"Cash for Clunkers" destruction rules released today

[Epod]

The dealer will drain the oil, replace it with an abrasive solution, and run the engine. This will trash all the surfaces lubricated by engine oil. On the bright side, it should leave most of the fuel path and air intake parts alone.

{caution - the full rule is about 6 Mb in size}

http://www.cars.gov/files/TheRule.pdf

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[paranoidjack]

God, that just makes me so angry.

An old Megadeth song:---------------------------------------A cockroach in the concrete, courthouse tan and beady eyes.A slouch with fallen arches, purging truths into great lies.A little man with a big eraser, changing historyProcedures that hes programmed to, all he hears and sees.

Altering the facts and figures, events and every issue.Make a person disappear, and no one will ever miss you.

Rewrites every story, every poem that ever was.Eliminates incompetence, and those who break the laws.Follow the instructions of the new ways evil book of rules.Replacing rights with wrongs, the files and records in the schools.

You say youve got the answers, well who asked you anyway?Ever think maybe it was meant to be this way?Dont try to fool us, we know the worst is yet to come.I believe my kingdom will come.

ChorusF is for fighting, r is for red,Ancestors blood in battles theyve shed.E, we elect them, e, we eject them,In the land of the free, and the home of the brave.D, for your dying, o, your overture,M, they will cover your grave with manure.This spells out freedom, it means nothing to me,As long as theres a p.m.r.c.

F is for fighting, r is for red,Ancestors blood in battles theyve shed.E, we elect them, e, we eject them,In the land of the free and the home of the brave.D, for your dying, o, your overture,M is for money and you know what that cures.This spells out freedom, it means nothing to me,As long as theres a p.m.r.c.

Put your hand right up my shirt,Pull the strings that make me work,Jaws will part, words fall out,Like a fish with hook in mouth.

Rewrites every story, every poem that ever was.Eliminates incompetence, and those who break the laws.Follow the instructions of the new ways evil book of rules.Replacing rights with wrongs, the files and records in the schools.

Im not a fishIm a manHook in mouth!

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*nothing else to say*
Modified by paranoidjack at 12:29 PM 7/24/2009

[aces805]

My friend that works at a huge service department at a prominent dealership in LA told me that they're instructed to pour beach sand into engine via the oil cap. Also, sand down the radiator cap and power steering and brake fluid reservoirs.

IMO the government has overestimated the public's desire to buy new cars. I don't care about a $3500 - $4500 subsidy if I'm not in the market for a new car. It's borderline comical.

[MinisterofDOOM]

What a waste. I can think of some older Fords I'd like to personally do this to, though. You'd think they'd be happy to see the cars get as much recycled use as possible...but no, just like everything else these days, it's ALL about fuel economy, because that's clearly the biggest and most important issue in the whole world.

[qship96]

Look at the big picture, and maybe you can see some benefit of improving the fuel economy of the USA fleet of vehicles on our roads such as less dependence on foreign oil, cleaner air,and ongoing reduced fuel costs to the consumer. For every cherished old Q that gets crushed, there will be hundreds, if not thousands of old, potentially unsafe beerfarts removed from our highways.

[Victor]

I really think the fuel economy issue is a cover-up of a bailout of the new car and replacement parts industry. They want to make it hard for people to get used and rebuilt parts to keep used cars running. Only those consumers rich enough to afford a new car will benefit from the program, which will make used cars more expensive and also more expensive to maintain. I also read that one of the first casualties of the program are charities that depended upon donations of used clunkers to finance their activities. Even as far as ecology is concerned the program is actually causing waste of materials and labor and energy and causing new vehicles to have to be built to replace them. by taking running vehicles off the roadI also don't understand why if one of the goals was to bail out American auto workers and manufactures they let participants use the rebate to buy foreign made cars using American taxpayers money. Some politicians must be getting rich on this.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Look at the big picture.

I'm looking at the bigGER picture. I was raised by a geologist, and I don't think of the world in terms of 4 or 20 or 100 years like politicians and hippies do. None of this MPG bullcrap is going to matter down the road. Whether cars clean up their act or not will be irrelevant. I'd rather focus on REAL issues. Humanity will continue to thrive regardless of whether some old Caprices continue farting nastiness into the air. Political climates and all of that are irrelevant. The world in 1000 years will not be any different if some rusty Caprices continue spewing smoke for a few more years versus being crushed.

