Chernobyl as seen from a Kawasaki...

[redtop91]

I've seen one in my entire life. On the Santa Monica Pier.

[themadscientist]

so any effects from chernyoble? There may be some correlation, I don't completely understand it yet.

[bcar240]

It's a decent read and some interesting pictures.

However, I read about this before and I think it was discovered that although she really went there, the "motorcycle tour" of the site itself was fake. Supposedly she took a normal guided tour or whatever. One of the guides later talked about a person wearing riding gear taking pictures and such. Also, there are clearly pictures someone else is taking them. Anyway, that's all the conspiracy I can handle for the day.

[4cefed]

actually now you can take tours through chernobyle and into the town n ****...kinda trippy...the radiation is still high but i mean gamma rays are the only ones taht can go through ur skin if im correct..but still that would be a trip man...straight nobody in the town...although i herd some old ppl went back and still live there

heres the link if u want to go hah...they give u protective **** to wear although gamma rays will still **** u up

http://www.ukrainianweb.com/chernobyl_ukraine.htm

Don't post sh*t unless you know what you are taking about. Everyone on this earth is affected by radiation every day of their life. Every moment you have gamma and x-ray passing right through you. However, the amounts aren't much.

Alpha radiation can be blocked by a piece of paper or the layer of dead skin cells on the outside of your body. However, if they are taken into the body, (i.e. radon gas) they are very damaging relative to their amount.

Beta is slightly more penetrating going into the first few layers of flesh, it is much less damaging due to it's lower energy level. It can be stopped by plastic such as safety glasses.

Gamma and Neutron are the most penetrating. They are only stopped with several feet of water, concrete, or several inches of steel or lead. Gamma is not very damaging because it is a wave and not a particle. Neutron is very damaging because it is a particle and has lots of energy. Neutron is only found near fissile materials (uranium, plutonium) and not common in daily life.

X-ray is similar to beta, but is atomic radiation and not nuclear radiation, the only real difference is it's source.

Protective clothing is only warn to keep you safe from becoming contaminated, that means getting radioactive "dirt" on you. It will not keep you safe from radiation (other than possibly alpha.) Respirators are worn to filter radioactive contaminants in the air and prevent them from entering the body where they can do more damage.

[4cefed]

so any effects from chernyoble? There may be some correlation, I don't completely understand it yet.

That area of the Ukraine is uninhabitable in our lifetime, and for the lifetime of a few generations to come.

There are still problems to face with the reactor number 4 site. The sarcophagus is deteriorating and needs to be re-built. In conjunction with that, the concrete lid covering the ractor that was blown off by the explosion is still dangling dangerously over the remains of the core. If it falls is will kick up a sh*t storm similar to the original fallout.

Lessons learned:

1. Don't let Russians have access to fissile materials. Further example: http://www.bellona.no/bellona....31767(FYI- an acute dose of 500-600 R or 'roentgens' is enough to kill a human within 30 days)

2. Don't use graphite to moderate a fast-neutron reaction. See: http://www.nucleartourist.org/type/rbmk.htm

3. Employ the use of a robust containment structure. http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/....html and http://www.howstuffworks.com/nuclear-power.htm

This information brought to you by you friendly neighborhood Health Physics Technician.

.... and the letters H and V

.... and the number 3

[sbird1]

Awesome read! Thanks for posting that.

[Cold_Zero]

The History Channel had something on last night about Chernobyl. The premise of the show was the end of humanity and how the earth would change as a result. It was very interesting to see that Red Deer, Wolf and Russian Boar populations thriving in the area. Apparently the "Red Forest" is full of dead trees from the Radiation killing them. It looked like the "black forest" to me from the pictures.

That area of the Ukraine is uninhabitable in our lifetime, and for the lifetime of a few generations to come.

Do you mean uninhabitable for human life? It seems that plant life has grown back (soccer stadium has been reclaimed) and animal life has thrived. I dont pretend to be an expert on all this...

[nchopp]

That area of the Ukraine is uninhabitable in our lifetime, and for the lifetime of a few generations to come.

Just so you know, it really bugs Ukrainians when it is referred to as "The Ukraine". Back in the USSR it was referred to as "The Ukraine" much as we refer to a region, such as "The Midwest". Ukraine is now it's own country, and they feel rather insulted when they are still referred to as "just" a region.

[S13CoupeLover]

Holly crap, that sucks, but this disaster and about nuclear "products" is interesting.

