damn horny bastards

[w1ngzer0]

put the rubber on lmfao

Notice after the 1950's the population skyrockets lol
Modified by w1ngzer0 at 9:15 PM 10/24/2004

[Jesda]

Malthus was so full of crap.

[yashin]

Malthus was so full of crap.

Not really, I just don't beleive that he accounted for the technological inventions that would allow us to grow large quantities of food.

I.e. gm foods, fertilizers, pesticides, etc. etc.

I'm sure if we were growing food like in the 19th century, things would be much different.

[Jesda]

You're right. To be fair, he was unable to predict technology, so he was unintentionally wrong.

[PalmerWMD]

A lot of this is conjecture.

Once oil hits $200 a lot of folks simply ont be abke to afford to eat.

We are eating fossil fuels once those are too expensive, due to lower supplies, all counties in the world will see the size of their populations adjusted (due to famine).

The green revolution is due to extensive use of oil consuming technology.Pesticides, herbicides, Fertilizers all possible due to oil.

A huge chunk of the human population is at risk for starvation, as the carrying capacity of their lands is much much less, than their population size and once oil rises above a certain price the bulk of tehir populations wont be able to produce enough resources to pay for the oil needed to feed them.

[PalmerWMD]

So in otehr words Malthus was rigth, because w/o the green revolution the human population would not have reached its current level as tehre simply wouldnt be enough food.

The green revolution is not sustainable ad infinitum and there will be a big dying .

Probably not in one generation but possibly in our lifeteimes yet.

And this isnt even inclduing desertification.

The big dying will start slowly, more riots more resource/oil wars, more immigration from on-the-edge countries ( which will soon starve) to richer countries.

The The US will be one of teh last countries to experience teh big dying as we have huge reserves of coal and the resources to process them. (most otehr countries have neither)

[Chingon]

but you can fertilize w/cowdung..

[jdmfreak]

Thats a lotta **** though.

[GoinBoostYey]

China has a rule where you can only have 1 or 2 kids I cant remember whch, but you get taxed a lot if you have more than the legal limit.

[PoorManQ45]

Wow. Fred.... It seems that you are the only other person that I know that realizes that oil prices are going to continue to rise.

realize it people. The "pipes" are running dry. Pretty soon, I mean relatively, you will not be able to get gasolene. And if you are able to get it, it will only be a few gallons at a time.

The problem is, most americans think that there is a never-ending supply of oil. This simply is not true. Because of this obsurd thinking, amreicans are buying SUVs and large Trucks at an alarmingly high rate. These vehicles get an average of 12MPG. I guess many people have much more money than sense. No offense to anyone who bought one of these vehicles

Read and Take to Heart If you are looking to buy a new car soon, please take mileage into consideration. IMO, the MPH is the first thing that should be looked at. If it gets less than 25MPH city, 30MPH highway, you should keep looking. Now, this eliminates most of the "cool" or "muscle" looking cars, but these higher mileage cars will allow us to extend what little oil we have left.

[Jesda]

Technology will save the world's behind once again. We did it with food production, we'll do it again with energy.

[JDMaholic]

I actually just went to an information session with exxon mobile, they were hiring engineers. They were talking about some of the different processes and indicators for looking for oil and extracting it. I clearly remember one of the things that they said was that they "permently evacuate" a well once it is no longer "profitable". When I asked the guy about that he basically said that they pack up and leavewhen the purity and quantity of oil make it not worth getting, even though there is more in there. There is also lots of oil in northeren Canada and other very hard to drill places. So it will likely will take a while for oil to be completely depleted, but it will probably become much more expensive, at least thats what I think. Oh ya and you can also make oil from things like corn, and hydrogen cells may not be as far away as we think.

[PalmerWMD]

Technology will save the world's behind once again. We did it with food production, we'll do it again with energy.

We did it with food production at the expense of non renewable resources.The curent size of teh human population ( much less a lot of growth) is simply not suatinable.

You have to look at what is the carrying capacity of teh planet w/o fossil fuels.

Maybe the human population in 1500 accurately reflects the lands carrying capacity .

In the long term when oil shale and coal are also exhausted every country that has a population much in excess of that number will see its population adjusted via famine to that number of 1500 AD.

Will this happen in short and medium term? NoAfter opil is gone we still have oil shale and then coal liquification.

