We all know that this subject has been beaten to the ground regarding KA vs SR... but before you tell me to search,read up on my situation here and give me any iput you can that you think may help me in my decision making process.
Alright, at the moment I am the proud owner of a 1992 S13 HB (RMS13) that is quite clean, and runs very well with 167k on the clock. I also have the great honor to own a Mitsubishi Evolution VIII, but due to the recent passing of my father and my mounting school bills, I have decided to sell it in order to invest a large sum in hopes to turn a profit by the time I am done with my schooling.
Because I am getting rid of my Evo, I have had a hole in heart due to the loss of looks and speed that the Evo offered me on a Daily driven basis. To replace the Evo and seam the hole in my soul, I am looking to either do an SR swap with some goodies involved, or do a full KA Turbo build up. I am just having the darndest time trying to weigh out which will be the better choice for me.
I will be daily driving my S13 upwards of 15-20k over the coming 2 years (not driving it in the winter once it is Boosted.... I think ) and plan on upgrading continuously until it is up to my standards of looks and performance.
Since money really isnt an issue for me concerning the swap (although I want to keep it around $2500 or so) what do you think will be the better option for me in the long run?
- A full front silvia clip + basic upgrades-SR motorset + relatively major upgrades-Full KA Turbo build
My goal for the car is to have a reliable,smooth, completely driveable 300whp/wtq with 93 octane.
What would you do if you were me, and why?
DAMN what to do!? SR Clip? KA-T build? tough for me to decide...HELP!
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Bobby12many
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- Car: 240sx, 300zx, Evo
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Ubernoober
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Stock SR swap: The cheapest and lowest power solution. The problem is the potential hack-job done during install.
SR swap + major upgrades: Unless you rebuild the lower end this would be the midpriced option. If you rebuild it is right up there with the KA if not more. The problem is the unknown lower end. 300whp is taking a big chance on the condition of the lower end.
KA-T: Most expensive due to the need to delve into the bottom end to guarantee any kind of long term reliability at 300whp. But the easiest by far since you can keep all the original bits. Not only that, spare blocks are just a junkyard away, and parts are right there for you at the local parts store.
Since you don't give a dollar amount I can't really add much else. If $2500 is your build limit you won't get 300whp reliably in either engine. I am sure others will disagree, but only those with a 300whp SR or KAT have any legs to stand on.
SR swap + major upgrades: Unless you rebuild the lower end this would be the midpriced option. If you rebuild it is right up there with the KA if not more. The problem is the unknown lower end. 300whp is taking a big chance on the condition of the lower end.
KA-T: Most expensive due to the need to delve into the bottom end to guarantee any kind of long term reliability at 300whp. But the easiest by far since you can keep all the original bits. Not only that, spare blocks are just a junkyard away, and parts are right there for you at the local parts store.
Since you don't give a dollar amount I can't really add much else. If $2500 is your build limit you won't get 300whp reliably in either engine. I am sure others will disagree, but only those with a 300whp SR or KAT have any legs to stand on.
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Bobby12many
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- Car: 240sx, 300zx, Evo
Re: (Ubernoober)
thanks forthe input man. Much appreciated.Ubernoober wrote:Stock SR swap: The cheapest and lowest power solution. The problem is the potential hack-job done during install.
SR swap + major upgrades: Unless you rebuild the lower end this would be the midpriced option. If you rebuild it is right up there with the KA if not more. The problem is the unknown lower end. 300whp is taking a big chance on the condition of the lower end.
KA-T: Most expensive due to the need to delve into the bottom end to guarantee any kind of long term reliability at 300whp. But the easiest by far since you can keep all the original bits. Not only that, spare blocks are just a junkyard away, and parts are right there for you at the local parts store.
Since you don't give a dollar amount I can't really add much else. If $2500 is your build limit you won't get 300whp reliably in either engine. I am sure others will disagree, but only those with a 300whp SR or KAT have any legs to stand on.
