convertible handles better?

[nissanconvert]

out of boredom and curiosity, i propose that the convertible should handle ( with proper suspension setup) better then a coupe/ hb. With the top down the center of mass is lower in the car and more toward the lighter back end of the car. Also, the additional bracing seems mostly in the bottom of the car between the axels not necessarily hindering the handeling. Any thoughts?

[madcowvert]

my vert has a strut bar a under brace bar and fullbody cusco suspension.

my vert handels like a champ!!!

i have had people drive my vert and tell me that they cant belive how much the vert can stick to the ground.

[Red coupe]

I think the vert is heavier on a less structurally sound chassis, its a cool car but if your trying to make a track car it might not be the best start. not to say it cant be made to handle well but a coupe or hatchback would always be a better start for pure performance concerns....

[madcowvert]

I think the vert is heavier on a less structurally sound chassis, its a cool car but if your trying to make a track car it might not be the best start. not to say it cant be made to handle well but a coupe or hatchback would always be a better start for pure performance concerns....

DO YOU OWN OR HAVE YOU DRIVEN A VERT?

IF YOU HAVE THEN YOU WOULD FEEL THAT THIS CAR HAS A VERY STERDY CHASIS

[AZhitman]

I do know this:

Mine has a stiffer chassis than any of the coupes / hatches I've seen... People who come over and work on cars with me are always amazed at how rigid the chassis is when it's jacked up from one corner - the doors don't misalign.

Every hatch (and to a lesser degree, every coupe) we've tried that with has door misalignment when lifted from one corner (a couple hatches flexed so much the door won't open).

Ever seen the Do-Luch floor brace? The vert has one from the factory. The JDM fender braces you pay $200 for? The vert has those from the factory. Rear strut tower braces? The vert has a boxed-steel one from the factory.

The top and glass on a hatch weighs over 200 lbs, and is up high (where it can cause the most problems). Drop the top and you lose all that.

Just removing the sunroof from a coupe improves lap times - Imagine if you lost the whole top.

The vert does weigh more in factory trim: About 200 lbs more than a hatch, and 100 lbs more than a coupe.

But you can EASILY drop that much weight doing the door conversion and throwing on a CF hood.

[Eikon]

I can say from experience that my 96 240sx was a much better handler than my 'vert is. It fealt much more solid. To be fair though... that car had KYB AGX and Eibach springs... while my 'vert has stock suspension.

I'd love to drive madcow's or AZHitman's vert sometime to feel what a beefed up suspension can do for the 'verts handling. Without having done that, I have a hard time believing that the 'vert can have the same rigidity over a bumpy surface as the coupe does.

[top_secret]

I think you guys are all smoking rock, the vert is missing the roof. Its flexy as hell, and it weighs a couple hundred pounds more than comparable coupe. My coupe had a rusty frame and was still pretty competant. I'm probably running stiffer springs and more solid bushings than most of the guys on this forum, which pretty quickly reveals a cars faults, but I mean... you can put your hand on the A pillar and FEEL it shake as you drive. The vert has chassis bracing but it is no where near as stiff as aftermarket components are... the only thing that is going to stiffen it up to near the level of a hardtop is a rollbar. I've owned all 3 body styles of S13's and I drive other S13's on a regular basis and I have to say that there is no way the vert is anywhere near as stiff as either of them.

Also the weights you have are switched- the hatch weighs more than the coupe, not the other way around (that big rear window weighs a lot).

Sure that window weighs a lot, but its nowhere near the weight of the convertible top, pump, and hydraulic rams that the vert has.

The vert is great and I love it more than my hatch or my coupe, but its nowhere near as stiff as either of them (and miles away from the coupe). I have some more chassis bracing I'm planning on adding but when you take into account the amount of bracing you would have to add just to be near the level that a hardtop has stock, and then think about how stiff the hardtop would be with that much bracing... its no comparison.

also the "fender bracing" hitman is talking about... we have some thin gauge sheet metal woven in across the right angle of the fender structure, but its no where near the heavy gauge tubing in the aftermarket fender braces.

[AZhitman]

Methinks you need to tack on a triangulated front strut tower brace that ties into the firewall - My cowl / windshield header doesn't move a bit.

Like I said, jack up a corner of each car, open the doors and see.

Also, the fabric top / frame / rams / lines / pump don't weigh more than a hardtop with sunroof or a hard top with a hatch.

The added weight is in the bracing, the slightly larger brake rotors, and the additional bracketry / reinforcements for the seatbelts.

Biig OOPS on my numbers, I got the coupe and hatch reversed.

All I'm saying is the convertible, with a couple minor additions, is not this flexible wet-noodle car that people make it out to be. They've seen too many GM J-body cars...

[Red coupe]

I wasnt gonna point out your mistake but noticed that too...Im sure the verts can handle well but to say they are the best handing S13 is a bit of a streach for me.