Coal liquification works and is almost economical under current prices but eventually if that will run out (200 years?) then the human population will readjust down to nearly pre-industrial levels.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Pretty soon, I mean relatively, you will not be able to get gasolene. And if you are able to get it, it will only be a few gallons at a time.

This is already beginning to happen. I was on the Air Force base the other day and noticed that the pumps limit transactions to 25 gallons. It won't be too long (relatively) before all pumps are this way, military or otherwise.

[PalmerWMD]

I actually just went to an information session with exxon mobile, they were hiring engineers. They were talking about some of the different processes and indicators for looking for oil and extracting it. I clearly remember one of the things that they said was that they "permently evacuate" a well once it is no longer "profitable". When I asked the guy about that he basically said that they pack up and leavewhen the purity and quantity of oil make it not worth getting, even though there is more in there. There is also lots of oil in northeren Canada and other very hard to drill places. So it will likely will take a while for oil to be completely depleted, but it will probably become much more expensive, at least thats what I think. Oh ya and you can also make oil from things like corn, and hydrogen cells may not be as far away as we think.

yes the is more left but it is more expensiove and will take more resources to get.All teh cheap oil is gone which is why it was gotten to first.

The world has used up about half of all oil that ever existed and consumption is rising.Get ready for $10+, gas in our lifetimes.get ready for poor families spending half of their income on gasoline, jsut to get to their jobs.

Homelessness will rise for working poor, as the combination of dramatically higher food prices and gas prices wont leave enough $$ to own or rent even a cheap apt.

Ot think third world in US aka 5 families sharing one 2 bedroom apt.This wil be the reality here.Of course by the time we are ta that stage PPL in the rest of the world will already have starved by the billions.This also makes teh immigration discussiona ppear in a new light.This country will be a great survival island for teh next couple centuries, for its current population, but not for any extra PPL.

Fred

[PalmerWMD]

Right now we are living in an Age that future generations will refer to as the "Golden Age"

[mys13rocks]

well besides using fuel for car there always electric cars that are now being made along with new hydro electric gas cars. like the honda crx. the one that can go 60 miles to the gallon. (bet the car is hella slow though)i mean if oil is gone then every body is just gona have to use electric cars as a mean of transpertation.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Hydro electric...no. Hydrogen fuel cell. BIG difference. But yeah. Unfortunately that technology is probably 10 to 20 years away from consumer marketplace applicability. It's incredibly inefficient and there is still the necessity for a refueling network for such vehicles. A big issue is safety while fueling. Hydrogen is quite volatile, and tends to explode from as little as gaseous expansion. That means lots of dead people and cars unless a decent safety measure can be found.

[PalmerWMD]

Also were does hydrogen come from?

Fossil fuels.

There will never be such a thing as a hydrogen economy.

The internal combustion engine is here to stay even at double or triple our current gas prices it is still the best all around technology.In Europe they are at triple our gas prices and PPL still drive.

It cuts down on folks living far from work and on teenager and retiree driving but otherwise cars are still freely used at $6/gal.

Fred..

[MinisterofDOOM]

Actually, hydrogen will come from the air...and from water...which are both rather plentiful--for now.

The thing is, amidst all this apocalyiptic worrying, we must remember one important thing: the law of conservation of energy. All the energy that exists on the earth right now will always exist here. We must simply adapt new ways of tapping into it. We can never deplete the earth's energies themselves, only one or another form of those energies. Water is a great example. The only way water leaves the earth is that which goes out when astronauts take a leak. Of course, once we start using it as fuel, it will begin to deplete, and a new plentiful source will arise. We just need to be careful not to deplete things our bodies need to survive.

[silencer.1]

Hydrogen will be the new fuel. 2/3 of water is hydrogen and when burned produces pure water. I don't see the world running out of water anytime soon and it won't be that much more expensive to produce than gasoline. A hydrogen ICE even has similar power limits as a gasoline ICE. I forsee no doom and gloom in the future. The human race as a whole is not stupid, it just requires a few forward thinkers to get the ball rolling.

[w1ngzer0]

bleh. You guys obviously don't read the news. Hydrogen being used across the USA in 10-20 years. Being used in california in 5. In 5 years there will be a hydrogen station every 10 miles or so on I-5. Hydrogen isn't made from just water. There are 3 other sources but i forget which. They want water becuase it burns the cleanest

So those people that do long commutes can take advantage of the 70 MPG hydrogen vehicles. Along with no gas or brake petal. Just floating along.