Truly why do we have nuclear power plants in the world if it's a "hazard" if it explodes like the Chernobyl or in someway gets released out into the world?

shouldn't we be looking for a alternate power source then using something this can/will/most likely kill us if we get exposed to enough of it?e.g. lead paint they stopped producing it why? cause it was "not good" for us. even thought my parents miss that stuff, they said it lasted more then the paint we have now. But u know what can we live without it?? OF COURSE, soooo y do we need Nuclear power?/rant

[4cefed]

Holly crap, that sucks, but this disaster and about nuclear "products" is interesting.

Truly why do we have nuclear power plants in the world if it's a "hazard" if it explodes like the Chernobyl or in someway gets released out into the world?

shouldn't we be looking for a alternate power source then using something this can/will/most likely kill us if we get exposed to enough of it?e.g. lead paint they stopped producing it why? cause it was "not good" for us. even thought my parents miss that stuff, they said it lasted more then the paint we have now. But u know what can we live without it?? OF COURSE, soooo y do we need Nuclear power?/rant

I guess I didn't explain clearly that the graphite pile reactor is a relic and only the Russians took it seriously. Our very first reactor, Chicago Pile #1 or CP1, was experimental. We very quickly abandoned the technology in favor of the water moderated reactor design and it's variations. The benefit of the graphite pile is that is does not need to be shut down to be refueled.

I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure even the Russian graphite pile reactors have been shut down by now. But I think they were still operating even 5 or 10 years ago, very scary.

Water used in modern reactors have dual duty. They moderate the reaction from fast neutrons into thermal neutrons. If the worst possible case happens and the water goes away, the ability to generate thermal neutrons also goes away. This means that The core itself would heat up locally and melt itself, but that's about all. IN a graphite moderated reaction, if the cooling water goes away, the graphite remains and enables to core to produce massive amounts of heat. The explosion at Chernobyl was the result of a fast transient and it was actually steam that created the explosion. The molten core then burned it's way through the bottom of the reactor building, through the rock substrate, and into the water table. The Russian mentality was one of production and not of safety, they didn't even have a containment structure.

Every aspect of modern power reactors has been designed ground up from the aspect of safety first. There have at a minimum four totally independent trains of equipment that all work in different ways with the sole purpose of putting water into the reactor vessel and if necessary, flooding the entire containment structure. Containment itself was designed with earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, explosions, and even passenger airline crashes in mind. The reactors are also not computer controlled and not subject to any sort of EMP or Y2k scenario.

The only problem with the industry is that the facilities are getting old. No new reactor has been built since 1979 due largely to the media induced stigma in this country. Newer designs are more efficient, safer, and reliable. I am happy to see that there is a resurgence of interest and I believe, about 40 new license applications before the NRC right now. In this age, I believe that nuclear energy is an excellent form of power production that will get us into the future and will provide us clean energy until a new generation of energy production can go full-scale.

Nuclear power releases no pollutants into the air, water, or environment. The only side effect is the high level waste. Even the used fuel assemblies can be recycled into new fuel and they cycle can continue. This country needs to wake up and realize we can't burn coal to get 60% of our energy needs.
Modified by 4cefed at 11:41 AM 2/4/2008

[nchopp]

^ Knows his stuff.

It amazes me that the environmentalists, who whine day in and day out about the evils of fossil fuel, are the same ones that have done their best to keep nuclear power out of the realm of possibility.

[4cefed]

The History Channel had something on last night about Chernobyl. The premise of the show was the end of humanity and how the earth would change as a result. It was very interesting to see that Red Deer, Wolf and Russian Boar populations thriving in the area. Apparently the "Red Forest" is full of dead trees from the Radiation killing them. It looked like the "black forest" to me from the pictures.

Do you mean uninhabitable for human life? It seems that plant life has grown back (soccer stadium has been reclaimed) and animal life has thrived. I dont pretend to be an expert on all this...

Well, let's put it this way, I wouldn't live there. I'm only familiar with the effects of ionizing radiation on humans, different life forms have different tolerances. Plants and trees are more resistant however, as they grow in contaminated soil, they carry the radioactive contaminants into the plant structure. If plants are eaten for food, or wood burned for heat, the contamination spreads. This is why a two-pack-a-day smoker receives about 8R per LUNG per YEAR. (Tobacco plants have a habit of sucking up and concentrating uranium in the leaves.) My LIFETIME dose for working in this industry is only about 5R

I think mythbusters just experimented with cockroaches, fruit flies, and flour beetles. The flies dies off after receiving 1000 R, the cockroaches were eliminated with 10,000 R and most of the beetles survived 100,000 R. Remember, humans will expire in 30 days after receiving and acute dose between 500 and 600 R.