[bgindn]

I currently own 2 coupes and one convertible and I can assure you that the convertible can be made stiff like AZhitman is describing. However those same modifications on a coupe result in a overall better handling car. This is based on my experience with my convertible and coupes which I have owned and stiffed up over the course of over ten years. However, like Eikon mentioned, maybe one day I will have the pleasure of sitting/riding in AZhitmans car and see how great his convertible does handle

harp

[afracer]

My convertible feels like it handles better than my 180SX did with the exact same suspension, but I can definitely feel the extra weight. I'd have to take it back to Japan on some of the mountain roads to really tell the difference but the first time I drove my convertible it felt a lot tighter than my 180SX ever did. I've got a Tanabe Sustec suspension with pillow ball mounts all around, 180SX sway bars, and pillow adjustable tension rods and rear suspension too. I plan on installing a strut bar, power brace, roll bar, and any more chassis stiffening parts as well as coupe doors and possibly a few other lighter weight items. In the end I think it'll handle pretty awesome and I would gladly challenge a coupe or hatch with similar mods to some spirited corner carving. It's more about how it's all set up and working rather than a couple pounds and type of chassis. Coupled with a good driver a convertible could easily take a hardtop... you guys sweat the details too much!

[ca18datsun510]

My convertible feels like it handles better than my 180SX did with the exact same suspension, but I can definitely feel the extra weight. I'd have to take it back to Japan on some of the mountain roads to really tell the difference but the first time I drove my convertible it felt a lot tighter than my 180SX ever did. I've got a Tanabe Sustec suspension with pillow ball mounts all around, 180SX sway bars, and pillow adjustable tension rods and rear suspension too. I plan on installing a strut bar, power brace, roll bar, and any more chassis stiffening parts as well as coupe doors and possibly a few other lighter weight items. In the end I think it'll handle pretty awesome and I would gladly challenge a coupe or hatch with similar mods to some spirited corner carving. It's more about how it's all set up and working rather than a couple pounds and type of chassis. Coupled with a good driver a convertible could easily take a hardtop... you guys sweat the details too much!

[TurboChargedSE-R]

There is no way a convertible will ever be a stiffer chassis than a coupe. Ever. The absence of a roof is almost impossible to overcome.

I am not saying a convertible can't be made to handle decently. I am saying that convertibles are inherent flexi-flyers, and always will be. It would take a slew of welded-in bracing to minimize the flex.

[audtatious]

Dude, did you read? The 'verts do have additional bracing from the factory. Per "jack tests", they flex LESS than the coupes do. This is not a 'vert mustang or camaro.....

[HaLo]

I can't wait to get mine to compare... I will be transferring all my suspension components from my hatch back and will be adding a roll-bar. We'll see how it handles, on the track.

[top_secret]

Dude, did you read? The 'verts do have additional bracing from the factory. Per they "jack test", the flex LESS than the coupes do. This is not a 'vert mustang or camaro.....

I agree that mine flexes less when jacked up, but that doesn't make it stiffer, eveything shakes on every bump.. I'm not sure what your point is about the mustang or the camaro, they are similarly reinforced to the 240sx and still flexier than the hardtops.

[audtatious]

I agree that mine flexes less when jacked up, but that doesn't make it stiffer

Then what does it make it?

[ca18datsun510]

next time im driving my car around jacked up, ill be sure to make a note of the stiffness.

[GrilledCheese33]

s14>all, LOL!

But I don't believe the vert is near as rigid

[Red coupe]

I would believe its near as ridged, would almost go as far as to say as ridged (no I wouldn't). But I don't think its so much more ridged then the regular S-13 that it makes up for a few hundred extra pounds. Does you handle as well with 2 passengers?

Im sure the vert is very competent....and with work can handle very well. But with the same work into a base model S13 I don't see it being slower around a race track.

[AZhitman]

I don't think anyone here said it would be quicker around a track. That's a stretch.

All I'm saying is this:

It's not a sloppy, flexible chassis (unless there's something wrong with yours).

There's a BUNCH of bracing, stitch-welding, and supports that the coupe or hatch don't have.

Incidentally, people spend a lot of $$$ to ADD those exact braces to coupes and hatches.

I have 25-30 S13 owners (half of whom own track cars) at my house for Tech Day once every month or so, and they're all impressed by how stiff the chassis is, how little it flexes, and how well it handles.

Remember, once you put the top down, even though it's heavier, the center of gravity is lower - Which, if you know anything about setting up a car for handling, is critical.

[Red coupe]

out of boredom and curiosity, i propose that the convertible should handle ( with proper suspension setup) better then a coupe/ hb.

And their you have it....I dont think any one here is trying to say that a vert cant handle even the title of the thread is that they handle better.If it handles better then a coupe I would expect to see a better lap time.Again s13 verts are awsome cars, and I would love to own one, but mod for mod they will not yeild more preformance then a base hatch or coupe.

