Car enthusiasts - Mobilize!!! [UPDATED]

[AZhitman]

URGENT REGULATORY ALERT - EPA Threatens to Raise Ethanol Content in Gasoline

Under pressure from ethanol producers to raise the ethanol content in gasoline, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) could issue a decision later this month allowing the use of E15 in late-model cars. It could permit the use in other cars at a later date. The SEMA Action Network (SAN) opposes the shift from E10 to E15 due to concerns that the additional content will harm automobiles of all ages, including special interest collector and historic vehicles. To date, there is a lack of conclusive information regarding E15’s effect on engines of different model years. In addition to the potential harm of E15 on engine components, the EPA has no procedure in place to ensure misfueling does not occur or any plan for ensuring regular gasoline continues to be available for older vehicles. The SAN’s concerns are shared by a number of other industry organizations.

We urge you to ask President Obama (contact information below) to stop the EPA from raising the Ethanol content in gasoline...

Here's a convenient copy / paste. PLEASE, get involved!

Dear Mr. President:

As an auto enthusiast and a member of NICOclub.com, I strongly urge you to stop the Environmental Protection Agency from raising the amount of ethanol in gasoline from today’s 10 percent (E10) to 15 percent (E15) – a 50 percent increase.

The EPA is under pressure from some corporate ethanol supporters to raise the rates in order to boost sales. However, scientific studies have not yet been completed on concerns that the added content could harm auto parts of all ages.
When ethanol levels are raised, engines react differently and in a potentially dangerous way. Ethanol causes engines to burn hotter which could lead to premature engine and equipment failure. For newer cars, the “check engine” light may appear unnecessarily or too late to avoid costly repairs.

Ethanol also increases water formation in the fuel system, especially when the vehicle sits over a period of time. Under these conditions, formic acid is created which corrodes metals, plastics and rubber. This can lead to engine/parts failures and, potentially, safety hazards.

If the EPA approves E15, it will state that the increased ethanol is only for recent model cars. However, once a new fuel mix enters the gasoline supply system, it will inevitably end up in the wrong engines.

Gasoline without any ethanol may simply disappear from the marketplace for millions of Americans with older cars or special interest collector and historic vehicles. E10 has already made this a reality in many areas of the country.
The EPA should wait until all of the scientific research is complete. There is no need for a rush to judgment.


DON’T DELAY! Please contact President Obama at http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact

Please e-mail a copy of your letter to Steve McDonald at [email protected]. Thank you for your assistance.

[AZhitman]

More info:

FROM http://www.hyundai.com.au/FAQ/default.aspx#ethanol :

...vehicles equipped with carburettor fuel supply systems should not be run on Ethanol blended fuel of any ratio. This is due to both the incompatibility of the fuel lines with the moisture holding characteristics of Ethanol, and to the negative effect on vehicle performance due to the variation of vapour pressures between petrol and Ethanol.

Ethanol is hygroscopic, (attracts and holds moisture) and can therefore accelerate corrosion. The use of E10 (Ethanol blended fuel) may result in negative effects to cold starting, as well as engine drive-ability (‘smoothness') at light to medium engine load conditions. It will also result in reduced fuel economy.

he use of Ethanol at E10 will not affect warranty simply by its use. However, failure caused by Ethanol such as corrosion of fuel injection due to Ethanol's' hygroscopic nature (attracts and holds moisture) will not be covered by warranty.

Another good article:

http://harvardmagazine.com/2006/11/the- ... usion.html

[Razi]

Fudging with my gas?!


I'll write out a letter tomorrow when my brain is working.
Thanks Greg.

[krimsonviper]

I have submitted the pre-written email, to the link provided. I would like to not have more problems with a wankel engine when I finally purchase my FD3S.

Thanks Greg!

[krimsonviper]

DOUBLE POST FTW!

I've also posted a link to this on bookFace.

[IBCoupe]

The EPA's been skeptical of it before:

Rejecting industry and agricultural interests' arguments, [the EPA] said its rules _ which will take months to develop _ will take into account increased greenhouse gas emissions as more people plant ethanol crops at the expense of forests and other vegetation and land use is influenced worldwide by the demand for biofuels.

[Jesda]

[PoorManQ45]

Message sent.

I just had to drain the water out of my carb bowls. Yet the engine is used constantly!!!

Oh, some of you guys are lucky enough to even have the option of non-ethanol gas. I haven't seen that anywhere around the tampa area.

*edit* shared on facebook.

This picture is the default:

[hbpignosePA]

what really pisses me off is how much gas is; and its not even straight gasoline anymore... so many additives

thankfully there are two stations in my town that advertise they do not use ethanol. i try to make it to those spots before the chains. it might be a few cents more, but they are small independant establishments

[elwesso]

Honestly, dont you think what Greg posted is exactly what they want to happen? Costly repairs, engines failing and so forth, means people have to buy new cars and get all these old "polluting gas guzzlers" off the road...

[Chaotic_Warlord]

Just playing Devils Advocate on this, so don't flame me as I totally agree with what Greg is trying to do here and don't think we needed ethenol in our gas to begin with, but I can't help but wonder if this is thing that happened when they took the lead of gas. What I mean to say to is at the time leaded gas was the standard, then they found out it wasn't good for people and the environment so they took the lead out (hence unleaded gas) and there was a huge uproar because everyone thought it would kill their cars. It didn't and in fact cars actually ran better, and with the lead additive being sold for the older cars to use the uproar faded. Having said that is there a way to possible buy an additive that could neutralize the Ethanol content/effect? Yeah you'd have to use it every fill up which would be a pain and a higher expense but you wouldn't have to deal with the ethanol.

