)
Dammit!!!
A small note on hell, I dont have a bible nearby, if someone knows where it is and can look this up, awesome: Hell is a place totally devoid of god, not necessarily a place where you lay on burning coals crying all day. I believe we discussed that in Sunday school a couple years back (one of the few times...churches dont like to talk about hell for some reason )
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AZhitman
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crzycav86 wrote:I'm afraid that the catholic church doesn't teach this. When this Nancy person gets the other thread back, I'll continue the discusison from there. However I'm not sure that you're catholic, so instead of pulling out the catechism, I might be forced to pull out the good old bible
Ah, yes - Please do. Because if they're NOT teaching what Phil discussed, then they're teaching from some other book, which is a *teensy-weensy* problem. Phil had it nailed.
Of course, I don't have a plastic statue on my dashboard to protect me from harm, so perhaps I can be enlightened as well.
Seth - Great point.
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AZhitman
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A lot of you guys have not yet reached the "age of accountability", which is different for everyone.
Some of you haven't yet experienced enough of life (good and bad) to make such decisions... Also, some people haven't been exposed to the Gospel - Those people can't be expected to make a decision yet as to what's for them.
Just relax, keep being good to people, and open to learning.
Some of you haven't yet experienced enough of life (good and bad) to make such decisions... Also, some people haven't been exposed to the Gospel - Those people can't be expected to make a decision yet as to what's for them.
Just relax, keep being good to people, and open to learning.
YA! wheres the deleted post? j/k..
Anyway, choose whatever religious beliefs will let you live the best life. If you are satisfied with your life and do the most good that you can possibly do, then you have satisfied God. I personally don't believe that you have to have a personal relationship with God to satisfy him. You need to have the characteristics of a person who has a personal relationship with God(if that makes any sense). Don't let anyone tell you that you're going to hell because you aren't a christian. Tell that person to go to hell, because anyone that condemns another person deserves to be condemned themselves.
The christian attitude isn't about condemnation, its about love..... blah blah blah, you guys don't wanna read anymore if it gets all mushy mushy about God's everlasting love and perpetual forgiveness.....
Anyway, choose whatever religious beliefs will let you live the best life. If you are satisfied with your life and do the most good that you can possibly do, then you have satisfied God. I personally don't believe that you have to have a personal relationship with God to satisfy him. You need to have the characteristics of a person who has a personal relationship with God(if that makes any sense). Don't let anyone tell you that you're going to hell because you aren't a christian. Tell that person to go to hell, because anyone that condemns another person deserves to be condemned themselves.
The christian attitude isn't about condemnation, its about love..... blah blah blah, you guys don't wanna read anymore if it gets all mushy mushy about God's everlasting love and perpetual forgiveness.....
Ok, after searching, here is what i found from the catechism:
"Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. The Father has given "all judgment to the Son".586 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.587 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.588 "(ccc 679)
and a few lines later, it restates it in brief:"When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace."(ccc 682)
Those few lines were from part 1 alone.
Here's what I found in part two:The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior. (ccc 1129) Note in the above: It mentions that the sacraments are necessary for salvation FOR BELIEVERS
This is what I found on the necessitry of baptism:"The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." (cc 1257)
I'm getting tired of searching... But I hope I proved my point. I got all of this from an online catechism: http://www.vatican.va/archive/...c.htm
"Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. The Father has given "all judgment to the Son".586 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.587 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.588 "(ccc 679)
and a few lines later, it restates it in brief:"When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace."(ccc 682)
Those few lines were from part 1 alone.
Here's what I found in part two:The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior. (ccc 1129) Note in the above: It mentions that the sacraments are necessary for salvation FOR BELIEVERS
This is what I found on the necessitry of baptism:"The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." (cc 1257)
I'm getting tired of searching... But I hope I proved my point. I got all of this from an online catechism: http://www.vatican.va/archive/...c.htm
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crzycav....
At the very least, I hope that people will see that and appreciate the text for what it is. I think too many individuals these days 'hear' about the Bible and the scriptures and just assume it's some Joe Bazooka cartoon strip or something completely worthless. It is an amazing literary work that has withstood the test of time.
At the very least, I hope that people will see that and appreciate the text for what it is. I think too many individuals these days 'hear' about the Bible and the scriptures and just assume it's some Joe Bazooka cartoon strip or something completely worthless. It is an amazing literary work that has withstood the test of time.
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Placing a document of the RC Church in higher authority than the Bible is a grave error.
But then again, I mentioned another "grave error" above that wasn't addressed.
Incidentally, in reference to the point made by someone else, in the original thread, that the Episcopalian bishop was not a "practicing homosexual" - I just re-read the article. He has been living with his partner for over a decade. I'm sure they sleep in seperate rooms. :rolleyes
Interesting how this could work out: A priest who is gay can have a lover, but a straight priest is not allowed to have sexual relations... No wonder they're feeling up the altarboys.
But then again, I mentioned another "grave error" above that wasn't addressed.
Incidentally, in reference to the point made by someone else, in the original thread, that the Episcopalian bishop was not a "practicing homosexual" - I just re-read the article. He has been living with his partner for over a decade. I'm sure they sleep in seperate rooms. :rolleyes
Interesting how this could work out: A priest who is gay can have a lover, but a straight priest is not allowed to have sexual relations... No wonder they're feeling up the altarboys.
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Originally posted by AZhitman "]Placing a document of the RC Church in higher authority than the Bible is a grave error.
Agreed, but I don't think its intention is to be usd as a higher authority than the Bible. It is OF the Bible, and meant to be used as an impliment of teaching. At least that's how I interpret this;
11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church's Magisterium. It is intended to serve "as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries".[15]
12 This work is intended primarily for those responsible for catechesis: first of all the bishops, as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. It is offered to them as an instrument in fulfilling their responsibility of teaching the People of God. Through the bishops, it is addressed to redactors of catechisms, to priests, and to catechists. It will also be useful reading for all other Christian faithful.
I went through 10 years of catechism and never once was I told that it, in any way, was meant to replace, override, or overshadow the Bible. It is a little disturbing to see that amongst its principal sources are the "Church's Magisterium". I wonder what license that gives them?
Originally posted by AZhitman Interesting how this could work out: A priest who is gay can have a lover, but a straight priest is not allowed to have sexual relations... No wonder they're feeling up the altarboys.
Haha... yeah, that does call some priorities into question.
Agreed, but I don't think its intention is to be usd as a higher authority than the Bible. It is OF the Bible, and meant to be used as an impliment of teaching. At least that's how I interpret this;
11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church's Magisterium. It is intended to serve "as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries".[15]
12 This work is intended primarily for those responsible for catechesis: first of all the bishops, as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. It is offered to them as an instrument in fulfilling their responsibility of teaching the People of God. Through the bishops, it is addressed to redactors of catechisms, to priests, and to catechists. It will also be useful reading for all other Christian faithful.
I went through 10 years of catechism and never once was I told that it, in any way, was meant to replace, override, or overshadow the Bible. It is a little disturbing to see that amongst its principal sources are the "Church's Magisterium". I wonder what license that gives them?
Originally posted by AZhitman Interesting how this could work out: A priest who is gay can have a lover, but a straight priest is not allowed to have sexual relations... No wonder they're feeling up the altarboys.
Haha... yeah, that does call some priorities into question.
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