Clutch and PowerFC probs

[420_240]

I took my car 7.5 hours to dynolabs in marietta GA yesterday only to turn right back around and come home...We got my car strapped on the dyno, had the wideband hooked up and ready to roll...The tuner, Ed, said something was wrong with the clutch... so i tell him it's a 6puck unsprung clutch it's always been that heavy (i mean this ***** is heavy). He was concerned because the clutch has no play in it..... The clutch doesn't engage until the pedal is depressed pretty far. (I'm thinking 'well everyone told me a 6puck would be a heavy clutch in the first place)So he tells me he's concerned that there's something wrong with the TO bearing and someone else suggested that maybe the pressure plate had been installed backwards...I told them i've already put 2000 miles on that clutch and i've never experienced a problem at all... no grinds nothing... just makes this very high pitched squeel before it engages....So that scared Ed the tuner into not wanting to tune the car until the clutch was fixed (I guess he didn't want to be liable for something catastrophic happening?)I spent all of today removing the transmission and upon inspection everything seems in working condition... I'LL HAVE PICTURES UP TOMORROW

My next problem was the PowerFC. After i changed the stock injectors to 550cc I tried changin the duty cycle.... basemap on the PFC was set at 100% on all 6 injectors... I turned the duty down to 67% on all injectors... thinking that this change would be saved I turned the car off and turned it back on.... the orignal 100% basemap returned and my changes were not saved.....The same problem happened with my tuner.... He'd make changes to the PFC and nothing would save... so he contacted some friends of his from rx7.com who deal with PFC and they said this should not be happening... they explained that it can't be lack of a constant powersource either because the PFC saves the data as "volatile data" and even in the event if you disconnect your battery... your tuned maps will not disappear.... I posted this problem up on skylinesaustralia.com and someone posted this, "This is a common problem in cars that have had engine swaps.It's to do with the wiring of the eccs relays. Basically when wired correctly the eccs relay maintains power to the ecu for a second or so after the ignition is switched off which is when the pfc saves it's files. If the car was an auto previously it makes it even more likely as the eccs trigger wire runs through the auto computer, which if unplugged doesn't trip the relay and so the pfc is running constantly off the backup power."

I have no clue why this thing is not saving the changes but i wrote the company (nengun.com) i purchased it from and I'm waiting for a reply... In the meantime i'm going to call apexi-usa and see what they think....

Any thoughts on my sh1tty situation are welcome as usual thanks in advance.

[420_240]

some pictures before the disappointing news....

[OKCA18DET]

that sux man...like ur car tho

[gawdzilla]

hey, i had the same exact problem w/ my power fc. basically it needs to go throgh a "shut down" process for the pfc to go through and save when you power off, kinda like Windows. if you're cutting ign to it, its kinda like ripping the power cord out of the wall on your computer. pfc is not going to have a chance to save and shutdown.

how did you do your wiring? make sure your eccs relay isn't directly triggered by your ign switch. the eccs relay triggering should be controlled by pin 16 of the ecu. make sure pins 1 and 3 of the eccs relay have +12v all the time. also make sure that your pin 58 has +12v all the time. if you're forcing those off w/ the ign switch, that will stop pfc from saving. good luck

[420_240]

That's what I've been hearing the more i dig up dirt about how the PFC saves data into "volitale memory". Mckinney Motorsports did my wiring... but that's not saying much. So does the ECCS recieve power longer than the ECU? What would you suggest about keeping power to the ECCS long enough for the PFC to save data????

[eh?]

Follow gawdzilla's instructions, ecu pin 16 is what closes the eccs relay contacts. You should have ecu pin 58 power all the time, if i's not it's probably hooked up to ignition hot.

[420_240]

I just looked at a diagram of the ecu and there isn't anything labled under pin 16... where's the eccs relay btw?

[420_240]

so pin 58 on the ecu is a constant power source?

[eh?]

Have a look at the ecu pinout on my site under specs and tech. pin 58 recieves power constantly. The eccs relay should be near the ecu on the ecu harness.

[420_240]

Ok i'm looking at a diagram of the ECCS C/U on an r33 FSM and another diagram from J.P.' s yahoo group.....Pin 58 (from ECU) runs to ECCS relays 1 & 3 (according to the r33fsm)and on the diagram from J.P.'s group... pin 58 (ecu y/b wire) runs to the TPS and to pin CD31 which is a separate plug from the ECU...So if pin 58 isn't recieving power constantly and wired only to ignition then the relay can't complete the circuit to power the FC long enough to save?How would I wire pin 58 to recieve a constant and what should i do with pin 16?

[eh?]

ECCS pin 1 , 3 and pin 58 are recieving constant power from that 10amp fuse (#8).On that wire diagram you are looking at the #'s incorrectly. It should be AF07 not AF33, those ar mating ends of the ecu amd harness, so you have to look at the opposite number. As for now just check that pin 58 is recieving power with key off.

[420_240]

ok i gotcha .... pin 58 is a w/b wire... I just went and checked w/ the key out of the ignition.... I was getting 12.25 constant

[eh?]

well that sucks. I do remember someone on SAU or SD havng a similar problem and fixing it. I tried searching those forums but couldn't find the thread.