As for a spending limit, I dont necessarily have one.... I just cant really justify spending more than $2500 or so to get the car in running/boosted fashion. Once the swap is done, the upgrading will never end I am sure
Also, I was under the impression that 300whp from an SR was a easily acheivable feat with 93 octane and some BPU....? what is the weakpoint here?
if i were you and was going to get an sr20 i'd get a motorset over a clip. are you gonna do the swap yourself?
ubernoober what r u talking about the lower end? rods/pistons? the sr's stock rods/pistons could hold 300hp...
i think you'll need more than BPU's to get 300hp.
if i were you i'd get the sr20. you can swap it and have a turbo motor to work on. the ka your gonna have to peice together parts and its gonna take longer.
ubernoober what r u talking about the lower end? rods/pistons? the sr's stock rods/pistons could hold 300hp...
i think you'll need more than BPU's to get 300hp.
if i were you i'd get the sr20. you can swap it and have a turbo motor to work on. the ka your gonna have to peice together parts and its gonna take longer.
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Bobby12many
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- Car: 240sx, 300zx, Evo
Re: (240DRFT)
I think the Motorset would be the best Idea too now that you say something.... although I cant imagine getting 300whp to be that hard.240DRFT wrote:if i were you and was going to get an sr20 i'd get a motorset over a clip. are you gonna do the swap yourself?
ubernoober what r u talking about the lower end? rods/pistons? the sr's stock rods/pistons could hold 300hp...
i think you'll need more than BPU's to get 300hp.
if i were you i'd get the sr20. you can swap it and have a turbo motor to work on. the ka your gonna have to peice together parts and its gonna take longer.
New Mani, 3" exhaust, Intake, MBC, FMIC, and bigger injectors/pump?
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Ubernoober
- Posts: 539
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Sorry.Let me be a bit more clear.
On a used SR, the factory compression ratio, rods, pistons and all that jazz can handle the 300whp. The question comes from whether it was all maintained or not. Sometimes you get a sweet engine. You simply bolt on your upgrades and head to 300whp and beyond. Other times you get a used and abused engine. You bolt on your speed parts and things start to go sour right away. You cannot tell without getting in there, and once you are there, why not new bearings, bolts and rings? If you put new bolts in your rods you MUST have them machined. If you are going to do that, why not balance also? See how it all adds up?
The stock KA bottom end is just as good except for the high CR and poor pistons. But again, how well maintained was this engine?
In both cases a rebuild answers these questions, but costs an arm and a leg. If you have lots of time, but little money, you go stock KA and just source new junkyard engines as you kill them. If on the other hand you work stupid long hours and commute like a fool (me), you prefer to put it together once and not mess with it due to time constraints. Ergo, a rebuild with known quality parts designed to stay together at my target boost range.I think a bigger problem than engine condition is choosing the right fuel control for your target of 300whp. You can still destroy the best rebuild with a cheap as crap fuel delivery system that causes you to detonate. Choose wisely my son. You did own an EVO afterall, so you have an idea what goes into a well designed system.
On a used SR, the factory compression ratio, rods, pistons and all that jazz can handle the 300whp. The question comes from whether it was all maintained or not. Sometimes you get a sweet engine. You simply bolt on your upgrades and head to 300whp and beyond. Other times you get a used and abused engine. You bolt on your speed parts and things start to go sour right away. You cannot tell without getting in there, and once you are there, why not new bearings, bolts and rings? If you put new bolts in your rods you MUST have them machined. If you are going to do that, why not balance also? See how it all adds up?
The stock KA bottom end is just as good except for the high CR and poor pistons. But again, how well maintained was this engine?
In both cases a rebuild answers these questions, but costs an arm and a leg. If you have lots of time, but little money, you go stock KA and just source new junkyard engines as you kill them. If on the other hand you work stupid long hours and commute like a fool (me), you prefer to put it together once and not mess with it due to time constraints. Ergo, a rebuild with known quality parts designed to stay together at my target boost range.I think a bigger problem than engine condition is choosing the right fuel control for your target of 300whp. You can still destroy the best rebuild with a cheap as crap fuel delivery system that causes you to detonate. Choose wisely my son. You did own an EVO afterall, so you have an idea what goes into a well designed system.
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hannibal
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- Location: Washington DC
Re: (Ubernoober)
Youre right, this has been beating to death.Its all up to you.
My advice: If youve never worked on an engine before, stick with the KA. They have just as much potential as the SR. 300whp is attainable with stock internals. And its already in the car. If you find a high mileage 240, you can swap in a low mile motor for well under $500.No waiting for your motor to come in on a boat. No $2000-3000 investment just to get the stock 180?whp SR in the car.