[top_secret]

I'd trade the couple hundred pounds of extra weight for an ever so slightly higher center of gravity anyday. 100lbs= 1/10th of a second in the 1/4. anyway like I said, I've driven both there is no question that the coupe is way stiffer than the hatchback, and the hatch back stiffer than the vert. The vert's reinforcements are what was necessary to keep the car from coming apart and not much more. We can talk it to death and everyone has their own opinion, but I've driven all 3 in anger, with race springs and spherical bushings and low torque turbocharged motors, and ... yes there is a difference. Yes its enough that its noticeable. Yes you can brace the crap out of it and drive around it. But thats avoiding the point. hardtop=stiffer than vert. If you buy the vert looking for an awesome stiff lightweight chassis for a race car then you are starting in the wrong place. buy the vert cause it looks cooler and it lets your hair in the wind.

[wirelessalpha]

[QUOTE=Red coupe]....even the title of the thread is that they handle better...QUOTE]

I swear, before I clicked on this thread...all I thought was: Why the F would anyone post at least 10 responses to about a topic on convertible door handles...

PS: AZ Hit - so we vert owners have fender braces? Awesome...I'll have the scratch the JDM ones off of my "to buy" list.

[GrilledCheese33]

well just for fun:

When I jack my s14 up a foot behind the front tire it will lift that whole side of the car up, and the doors open, and do dot bend at all. I can open tth sunroof, hood, trunk, whatever, so I have on solid s14.

S14>ALL

[top_secret]

stock fender braces, as I said already in this thread, are light gauge sheet metal with a couple welds. they are no where near as stiff as the tubular ones, and then only go over the very edge of the right angle, whereas the aftermarket ones have a much longer diagonal. anyone familiar with how a lever works should know that the farther out you brace an angle the more effective a brace of the same strength will be. well, in summation, aftermarket brace: stronger and more effective.

[wirelessalpha]

ahh......back on the list it is..

[TurboChargedSE-R]

Dude, did you read? The 'verts do have additional bracing from the factory. Per "jack tests", they flex LESS than the coupes do.

Yes, I read very well, thank you. I also own a 240 convertible (and have owned a coupe). And the one thing I can say with 100% knowledge is that a 'vert will always be a more flexible chassis when compared to a coupe. You can't replace lopping the roof off a car. The closest you can get to that is putting in a 6 or (better) 8 point roll cage with the strut towers all connected to one another.

Which is kinda' what a roof does.

Quote »This is not a 'vert mustang or camaro.....[/quote]It doesn't matter what make or model you choose. Taking the roof off a car (and even adding in the factory bracing/panels/etc. that Nissan added to our cars) will always produce a weaker structure. It rears its ugly head in the form of cowl shake (watch your mirror or dash in a 'vert when you go over a solid bump) initially. But it adds up to so much more.

I'm not dismissing 240 'verts at all, as I love mine. The starter of this thread proposed that a 'vert would be a better handling/performing chassis due to a lower center of gravity because there is no roof. It's not the weight of the roof that makes the difference; rather, it's what the roof does (tying all four corners together).

Discuss.

(Edited because my QUOTE skillz suck today.)

[ca18datsun510]

i just got to take my convert for a spirited ride for the first time today.

have to say im pretty damn happy with it.

the difference between the convert and my 89 hatchback, and my friends 90 coupe is negligeable. its not that big a deal. but i do appreciate the power diff between sohc and dohc.

[nissanconvert]

A couple of things:The stock suspension was engineered for a vehicle with a roof and thus a convertible in stock form is at a disadvantage despite its added bracing.With good aftermarket suspension one gets a great deal of adjustability in reguards to the setup of weight transfer in the all important cornering.The setup of such identical suspension upgrades on a coupe/convertible would be different for each to maximise the abilties of each cars weight center and where to distribute it for maximum traction under cornering. (this is what i meant earlier in more or less terms)This would allow the convertible to take advantage of a lower center of mass and bypass problems with possible weakness in the top of the structure. Left to right the convertible has lots of bracing from the rear seat back, top of window and cowl which, imho, makes if at least as strong in that direction as a coupe. So front to back and corner to corner was apparently enough bracing to keep the doors in the appropriate spot while jacking up a corner..how much more do you need?Yes lots of badly designed convertibles present thier cases by not bracing approiately/at all, but they are not the 240sx and cannot be used as a reference to convertible performance. Otherwise both side could be stated as follows:I know from work experience that the sebring convertible will bend in half so to speak when jacked up or towed using two wheels on the ame end.Many well performing cars have no roof at all with good lower bracing, dodge viper, ariel atom, shelby cobra, many brittish roadsters, and i don't recall F-1 cars having much aside from a carbon fiber bubble or open air.I know one of the new BMW's thought enough of top end weight reduction to give it a carbon fiber roof.. and yet, not a carbon fiber hood.

Does anyone know how thick the rear pillars are on the coupe, cause the hatch frame and glass do nothing for rigidity but do add weight.By the way, how much weight does a sunroof add to the top of a coupe?

We should skid pad test an equally modified, properly setup, coupe and convertible to see which pulls more g's