[420_240]

FAAAWWWK..... I'm going to bed on that one... thanks for the help tho... maybe i should check the relay tomorrow? or pin 16 to see if it's grounded?

[Fenvy]

where did you get your powerfc?

phase2 warned me about this very problem. they said a lot of abused / used power fc have this problem

[gawdzilla]

you're halfway there. just having the "keep alive" (pin 58) at 12v won't do the saving. I BELIEVE doing that is sufficient for the oem ecu to not "relearn" every time, but pfc is slightly different. trust me, i had pin 58 on constant 12v and it still wasn't saving. the key is pins 1 and 3 of the eccs relay.

check pins 1 and 3 of the relay and verify they they're +12V w/o the key in. then check to make sure pin 16 of the ecu is continuous with one of the pins of the eccs relay. i dont remember which pin on the relay it is. diagram should tell you.

since your pin 58 is ok, my guess is your pins 1 and 3 of eccs relay are switched by ign. if that is the case, take pins 1 and 3 OFF of the switched ign and merge it into wherever your pin 58 is getting CONSTANT 12v from.

i seriously doubt the pfc's save features are broken. 99% sure its a wiring issue. mckinney probably doesn't encounter this problem that often because not everyone runs the pfc. plus you got it from nengun new right?
Modified by gawdzilla at 3:26 PM 6/27/2005

[420_240]

Loveless: i bought the PFC brand new from nengun.com... there's no signs of wear on the pfc at all....

gawdzilla: Ok... double checked pin 58 and there's a constant +12v. Checked eccs relay pins 1 & 3 with ign. off and there was no signal... I spliced a wire into pin 58 wire and ran it over to pins 1 & 3... now there's a constant +12v with ignition off at both pins 1 & 3. I haven't cut pins 1 & 3 from ign. power tho... Not sure how to do that?turned car on.... changed a setting on the PFC...turned car off... and still will not hold the settings. I don't have anything to check continuity but just incase to make sure... we bridged pin 16 (ecu-orange) to pin 5 (eccs orange)....tried a 2nd attempt to change settings and save still with no luck....

So we'll go ahead and triple check pins 58, 1, and 3 for +12V... Let me know if you think of anything... thanx

[gawdzilla]

try cutting the 1 and 3 away from the switched 12v. get 1 and 3 of the eccs from constant 12v only. make sure you cover the now open switched 12v wires, or they might short out on something when you have ign on. that should do it.

[420_240]

I tried cutting wires 1 & 3 from ignition today... after i did that pin 58, 1, & 3 had no constant...???? yeah i don't know WTF is up with this damn thing.

I resoldered pins 1&3 back to ign. and i still wasn't getting a constant (don't know what happened between today and yesterday... only thing i've done was cut the wires from ign. +12v source)

So I pull my cd player and find the constant to that.... i bridge from the cd player constant to pin 58.... (pin 58 has a direct line bridged from it to pins 1 & 3)..... I once again cut the wires to ign. on 1 & 3.... This time i was getting very little constant out of 1 & 3 (this is with ign. off keep in mind)... So now pins 1 & 3 aren't recieving any power from ign.... only from where 58 was oringinally getting it's power (which wasn't reading today) and from the constant bridge from the cd playerI put the key in and turn it to "on" and as soon as i turn it to "on" ... there's a fast clicking sound coming from my fuse box on the driver side.... turned key off immediately..... tried again... and again i get a rapid clicking noise...... This thing is about to make me burn my car down .......

[gawdzilla]

ok the rapid clicking noise is from a relay. i also had that problem w/ by eccs and ign relays. what happened with mine was, the otput of the eccs and ign relay to the ecu are supposed to be linked through pin 16. however, i had pins 1 and 3 of the eccs relay fed by constant +12v while pins 1 and 3 of the ign relay fed by ign +12v. when i turned the key to on, everything was cool b/c everything was seeing 12. but when i turned the ign off, relays started clicking like no end. i think this is because one relay still wants to stay switched while the other is trying to pull off.

i dont know what else to suggest. start tracing the wiring diagram and see whats up. if you don't feel like doing that, send your harness back to mckinney and see if they can figure it out. one of the reasons i didnt send my harness out was so i could potentially troubleshoot it when things F'ed up. it really forced me to learn how it worked by soldering all the wires myself. good luck man, i'm outta suggestions for now.

[420_240]

So I worked on it a little more tonight again.....I bridged a wire from the positive terminal on the battery to pin 58 wire.... now my 2 w/b wires have a constant +12v, orange has constant +12v, and the black/white wire has 0 when ign. is off..... Now my PFC won't turn off... it's on even with the key out of the ign.......What did i do wrong???