My advice: If youve never worked on an engine before, stick with the KA. They have just as much potential as the SR. 300whp is attainable with stock internals. And its already in the car. If you find a high mileage 240, you can swap in a low mile motor for well under $500.No waiting for your motor to come in on a boat. No $2000-3000 investment just to get the stock 180?whp SR in the car.
KAT all the way. The only people having problems with KAT's are the ones ghetto rigging their fuel and timing management. Yes the ring lands are the weak link but if you don't detonate you are fine. Check out the NICO sponsor "Boost Designs" they have some of the best prices I have ever seen for their kits. Hell the stage 3 kit comes with internals etc.
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BlackFlag_s13
- Posts: 846
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Re: (IWannaS15)
Isn't it 205 in the stock redtopIWannaS15 wrote:Youre right, this has been beating to death.Its all up to you.
My advice: If youve never worked on an engine before, stick with the KA. They have just as much potential as the SR. 300whp is attainable with stock internals. And its already in the car. If you find a high mileage 240, you can swap in a low mile motor for well under $500.No waiting for your motor to come in on a boat. No $2000-3000 investment just to get the stock 180?whp SR in the car.
thats at the flywheel...its right around 180 at the wheels
ive thought about this a while too, however im still doing other stuff that will make it so i can handle the power (suspension, brakes, etc.) so i still have time to think about it...im leaning right now towards getting a kade and turboing that, right now i have the kae and it seems much harder to get parts for, though its also a possibility, but it would also lead to downtime if you turbo the motor in the car. if you get a second engine and prep that and everything on the side, then when its all ready you drop it in, leads to much less downtime
ive thought about this a while too, however im still doing other stuff that will make it so i can handle the power (suspension, brakes, etc.) so i still have time to think about it...im leaning right now towards getting a kade and turboing that, right now i have the kae and it seems much harder to get parts for, though its also a possibility, but it would also lead to downtime if you turbo the motor in the car. if you get a second engine and prep that and everything on the side, then when its all ready you drop it in, leads to much less downtime
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fullthrtl_tech
- Posts: 469
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- Car: 93 240sx
You cant do a "full KA turbo build" for $2500, it just cant be done.
...That is, if when you say "full build" you really mean full build. Machine work and just forged pistons with the basics will cost you $1500 right there (at the LEAST), and you havnt even touched fuel managment or the turbo itself: both of which are expensive as you probably know.
You could pull off a KA-T setup for $2500, but most certanly not a built setup. Compare that (unbuilt) KA-T to a SR clip and you've pretty much come down to a choice of style and preferences rather than finances.
...That is, if when you say "full build" you really mean full build. Machine work and just forged pistons with the basics will cost you $1500 right there (at the LEAST), and you havnt even touched fuel managment or the turbo itself: both of which are expensive as you probably know.
You could pull off a KA-T setup for $2500, but most certanly not a built setup. Compare that (unbuilt) KA-T to a SR clip and you've pretty much come down to a choice of style and preferences rather than finances.
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Bobby12many
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Re: (98s14inaz)
so 10psi can be safely driven daily?98s14inaz wrote:Stock internals will handle up to 12psi with the correct fuel and timing managment. Assuming the engine was well taken car of.
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Nismo_Freak
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Sigh, not another one
Ok, if you want a reliable and cheap setup then I suggest a low boost KA-T. There is reasoning behind this.
1. Spare motor should be reworked and in 100% perfect running order. You can put pistons n stuff in it if you want but I think the stock stuff is fine for holding 7-10 psi on a reasonable turbo. I suggest you replace most seals (mains F&R, etc.) to prevent small leaks. You should give the motor a complete tune-up in the fuel and ignition side of things. Verify the compression is good and leakdown is within reason. It would be in your best interest to replace timing chain components as well. This will give you a good base to turbocharge.
2. Availability of the KA engine itself is alot higher than the SR. It also operates on a simplified valvetrain, and a relatively easy setup. If the motor blows you can always revert back to another KA. Even ran in N/a trim... which is still possible but it won't run very well with the turbo tune.