[BLACKonBLACK98]

I really think the fuel economy issue is a cover-up of a bailout of the new car industry.

a very poor one at that.

[trajanH]

This bill is intended to stimulate the auto car industry and to get people into the dealerships buying new cars. It would be nice if you could trash your clunker and use the money to buy a used Prius or any used car that gets great gas mileage, but that would just open up the floodgates to everybody and the government probably does not have the money for that.Instead we get a bill that helps the auto dealerships but does not really do jack for the environment in a major way.

In this economy most of the clunkers are being dusted off and being put back on the road anyway. Few Americans really can afford to take on a new car payment, even with the government providing the down payment.

[audtatious]

It is also a way to implement said program that failed a number of years ago when SEMA and others killed it. Since this Administration took office it has been a Carte Blanche attitude in implementing every far-left and socialist policy which had previously failed.

[Driven_By_Hate]

This "bailout" might (probably not) help the US auto industry... But it is certainly helping line the pockets of some politians. Its a bunch of cr@p. If you think about it, don't most dealerships give you up to $5k in instant cash incestives anyway, are they still doing that on top of the "clunker trade in"? Or are you just getting about the same deals you could get before everyone became to broke to buy a new car?

[audtatious]

In a lot of cases there are dealerships giving the 4500 but calling it something else and the car still ends up on the used car market with the dealership making a profit on it.

[Kiven422]

The main plan is to boost the economy and slowly enforce a change of vehicles we use on our roads over the next 15-20 years.

The problem is that most new cars are made of plastic and engineered to break extra pieces when you are involved in a slight 2-3MPH accident.

Anyways, fuel is one of our biggest expenses. By 2012 or 2013 (forgot exactly), all vehicles by law must achieve over 30MPG. The savings on fuel can be spent at WalaMart to stop circulation of our money thus screwing our economy anyways. At least we have a choice to save ourselves... and the world.

[Jesda]

At least we have a choice to save ourselves... and the world.

If its a "choice" you exercise it voluntarily, without having to take it from the pockets of other taxpayers. Part out your Q45 and get a Prius.

[audtatious]

The main plan is to boost the economy and slowly enforce a change of vehicles we use on our roads over the next 15-20 years.

The problem is that most new cars are made of plastic and engineered to break extra pieces when you are involved in a slight 2-3MPH accident.

Anyways, fuel is one of our biggest expenses. By 2012 or 2013 (forgot exactly), all vehicles by law must achieve over 30MPG. The savings on fuel can be spent at WalaMart to stop circulation of our money thus screwing our economy anyways. At least we have a choice to save ourselves... and the world.

Except for the point where there are a large number of people who should be utilizing cheaper vehicles in the secondary market due to their income levels. There are potentially two issues that can I see: 1: older Secondary market vehicles will be more expensive (or lower availability) as they are used for trade in on a new vehicle at $4500. 2: Those who can't afford a new vehicle will use this as a means to purchase what they can't really afford. Of the two, I'm sure #2 will be the more dominant.

So, those who don't need the 4500 incentive, because their trade in is worth more than 4500 anyway, won't need this initiative as a justification to purchase a car. Those who can't afford a new car can use this as a trigger to get what they probably can't afford anyway. Cash for Clunkers effectively targets the poor which is a pretty crappy initiative when we already have a society hung up on using credit as it is. Repo's will probably increase, people will start going into negative-equity trades and Lord help them if they wreck their 1yo car when they have a 72 month auto loan and no gap insurance. Car insurance is also higher as compared to a secondary market vehicle which will put further pressure on those using this option.

How does screwing the poor save the world?