And to put things in perspective, the levels of radioactive contamination in the BREAK ROOM at Chernobyl are between 100 and 150kdpm. (thousand disintegrations per minute) These are the levels they eat their food in. To be in the same area in a commercial power plant in this country, I would have to wear the following:

1 pair cotton glove liner2 pairs rubber gloves1 or 2 pair high shoe covers2 pairs rubber shoe covers1 set fabric coveralls1 set plastic or non-permeable coveralls1 skull cap and full hood, or 2 full hoods. (Safety glasses and hard hat)

And depending on other circumstances, some type of respiratory protection:

Full face shieldRegular 'ol rubber faced respiratorPowered air purifying respiratorAir supplied "bubble suit"Possibly SCBA

The area would be considered a "High Contamination Area" among other things and access would be restricted in several methods. I worked with a Health Physics Tech that worked at Chernobyl after the accident so this is first hand info from him.

In the United States, a "clean" area inside the Radioactive Controlled Area (RCA) is less than 1kdpm. Still no eating, drinking, or chewing (and smoking) is allowed. Workers have to pass through two different kinds of whole body scanners to verify they have NO DETECTABLE ACTIVITY on them or any tools and equipment they brought with them before they can leave the RCA into the general plant areas. They still have to pass through one final portal scanner at security before they can go home for the day.

I could go on.....
Modified by 4cefed at 11:53 AM 2/4/2008

[4cefed]

^ Knows his stuff.

Thanks man. But compared to the rest of the industry, I'm still n00b.

It amazes me that the environmentalists, who whine day in and day out about the evils of fossil fuel, are the same ones that have done their best to keep nuclear power out of the realm of possibility.

EXACTLY! I guess if it's not solar it's crap. Oh, btw, I found a great video overview of a new design on youtube. The main differences from this design and current designs are the addition of a second concrete shell over certain buildings, and the extended separation of the "safeguards" (back-up systems) buildings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPi2kT_RbCI

[4cefed]

Just so you know, it really bugs Ukrainians when it is referred to as "The Ukraine". Back in the USSR it was referred to as "The Ukraine" much as we refer to a region, such as "The Midwest". Ukraine is now it's own country, and they feel rather insulted when they are still referred to as "just" a region.

Ok, sorry. What should I have said then?

[bobotech]

Ok, sorry. What should I have said then?

"Those damned Russkis!"

[bobotech]

Nuclear power releases no pollutants into the air, water, or environment. The only side effect is the high level waste. Even the used fuel assemblies can be recycled into new fuel and they cycle can continue. This country needs to wake up and realize we can't burn coal to get 60% of our energy needs.

Modified by 4cefed at 11:41 AM 2/4/2008

Agreed and good info!

I always thought that nuclear power plants made today with what we have at our disposal technology wise would make the plants MUCH safer than anything we made in the 70's. Never understood why we don't embrace it more.

30 years since the last power plant was built? I think a LOT of things have been improved since then.

[brizanden]

dude that is pretty cool i would like to go there

[nchopp]

Thanks man. But compared to the rest of the industry, I'm still n00b.

Well, my VERY limited knowledge comes from about 14 hours of HAZMAT training that just barely touched on radiation. So you're lightyears beyond me.

EXACTLY! I guess if it's not solar it's crap. Oh, btw, I found a great video overview of a new design on youtube. The main differences from this design and current designs are the addition of a second concrete shell over certain buildings, and the extended separation of the "safeguards" (back-up systems) buildings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPi2kT_RbCI

Yeah, and neither solar nor wind are viable alternatives to fossil fuel - neither can provide the amount of energy needed to power a city in any type of practical form.

Ok, sorry. What should I have said then?

Just "Ukraine", like with any other country. "In Ukraine, you drink vodka" as opposed to "In THE Ukraine, you drink vodka".

[rn79870]

30 years since the last power plant was built? I think a LOT of things have been improved since then.

I think much of the problem is disposing of the spend fuel. It makes no sense to me but apparently the nuclear fuel is still nuclear when it is spent.(as in used up?) Maybe someone else can explain that one.

[4cefed]

I think much of the problem is disposing of the spend fuel. It makes no sense to me but apparently the nuclear fuel is still nuclear when it is spent.(as in used up?) Maybe someone else can explain that one.