3. No wiring mess, it eliminates associated problems that I've seen on at least 3 cars in my local area alone.
4. Don't get concerned with money. Once you start cutting corners on any project you create problems. Be sure you can afford it before you jump in with both feet.
I still prefer the SR engine, but I don't suggest it for you given your criteria.
Ok, if you want a reliable and cheap setup then I suggest a low boost KA-T. There is reasoning behind this.
1. Spare motor should be reworked and in 100% perfect running order. You can put pistons n stuff in it if you want but I think the stock stuff is fine for holding 7-10 psi on a reasonable turbo. I suggest you replace most seals (mains F&R, etc.) to prevent small leaks. You should give the motor a complete tune-up in the fuel and ignition side of things. Verify the compression is good and leakdown is within reason. It would be in your best interest to replace timing chain components as well. This will give you a good base to turbocharge.
2. Availability of the KA engine itself is alot higher than the SR. It also operates on a simplified valvetrain, and a relatively easy setup. If the motor blows you can always revert back to another KA. Even ran in N/a trim... which is still possible but it won't run very well with the turbo tune.
3. No wiring mess, it eliminates associated problems that I've seen on at least 3 cars in my local area alone.
4. Don't get concerned with money. Once you start cutting corners on any project you create problems. Be sure you can afford it before you jump in with both feet.
I still prefer the SR engine, but I don't suggest it for you given your criteria.
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Bobby12many
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Re: (Nismo_Freak)
Thank you for taking the time to type all that out!Nismo_Freak wrote:Sigh, not another one
Ok, if you want a reliable and cheap setup then I suggest a low boost KA-T. There is reasoning behind this.
1. Spare motor should be reworked and in 100% perfect running order. You can put pistons n stuff in it if you want but I think the stock stuff is fine for holding 7-10 psi on a reasonable turbo. I suggest you replace most seals (mains F&R, etc.) to prevent small leaks. You should give the motor a complete tune-up in the fuel and ignition side of things. Verify the compression is good and leakdown is within reason. It would be in your best interest to replace timing chain components as well. This will give you a good base to turbocharge.
2. Availability of the KA engine itself is alot higher than the SR. It also operates on a simplified valvetrain, and a relatively easy setup. If the motor blows you can always revert back to another KA. Even ran in N/a trim... which is still possible but it won't run very well with the turbo tune.
3. No wiring mess, it eliminates associated problems that I've seen on at least 3 cars in my local area alone.
4. Don't get concerned with money. Once you start cutting corners on any project you create problems. Be sure you can afford it before you jump in with both feet.
I still prefer the SR engine, but I don't suggest it for you given your criteria.
You made some very clear points that rang in my head for a while.
I think I am going to start piecing together my turbo kit for low-boost KA, and in the meantime replace all of my worn suspension parts.
Once all of the Turbo parts are here and installed, I can look about building a stout little KA block that can handle a tad more boost.
Thanks again for the input!
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Nismo_Freak
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Re: (Bobby12many)
Yeah no problem. Believe me... it's nice to have the ability to build a project on the side. That's one MAJOR benefit to the KA-T is that you can start the project with little money and work at your own pace. Make sure everything is right before you drop the motor in.Bobby12many wrote:Thank you for taking the time to type all that out!
You made some very clear points that rang in my head for a while.
I think I am going to start piecing together my turbo kit for low-boost KA, and in the meantime replace all of my worn suspension parts.
Once all of the Turbo parts are here and installed, I can look about building a stout little KA block that can handle a tad more boost.
Thanks again for the input!
Re: (Bobby12many)
I trust my engine. I have had this engine since 16k. It has been in two cars now. Never a problem. 10psi will be safe with the correct fuel, timing , cooling management. I would run a ebc too to help prevent your boost from spiking. Do not use a safc for managment. If you are concerned about daily driving use JWT for management, they have been proven to work and give reliable and safe numbers. Honestly there is no reason to drive around at full boost anyway. Set it at 7 psi until you feel the need to humiliate some one then turn it up. The sr guys aren't always right. The KA will work just fine under boost and give more power under the same boost levels than an sr. Go check out http:///www.ka-t.org and do some reading and check out the cars. KA-t > SR
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Eikon
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Re: (98s14inaz)
I think you should go RB20det. Fits your price range.. generally same power potential as SR/KA-t, etc... Best sound by far.