[MinisterofDOOM]

Audtatious' point also hints at one of my biggest problems with the program itself (not what it's doing, but how it does it) and that's that it's SO restrictive in what's eligible for trade and purchase (in addition to the fact that $4500 isn't enough to make a difference in a new car purchase which will easily add $15k to that) that it's not going to see much use. I can't think of a situation where someone would find themself driving a car worth less than $5k and suddenly decide they need a car that will cost them $15k+ (out of pocket, with $4500 [max, not guaranteed] from the gov't.). If they could afford a $15k+ car they wouldn't be driving a car worth less than $5k. OR they are driving a car worth less than $5k (like us) because they don't WANT a different car. Neither group stands to benefit. Who's left? People who were just waiting for more monetary incentives to get that $10k Versa for half-off and happen to be driving rusty, smoking Buick Roadmaster? All 5 of them? Sweet. Glad we've put forth all this effort for them. I'm sure Nissan will be glad for the 5 extra sales.The program restricts itself from being beneficial. There are so few cars owned by so few people who actually fit within the criteria that the program may as well not have happened at all.

[Q45tech]

The budget for the program is only $1 Billion that is enough for 250,000 vehicles and hopefully the US will sell 10 Million new cars.

The problem is the average fuel economy of vehicles on the road in 1990 was 16.4 today it has only increased to 17.4 MPG.When we were buying 16 million new vehicles per year it would take 18 years to cycle thru used cars. Now it will take 25-30 years.

There is no quick fix.

[trajanH]

The budget for the program is only $1 Billion that is enough for 250,000 vehicles and hopefully the US will sell 10 Million new cars.

The problem is the average fuel economy of vehicles on the road in 1990 was 16.4 today it has only increased to 17.4 MPG.When we were buying 16 million new vehicles per year it would take 18 years to cycle thru used cars. Now it will take 25-30 years.

There is no quick fix.

Well I know that they are trying to get these ole gas guzzling clunkers off the road but I wish that there were some more progressive ideas out there being implemented instead of these half assed solutions that in the end will have mother nature laughing at us but still giving an A for effort.Why not get our scientist to figure out a way to convert clunkers to electric or to install solar panels in clunkers to make them more efficient? Here in sunny Southern California so much solar power is being wasted by all of us driving cars?

I bought a solar panel to charge my battery and the plastic on the thing melted from the intense heat raining down on my dash everyday. Our scientist should be coming up with creative ways to harness this energy by building solar panels onto dashboards and roofs of every car. The government could subsidize a solar panel for every person driving a clunker in America. Something like that would be much more effective in helping our environment and moving our economy forward than giving people $4500 to buy new cars that they probably cannot afford.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Eh...photovoltaics are either expensive or inefficient. Car electric systems utilize a lot of amps, which is really beyond the reach of affordable photovoltaics. Some cars have had solar panels on the roof to keep air circulated in the car on hot days, but that's the best we've done.

No way you could charge a 12v car battery, much less an electric powertrain battery, with just car-mounted solar panels.

Plus "real" solar panels (glass, not plastic, as the protective material) are heavy...and the very very very very very last thing we need right now is YET ANOTHER government mandated weight-adder in our cars. Did you know a new FWD Taurus weighs more than our Q45s? THAT is why fuel economy isn't improving. Vehicle weight has increased dramatically over the last 15 years with mandates for every-increasing amounts of safety and babysitting equipment (the benefits of some of which, such as tire pressure monitoring, are highly debatable to say the least).

I think the best answer is for the feds NOT to mandate crap, not for them to mandate MORE crap. They may have good intentions (even that I doubt) but they have no real idea what they're doing.

If someone does something "right" and it "works" it'll catch on. Look at the Prius. No need for mandates and punishment taxes making expensive cars more expensive.

[audtatious]

Just have Obama mandate 80mpg or some such number? Also have Congress deem all large vehicles as illegal and only allow people to have a car if they need it for long-distance travel. Mandate use of LP powered buses for all cities and turn parking lots into parks to help lower atmospheric CO2. End the use of plastics which use fossil fuels. Ban coal fed power plants and mandate solar systems (which are only 20%-40% max efficient) or wind farms (also inefficient)....except the environmentalists probably won't like the amount of space needed.

Hmmm. Be much easier for a pandemic to kill the majority of the human infestation to save Mother Earth.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Just have Obama mandate 80mpg or some such number?