After hydrogen vehicles become popular and start being sold more across the USA. The will have a way for you to plug your car into your house.

Not to drain eletricity but to give your house electric, heat your water, and i don't remember them talking about heating your air in your house though. But 1 hydrogen system will heat your water and power your house. The whole point of a hydrogen economy is this.

Not needing to import fuel. Not needing to run off of power lines and power plants. Using solor panels to power the a/c or whatever other things your hydrogen unit isn't doing.

What else....... Oh... anyway i wouldn't worry about water right now. Not becuase of people taking the water and making it into fuel, but becuase the sun will burn up all our hydrogen eventually.

[Chingon]

yep...I think you guys are exaggerating a bit. I mean, we still got that plentiful supply down in Antartica that's under agreement no to drill. And Iceland is running on hydrogen, and has been for quite a while. Just read in a magazine about some roof tiling made of solar cells that will take care of 66% of the power in your house for something like 30k $. I mean, humanity is not going through some crazy **** anytime soon. I forgot who said, but it was in the lines of "humans will never go extinct. They will always adapt to their environment".

[Jesda]

Gas prices are already too low relative to inflation. They -should- be at $5/gallon and up. Worrying about energy is good for the future, but not necessary for consumers. As long as there is demand and need, someone will find a way to supply.

[PoorManQ45]

You are exactly right Jesda. Gas prices in the US have been held artificially low.

The problem with Hydrogen as an energy source right now is that we produce hydrogen by using fossil fuels.

I remember reading in Popular Mechanics a while back that a guy actually invented a portable electrolysis machine that ran on a combination of solar and wind power. All you had to do was fill up the "gas" tank with water and that was it. One of the nice things about using electrolysis to get the hydrogen is that you also get more oxygen to feed into the combustion chamber.

I read somewhere that currently hydrogen is not an efficient energy source for the masses. Meaning that it takes more energy to refine hydrogen then the hydrogen gives off when burned.

Now, to overcome this inefficiency, a renewable energy source can be used to refine the Hydrogen. This renewable energy source could/should be Solar or Wind power.

I recently took a road trip through the Mid-West US. I noticed that they have huge wind-mill farms everwhere. I read up on these "wind farms" and found out that in rural areas, they supply more than 30% of the power to homes. To me, this seems very smart.

[Jesda]

Some of the most interesting solar panels available now are made to look like regular shingles. In fact, they -are- shingles, that happen to collect sunlight. No more having a big ugly shiny object on your roof.

[AZhitman]

Think about this next time you support some damn tree-hugger:

Much of our current energy crisis is due to massive barriers thrown in the path of nuclear power.

Despite the wails of the hand-wringers and malingering crybabies, nuclear power is safe, clean, efficient and a FAR better use of natural resources than fossil fuels.

Ridiculous red tape and over-regulation (yes, something like nuclear power CAN be over-regulated) have driven companies like Bechtel (world's largest builder of nuke plants) to greener pastures, and THAT is unfortunate.

Hydrogen (as Fred said) is no more a reality than teleportation, because of several reasons:

1) Big oil opposes it2) It requires fossil fuels to create/capture it3) Farming interests and most automakers oppose it

I like the idea of flywheel powered vehicles - do some reading on it and let me know what you think. Keep this in mind: A flywheel-powered vehicle could theoretically do 0-60 in 2.2 seconds, haul 8 people comfortably, use NO fossil fuel, last 200K miles, emit ZERO emissions and noise, and cost well under $20K.

IF (BIG IF) the dying gasps of the petroleum industry would quit blocking progress.

In a roundabout way, environmentalists and big oil are fighting the SAME fight from different sides, and neither realizes the other is his ally.

[w1ngzer0]

It would take the power of a nuclear power plant to help make hydrogen "instant"

[Altiman94]

I'm interested in this flywheel powered vehicle you speak off, can you send me a link or something.

AZ is right, nuclear power should be in use. It is definitely safer and cleaner. It's just too bad it gets a negative stigma by the general population.

[AZhitman]

Haven't read about it in a while, seems to me I read about it in Pop Mech or some other periodical. Search away!