has a contigent of T3 advocates, who prefer their "cossie" units over any previous T28. Same way a junkyard T3 from a u.s. ford 2.3 would make a nice 'entry level' turbo for a CA18 - 60trim comp, 0.48 a/r hotside. Most of them "adapted" to their stock CA manifold. Dunno what clearance like in a left hand drive tho, Europe predominantly rhd.

[Buddyworm]

a, say 350hp turbo doesn't need anywhere near that amount of renditions. Finely matched? Fail again, even amidst the GT2xxx cloud of confusion, there's NO magicCan't just say "get a 2871". Wanna do the honours... spec the exact one then ?

GT2871R 71mm, 48 trim, .60 A/R compressor. .64 A/R Turbine housing.http://www.turbobygarrett.com/...1.htm

The 48 trim puts the compressor in its sweet spot for a wide range of the CA's operation and will haul a** to redline while the .64 A/R housing will be good for spool.

As I said before, it's not that I think the oldschool journal bearing turbos suck, they don't; I think they're awesome, especially for what you pay. I simply dispute your argument that all the different variations of the 2871r are, at best, marketing department fakery. Take a look at the compressor maps of all the different variations of 2871r's, the 48 trim wheel is radically different from the 52 trim wheel because they're designed to flow differently through different ranges to suit the different flow characteristics of different engines being used for different things.

Which is exactly why there are so many T3 variations out there! There is no "one size fits all" with turbos but it just so happens that the T3 frame was ubiquitous enough, with enough variations that it became exceedingly easy to mix and match components to reach the desired characteristics when operating on a bunch of different engines. Clipped wheels and whatnot are all ways of changing flow characteristics of the turbo, just like A/R and the design of the wheel itself (which, in case my point is still too vague, is exactly why there are so many different 2871R's to choose from)!

You sound like you think you're among a small group of marginalized people who've refused to buy into the Ballbearing cartridge orthodoxy that's been sucked in by the marketing department at Garrett. It's kinda absurd. I've seen first hand the wonders that Holsets and a bunch of other "unconventional" turbos can do on engines like ours but it's not because the center section is inherently superior or inferior in design.

[The_Chosen_One]

And this is the exact same bulls*** of why I got out of the Car Tuning Scene. Theirs always someone stroking their cocks.

[bentvalves]

its a thread about turbochargers, and dash is giving us HIS insight into GT series turbos.

did he step out of line in any way Julian? I didnt think so...

[The_Chosen_One]

its a thread about turbochargers, and dash is giving us HIS insight into GT series turbos.

did he step out of line in any way Julian? I didnt think so...

Its not that, its like a simple question with a simple solution turns into a debacle. It just never ends especially in the Nissan community.

You guys want the answer to your torque problem.

Boom here you go.



Cant polish a turd? Boom Myth busted you can polish a turd.

This is a ball of s***.

[sjbsuperman1425]

i kind of agree. OP asked a simple question and dash did kind of wander and start talking about BB and non-BB turbos..either way, i think the OP got his answer, but with a thread with some B1tching and moaning..

[dash]

good for whoever wants to bury their heads in compressor maps or dwell on the science of turbocharging. We drive neither. "dash" is a 'results oriented' person who has posted hard facts, simple as that.

Quote »SR20 guys swear by 2871r's and .2L ain't that big of a difference. Especially if you've sized your exhaust side properly. [/quote] TOO MANY CA18s exist to be wasting money "guessing" on assumptions. Bad advice imo.Two totally different motors at that. On one hand you embrace the variety offered... then on the other, you suggest "CA is close enough to an SR" ? Get real.CA18 combinations detailed, same use, same cams even. Constructive feedback/debates by CA users & tuners with experience of said turbos. ns.com & sxoc. No use ?

Quote »they're just running conservative boost because you can flow the same CFM at less boost with a larger turbo as you can with a smaller turbo at higher boost. [/quote]yes, and u won't make the torque, as high or as early. Don't dwell on peak hp.EVERY street monster I've seen ~26-30psi. Exactly how small turbos put up impressive ETs for what they are, should the urge arise.for example;Cortina MKI mentioned aboveSome heavy 2L 3-3350 pound street DSMs down into mid 11s, puny evoIII 16G! From observation, a CA18 + E3-16G S13 will surpass that considerably, with same effort.You can keep your response, AND crank it up/rip it up. Your choice

Quote »There is no "one size fits all" with turbos [/quote] End of debate!!!! Neither is a 2871.... as you're implying here. Quote »2871r gives you waaaaaay more room to grow in the future[/quote] Tell us... what exactly do u think a 48trim/0.64 will "grow into" ?YCA18T on ns.com; GT28RS/0.64 17psi @3500, 210kw, rb20 afm, 440, ca16 cam. 11.8s ETNot good enough ? question is.... should OP build for him/now.... or you/later ??

Quote »exactly why there are so many different 2871R's to choose from)![/quote] Oh really ? T3/T4 has ran the gamut approaching 300-600hp. A GT28xx will/has/can NOT service that range ANY better. The same age-old turbo compromises live on.... despite the hype.

Quote »I'm just surprised because you would think that the impeller design would have improved over time and deliver better results.[/quote] Ahah, same "mindset", doing u in. Again... stay away from assumptions. Leave that for the sheep. Exactly the point I've been trying to make.Why do you think all those long "GTxx vs.." pages/threads exist ?Our quickest starion (2.6Lsohc) clubmember drove his car to work everyday. 10.4sec ET pump gas, stock cam!. Old POS T04B @28psi. Lites up tires instantly

Quote »You sound like you think you're among a small group of marginalized people who've refused to buy into the Ballbearing cartridge orthodoxy ....[/quote] Dunno where you'd get that silly idea from.... but, whatever. - lol. I post info based on research... Fk hype. Take it how u want.

[The_Chosen_One]

[sjbsuperman1425]

why are you beating this to death?? this wasn't supposed to be a debate, and i unfortunately, got into it. You are giving good information, but for the wrong reasons, as i dont believe the Disco Potato or 2871 are T3/T4 turbos or 16G turbos are they? so why bring it up? this is just killing the effienecy of the forum.

[Ca_Silvia]

haha Christmas in June! my 2871 showed up today... OMG this f***er is way bigger then the t25s ive had before.

pics in a bit...