Exactly. That's how random CAFE is. The feds throw out a number and everyone scrambles to comply. I say again: the laws of physics do not bend to legislation.

[audtatious]

It's weird but while we are moving towards more "environmentally friendly" legislation like Cap & Trade, European countries are moving away from their failed legislation as it didn't work and only made select people rich.

[ReDsT@R DRiFt@R]

MPG's mean nothing when almost everyone drives over the speed limit. Every 10mph's over I think 60mph's is like a 10% increase in fuel useage. And that's if the car isn't having issues with fuel, spark or other driveability related systems. s*** lower air pressure in tires effects MPG's. It all a bunch of BS if you ask me. New cars also eliminate "shade tree" or DYI mechanics ability to fix cars with speacilized tools.

[audtatious]

True....

Gov can mandate black boxes that will read road sensors to limit speed to the actual speed limit. Probably on someones agenda plate right now

[ReDsT@R DRiFt@R]

True....

Gov can mandate black boxes that will read road sensors to limit speed to the actual speed limit. Probably on someones agenda plate right now

I've heard their working on obd 3 in newer vehicles that maybe able to do just that. Also have gps locators and "On star" like services. f*** that I'll stay with my obd1 and wait till I do an aftermarket EMS to eliminate some of its down falls. At least with some you can disable your MIL from ever turning on, but of course wont tell you when other systems are failing just FYI

[aces805]

This cash for clunkers program is really just a fed bailout to drive foot traffic into the dealerships. A marketing budget. Fuel economy is not the real issue. In order to qualify, you must improve MPG by 2. What a joke. Also, to qualify you must buy ONLY a new car. What if someone wants to buy a 2008 Altima Hybrid? That would certainly improve MPG.

Also, the $3500 - $4500 cannot be used as a down-payment in the "front" of the car deal. The feds are not cutting checks to the public. It is a reimbursement that is applied at the end of the car deal so that the $$$ goes directly to the dealerships. The dealership simply marks down the sticker price of the new car, again at the END of the car deal.

The cash for clunkers incentive does not factor into the financing at all. Customers must still be approved for the original sticker price of the new car without the cash for clunkers incentive. So, if the new car costs $22500, the customer's credit app must be approved for $22500, not $18000 ($22500 minus $4500).

New cars depreciate 25% - 35% in the first year of ownership.

Oh well, enjoy what you got while you got it. I'm gonna go for a drive up the PCH to Santa Barbara tomorrow. Should be a nice ride.

[trajanH]

Funny that it seems everytime the idea of harnessing solar energy comes up someone is quick to say that it will not work.In the meantime the interior of my car is burning up everyday from the energy of the sun. It is like an oven in there and anytime you have that type of energy not being harnessed then it is being wasted. Turn your oven on at 250 degrees during the day without using it and tell me that you are not wasting energy. When you peak your head in that oven, that heat you feel is how hot my car is when I get in to start it up this summer.

The solar panel that I use now trickle charges my battery when the car is usually just sitting and draining energy. I don't lose any energy now because of the solar panel that I use. The panel does not add any more significant weight to the car.

[MinisterofDOOM]

The fact that energy is present does not make it magically possible to harness it efficiently. THAT is the issue with EVERY form of power. Also thermal != photo. Heat and light both come from the sun. Heat and light do not both power photovoltaics.

I don't really see how trickle charging your battery is helping the environment or doing anything other than being kind of neat. In order for photovoltaics to make an environmental impact, they need to become cheaper, easier to manufacture, and more efficient.

Solar power is really inefficient right now in all it's forms, be it photovoltaics or reflective-focused boilers or whatever. It requires a lot of real-estate (for photocells or mirrors or etc.) and isn't cheap or easy to do. You can't really operate much off of solar power on the scale we're talking about (can fit on a car). Look at solar flashlights and radios. They're terrible. You get better luck with kinetic generators like the kind you shake or crank.

[Victor]

An option on the Audi A8 has a solar powered fan that airs out the car, keeping the temperature down when parked in the sun.

[ReDsT@R DRiFt@R]

The thing bout using solar power for electricity is that it uses more water to cool down the whole solar power harnessing systems. There saying that the USA is already using way to much water a year that it will soon run out.