Well, the spent fuel isn't a problem as much as it is an "issue." A new commercial fuel bundle is 98% Uranium (U-235) and 2% Plutonium. The more plutonium the longer the bundle lasts. Government bundles are the opposite, 98% plutonium. That's why they only refuel carriers and subs about every 25 years. Commercial fuel is good for about 18 to 24 months.

When a new fuel assembly is created, it is barely radioactive at all. They are shipped in trucks in special crates. When a new bundle arrives at a facility, it has to be inspected and then if it passes, it is lowered into the spent fuel pool. During a refueling outage, (about a month long either in the spring or fall when demand is low.) about 1/3 of the bundles in the reactor are taken out. New assemblies are oriented with used bundles in the core. After the new bundles rest near used or "activated" bundles, they then become highly radioactive. The bundles that are taken out of the reactor have served their purpose and do not have enough material to efficiently sustain a reaction. However, they are still highly radioactive. They are transfered to the spent fuel pool for storage.

Here's where the waters get muddy. When power plants were being constructed, the government said they would have a repository facility open by the year 2000, so pools were designed to hold spent fuel until that time. Almost a decade has passed and we still don't have a license for the Yucca mountain facility. So, space is at a premium in these pools and plants have been forced to store the oldest spent fuel in dry casks.

We have the technology to recycle the bundles. We can sort out the depleted uranium and the active uranium and plutonium. From what I understand, the government is worried about the proliferation of plutonium in such facilities so they were closed. (And please don't think I'm blaming the government, I think they are right.) There are also many different types of reactors. There are some designs that produce more usable fuel than they consume. This is where the chemistry takes over and I start getting lost. These reactors are called breeders and I don't think they produce electricity.

I think it's possible to set up something to keep re-using and recycling spent fuel so we never have to bury anything. But again, I'm not 100% on that. So we have decided to bury the spent fuel in a repository inside the abandoned salt mine in Yucca mountain. Salt mines need constant maintenance to keep the tunnels open or they seal themselves. The area of Yucca mountain has no ground water table and it hasn't had one in 25,000 years. Spent fuel is shipped in specialized casks that are impervious to locomotive impacts and raging infernos. The radiation levels on the outside of casks are not much higher than background.

People are always worried that terrorists are going to get a hold of spent fuel and steal it. This always makes me laugh. Even if no security force existed, the fuel is self-guarding. It rests about 30 feet below the surface of the spent fuel pool. If they somehow got one up to the surface, they would be dead momentarily. (Think Nazis melting at the end of raiders of the lost Ark.) Storage casks are so big and heavy it takes a lot of specialized equipment to move or handle them.

Edit: The amount of fuel it takes to run a power plant for about 30 years sits comfortably inside 30'x70'x15' area. At one time 103 units were running in the US generating about 20% of the nation's power. Even with the worries over spent fuel, I think it's still worth dealing with as opposed to the billions of tons of carbon by-products released into the atmosphere.

Activated fuel assembly:

Modified by 4cefed at 4:31 PM 2/4/2008
Modified by 4cefed at 4:43 PM 2/4/2008

[rn79870]

4ceFed,So, does this waste continue to be radio active forever (a thousand years, etc.) or does it lose it's strength and become benine? What are other countries doing with their waste? Sorry for all the questions.

[x240xdrifter]

4cefed, I could pick your brain for hours haha

amazing stuff I know so little bout

[4cefed]

4ceFed,So, does this waste continue to be radio active forever (a thousand years, etc.) or does it lose it's strength and become benine? What are other countries doing with their waste? Sorry for all the questions.

I THINK the activated uranium has a half-life of about 25,000 years. So that means, in one half-life, half of the material is depleted of excess energy and is no longer radioactive. It might be 5,000 though and after 25,000 years it's not very dangerous. Short answer: It's dangerous for a long time.

I guess every other country with a nuclear program recycles it's fuel. For once, France is a model for something other than how to surrender. The country is 80% nuclear. Here's an article I found:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318688,00.html

[4cefed]

4cefed, I could pick your brain for hours haha

amazing stuff I know so little bout

I could go on for hours. (Haven't I already?) My wife thinks I'm boring, but I'm fascinated by the whole process and am proud to be a part of it. It's not like I'm saving lives, (although it might be possible) but I help provide electricity for 20% of the country.

[xekushnr]

They actually glow like that? That's pretty cool.

[rn79870]

4cefedSo, If I read that article you cited, there is about 56,000 tons of used fuel buried, or soon to be buried in Arizona, and that fuel will be radio active for many generations to come? But other countries are capable of recycling most of their waste. MAybe we need to learn a little lesson from them.