[gawdzilla]

Ok, go back and double check a few items. i'll list them off here.1) pin 58, pin 1 and 3 of eccs relay should be +12v2) pin 16 should be continuous with pin 5 of eccs relay3) pin 45 should be SWITCHED 12v. this is what will control your ecu's on/off.

other than that, i'm all out of suggestions. the best thing you can do now is to understand how mckinney did your wiring. trace through it and see what wires go to what, and match it up w/ the diagram. don't refer to wires by color, that just gets confusing. there are repeated colors everywhere. instead refer to them by what pin they go to, and where they connect. at this point you might want to send the harness back to mckinney and have them take a look, since they originally did it.

[eh?]

Was the tuner experienced with PFC's? I'm not sure with the HC but with the datalogit you would have to hit write or update to actually write changes. It doesn't change on the fly like say the aem ems.

[420_240]

Ok, go back and double check a few items. i'll list them off here.1) pin 58, pin 1 and 3 of eccs relay should be +12v2) pin 16 should be continuous with pin 5 of eccs relay3) pin 45 should be SWITCHED 12v. this is what will control your ecu's on/off.

Pin 58, 1, & 3 all have constant +12v.... I've been talking to JP about this and he told me the wires that go to pins 1&3 are both white/black... the black/white wire provides power to ecu, orange is ground.... but on a diagram i'm looking at.... (which isn't exactly clear)... it looks like pin 1 is a white/black wire... and pin 3 is a black/white wire... the second white/black wire looks as if it's pin 5.....

either way i took jon's advice and have both white/black wires +12v constant....

Gawdzilla you said pin 45 is a SWITCHED +12v correct?... I tested my pin 45 and i'm getting a constant +12v... I believe this is why my PFC won't turn off.... I checked the orange wire today and it's not getting a constant +12V anymore... I don't know why it did yesterday.

EH?: yeah the tuner is very familiar with PFC... he also advised me to get datalogit since it will save money on the tune cause it takes less time to tune with datalogit then it does on the H.C.

[gawdzilla]

sounds like your wiring is all jacked up.

there should be 2 wires (pin 1 and 3 of eccs relay) which are together. you can tell what pins of the relay are across from what by looking at the diagram. check continuity with the ecu to MAKE SURE you're messing with the right pins off the eccs relay. don't just go by wire color. JP is probably right, but its good to make sure.

Yes, pin 45 is SWITCHED 12v. that is what is going to tell your ecu to turn on/off.

the pfc doesnt need to go through an explicit save/write process in order to save. whenever you make a change, in one of the settings windows, it keeps it in voltaile memory. wen you shut it down (properly), it will automatically save those settings to solid state memory.

[420_240]

WOOT WOOT!!! THE POWER FC IS SAVING CHANGES!!!I've still got a bug to work out tho.....

I found a switched ign. power source underneath the steering column...

i tapped into that line and bridged it to pin 45 wire..... I clipped pin 45 from the part that supplied a constant +12v...Now when i turn the key to "off"... the eccs relay and a relay over by the fusebox begins to click rapidly.... the pfc stays on until power is taken away from the battery....

Pins 109, 49, and 59 all have a constant to them when the key is off... i checked with a test light

[FAST-DATSUN]

Why not try to call us???????.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Pin 58 get constant power to retain memory White/black,, Pins 49-59-109 should have Key power only , If you jumped the relay that whythe relay is working on/off/on...Pin 45 is the key on power to the computerpin 43 is start signalpin 16 is computer signal to ground for ECCS

in US cars ECCS relay doesn't have power all the time only the pin 58....... see Nissan factory wiring diagram.

951-304-9300 Mack
Modified by FAST-DATSUN at 5:20 PM 7/2/2005

[420_240]

ok the rapid clicking noise is from a relay. i also had that problem w/ by eccs and ign relays. what happened with mine was, the otput of the eccs and ign relay to the ecu are supposed to be linked through pin 16. however, i had pins 1 and 3 of the eccs relay fed by constant +12v while pins 1 and 3 of the ign relay fed by ign +12v. when i turned the key to on, everything was cool b/c everything was seeing 12. but when i turned the ign off, relays started clicking like no end. i think this is because one relay still wants to stay switched while the other is trying to pull off.

Gawdzilla... this is what my set up is doing now... key on everything is good.... key off... nothing but clicking... the PFC doesn't boot up either... it just stays on the screen "apexi"... until key is turned on of course and it boots up.... what did you do to get it to cut power?

I started looking around on the driverside relays... and found the relay that's clicking.... when i pull this relay... all the clicking stops on both sides... but the PFC stays on (with key out).... when i plug the relay back in... only it begins to click rapidly..... the relay has 2 black/yellows that go to the same pin, 2 black/whites, and 1 black/redMack: Are you talking about a S1 or S2??? Mine is a S2.
Modified by 420_240 at 4:39 PM 7/2/2005

[420_240]

FINALLY i got this pain in my a$$ working!!! turns out i never clipped a wire that went to pin 1 or 3 and it wouldn't let the PFC turn off when the key is off..... no more clicking or anything.... Saves the changes i make to it... DAMN IT'S A BEAUTIFUL THING....I'd like to thank gawdzilla, eh?, JonPowell, and mac for everyone's help!!all you guys rock!!-Andrew

[eh?]

I have a FC datalogit for $300shipped