The real reason I am posting is:tell me about the EVO you are selling. I have a friend here in Green Bay who is looking for one. Is it still for sale? How many miles? color, condition, mods, price, etc...???
Thanks
The real reason I am posting is:tell me about the EVO you are selling. I have a friend here in Green Bay who is looking for one. Is it still for sale? How many miles? color, condition, mods, price, etc...???
Thanks
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ILikeMy240sx
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Bobby12many
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- Car: 240sx, 300zx, Evo
Re: (Eikon)
The Evo is a 2003 with Wing and SUnroof. 15kmi, Blue By You color, IMMACULATE condition (not a flaw on it!)Eikon wrote:I think you should go RB20det. Fits your price range.. generally same power potential as SR/KA-t, etc... Best sound by far.
The real reason I am posting is:tell me about the EVO you are selling. I have a friend here in Green Bay who is looking for one. Is it still for sale? How many miles? color, condition, mods, price, etc...???
Thanks
MODS:HKS RS Intake KitBuschur 3" Turbo Back Exhaust (no cat)Walbro Fuel PumpDynoflash Tuned ECUHallman Manual Boost ControllerWeapon R Engine Torque DamperUK EVO VIII badgeRed Vinyl Taillight overlaysCustom 3 gauge panel in DashJVC KD-LH3000 CD/MP3 DeckInfinti Kappa 6.5" Coax all around
And countless hours of detailing and tinkering to make it the PERFECT rocket of a daily driver. Never stalls off throttle, Boosts 20.5psi all day and holds boost like a rock. Probably one of the nicest modified Evos in the country
Im asking $26k flat out for it. its about a year old, and has seen no accidents, fender benders, off road excursions, etc. STiicker is $31.7K
here are a few pics of the car (im a photography buff ).....http://www.myttz.com/bobby/EVORainyMilw ... n4.jpgFeel free to email me whenever you get the chance and Id be happy to send any other pics or info you need.
[email protected]
Re: (ILikeMy240sx)
Plug and play. It runs a little rich but that is peace of mind if you have a boost spike and or some other issue. You are less likely to detonate.ILikeMy240sx wrote:Dont you still need SAFC to fine tune JWT ECU? Or is the JWT ECU just plug and play
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Eikon
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Re: (Bobby12many)
NICE CAR!!! I want it... wanna trade for a S13 'vert with RB20det? yeah... nevermind.. I don't have enough "money to boot". But, if I can't have it, maybe my buddy can take it off your hands.
wow!
What do you think HP is now with ECU tune, exhaust, etc..? I know my bud is looking at a used one at a dealer in Appleton (5500 miles stock for $25,200).
You obvoiusly have put a lot of money into the car though... very well worth it in my opinion.
I will show him this thread and see if he wants to contact you about it.
later. Seth
wow!
What do you think HP is now with ECU tune, exhaust, etc..? I know my bud is looking at a used one at a dealer in Appleton (5500 miles stock for $25,200).
You obvoiusly have put a lot of money into the car though... very well worth it in my opinion.
I will show him this thread and see if he wants to contact you about it.
later. Seth
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fightinchunk
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:22 pm
Re: DAMN what to do!? SR Clip? KA-T build? tough fo ... (Bobby12many)
go with the KaT build up it can have higher horsepower gains and if done right will last as long as the Sr.
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MECPInstaller
- Posts: 811
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- Car: installing stereo systems and minor performance upgrades
When i was new to the whole turbo charged situation, I thought the sr and rb engines were gods and i still think they are very nice engines, but I'm the kind of diy person with not awhole lot at one time. So i bought a spare ka(well a whole parts car for that matter) and i'm taking the ka apart and learning how it all works and rebuilding it. In the early days i had dreams of huge horsespower that would blow american muscle away but i've leaned more towards low 200hp to keep my daily driver and only car streetable, so i'm deciding to go ka-t. I haven't done much so i can't say which is the better option but like many have said you can get spare ka's alot cheaper and since boost designs came out you can get a very nice kit for a reasonable price. so 400 or so for a ka and 2800 for there kit and another 500 or so for a new timing chain and gaskets and your pretty well set for a decent engine that should get to at least 220 hp and 7-10 psi without a problem if its tuned properly of course.