What do they do with the water in the holding pools? Is it radio active too?

[Jookmasta]

dang 4cefed, u are the nuclear guru. i say give a free title in relation to his nuclear knowledge lol. but seriously, we really skimmed the surface as to the whole radiation process when i was getting my degree in chemistry. it truly is funny to see that normal everyday people bash nuclear powerplants as if they are ticking time bombs. granted the incident in ukraine was horrendous but as mentioned early, the precautions taken in the US were/are light years ahead of what the chernobyl facility had.

as i'm sure u know, we south floridians get a good chunk of our power via nuclear source. i think it's called the turkey power plant or something or another. nonetheless, that thing has been around before i was born and we have never had any issues with the safety of it. despite all the hurricanes and storms, no hints of an explosion or something catastrophic due to the extreme precautions taken when the facility was put into operation.

my only question to you 4cefed is what exactly will happen when the salt mine that yall use store the nuclear "waste" becomes full? what if there's no more room for said materials? where will they start putting them then?

[4cefed]

4cefedSo, If I read that article you cited, there is about 56,000 tons of used fuel buried, or soon to be buried in Arizona, and that fuel will be radio active for many generations to come? But other countries are capable of recycling most of their waste. MAybe we need to learn a little lesson from them.

What do they do with the water in the holding pools? Is it radio active too?

That sounds about right. Keep in mind that stuff is heavy, 56,000 tons isn't a lot.

The water in the pool is not itself radioactive. But it is contaminated with potentially high level particles. This water like any other contaminated water system can be filtered and rendered clean. Once water is in a power plant, it is continually recycled and re-used. The only water that leaves the plant is the cooling water gathered from either rivers, lakes, or oceans. It was clean when it came in, and it's clean when it goes out. It usually leaves in the form of water vapor. Even the septic system is monitored just in case.

With pressurized water reactors, the primary coolant loop recirculates in the reactor vessel and the steam generators. It is a highly contaminated system, but it spends almost it's entire time inside containment. Small amounts are extracted and filtered or used elsewhere, but it always stays in the auxiliary building. The secondary loop circulates between the steam generators and the turbine and is then condensed back to water to be heated and turned to steam in the steam generators again. This system is "clean" but does have a small potential to become contaminated at a low level. A third loop circulates between the river or lake and the condenser and then either back to the river or into a cooling tower where it will be sent back to the plant. If there is any leakage in this loop it leaks into the plant and not out of it. It is always kept at a higher pressure than the secondary loop. This loop is always clean clean.

I agree with you, this country should develop a recycling program so we can more effectively use nuclear power.

[4cefed]

dang 4cefed, u are the nuclear guru. i say give a free title in relation to his nuclear knowledge lol. but seriously, we really skimmed the surface as to the whole radiation process when i was getting my degree in chemistry. it truly is funny to see that normal everyday people bash nuclear powerplants as if they are ticking time bombs. granted the incident in ukraine was horrendous but as mentioned early, the precautions taken in the US were/are light years ahead of what the chernobyl facility had.

as i'm sure u know, we south floridians get a good chunk of our power via nuclear source. i think it's called the turkey power plant or something or another. nonetheless, that thing has been around before i was born and we have never had any issues with the safety of it. despite all the hurricanes and storms, no hints of an explosion or something catastrophic due to the extreme precautions taken when the facility was put into operation.

my only question to you 4cefed is what exactly will happen when the salt mine that yall use store the nuclear "waste" becomes full? what if there's no more room for said materials? where will they start putting them then?

Turkey Point, St. Lucie and I think Chrystal River are all in your neck of the woods. I haven't worked any of them yet, they can be tricky to get into. I think they will shut down and go offline when a big hurricane comes just in case.

The planned repository will stay open so long as we use nuclear power in this country. I don't think it will ever fill up. I can only assume in the next 100 years we find some other way of getting electricity. So when every plant has been decommissioned, and taken apart, and all the fuel is stored inside, the plan is to let the caves seal themselves and just keep it guarded against mining in the future. I would hope that one day they put a reprocessing plant next to it and don't end up storing anything permanently.

You have a chemical engineering degree? Holy sh*t, beyond (2H + O --> H2O) it is all black magic to me. Have you seen this chart of the elements?

http://wwwndc.tokai-sc.jaea.go.jp/CN04/index.html

[x240xdrifter]

I'm very close to a power plant, you might know of it, on the coast of Southern New Hampshire???