I'm going to share this on Facebook and hope that these damned corn growers stay out of the business of cars and fuel.

[IBCoupe]

I mentally drew parallels there, too, but ethanol isn't being offered for health reasons, as far as I know.

[Encryptshun]

I plan to do research on this during the course of today, but to start with, how is this a mandate? All I see is a proposed removal of a restriction, with the petrol companies then free to sell it if it's demanded by the consuming public. Isn't that a good thing? Let people who want E15 be able to get it at a local gas station -- the auto companies can still issue a statement saying that its use will void warranty, etc etc. If consumers are educated on any proven harmful effects on cars, E15 will not see the traction that the corn farmer's lobby wants it to have.

Again, that is my initial reaction, but I'd appreciate some clarity if it's out there.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Honestly, dont you think what Greg posted is exactly what they want to happen? Costly repairs, engines failing and so forth, means people have to buy new cars and get all these old "polluting gas guzzlers" off the road...

Agreed. This is a discussion we've had in the Q forum a few times.

But then again I own a thoroughly modern "gas guzzler" and am still opposed. I want a CHOICE as a consumer, dammitall. If you want to offer E10, E15, etc. that's great. But I should still have the ability to choose gasoline with less than 5% ethanol if I want. Mandating only one of those is not acceptable. ANY one of those. Even <5%.

And all that aside, since when is it the federal government's job to regulate fuel constituents?

[tigersharkdude]

my max runs like straight trash with this 10% ethanol garbage. If this gets passed will my car even run?

[Oatmealman]

my max runs like straight trash with this 10% ethanol garbage. If this gets passed will my car even run?

Who knows,my 350 jeep runs like s*** when i put anything other than 91,or race gas.It's ridiculous.I can get away with 89 if i retard the s*** outta the timing but then i loose power.I need real gas here a$$ not some ethanol s*** that I've gotta change all my fuel system for.

[IBCoupe]

And all that aside, since when is it the federal government's job to regulate fuel constituents?

Since Congress passed the Clean Air Act in 1970, amended it in 1977, and again in 1990, MoD.

[the converted]

Sent. It's freaking ridiculous that they are trying to mandate more ethanol. There's a global food shortage, and we have already seen the price jump in grain based products since they went down this path. Messing with my gas and my BEER?

[Encryptshun]

A bit of historical information for those who want to read it:

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/energy/biofuels/ ... and-policy

[scotty-2-forty]

Done! ... Thanks Greg.

[elwesso]

Sent. It's freaking ridiculous that they are trying to mandate more ethanol. There's a global food shortage, and we have already seen the price jump in grain based products since they went down this path. Messing with my gas and my BEER?

I can live with the gas, but NOT THE BEER..

[the converted]

Here is an interesting article about the energy yield (or loss in this case) from using corn as well as other ethanol sources. I'm still amazed that even though this is commonly known to the well informed, the prius crown and the corn industry either don't care to know, or actively try to hide this information.

Some day people may want to actually care about things from start to finish, instead of just what comes out of their tail pipe.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 231841.htm

[Encryptshun]

Converted, what is the energy output vs input of refined petroleum?

[IBCoupe]

And another thing: Sugar cane ethanol is much more effective source (and, I believe, results in fewer overall emissions, in burning and processing, but I could be wrong), but the people who want corn ethanol are Americans. The people who want sugar cane ethanol are Brazilians. So guess which one wins in Congress?

[the converted]

According to that article, a LOSS of 29%. Most of the more in depth studies involve the energy used for planting, watering, harvesting, and refining. Including those numbers obviously will give you a much more accurate picture of what is really going on. The studies that industry would like you to look at, typically neglect everything prior to refining to paint a greener picture.

If anyone is interested in picking up a book and reading more about energy and the green movement, two good books that I have read are "Power Hungry" by Robert Bryce, and "Green Gone Wrong" by Heather Rogers. Power Hungry looks specifically at energy use, while Green Gone Wrong takes a much broader look at the green movement in general. Both authors certainly have their agendas, but overall, good informative reads.

[the converted]

And another thing: Sugar cane ethanol is much more effective source (and, I believe, results in fewer overall emissions, in burning and processing, but I could be wrong), but the people who want corn ethanol are Americans. The people who want sugar cane ethanol are Brazilians. So guess which one wins in Congress?

The biggest hurdle to growing cane based ethanol is our climate. I would like to naively think that if we could grow it here, we would.

[IBCoupe]

I wonder if the cries for ethanol would be nearly as high if we cut off the subsidies for Corn and Soy farmers (a great short-term idea by Nixon, as they worked as intended: the price of food stabilized) and let those industries shrivle and die naturally.

[Speedy7_7]

Sent! The thing the general public will never get is that these subsidies do not help the salt of the earth, mom and pop farmers. They only help massive corporations with more money than god, and no personal accountability.

[PoorManQ45]

Someone that posted on my facebook in response to this brought up a good point:

Ethanol has a higher octane rating then gas. What would happen if you were to increase the compression ratio to take advantage of this?

[the converted]

The flex fuel vehicles have tried to take advantage of this by increasing the timing advance, but you're still going to be at a loss because there is less energy content in the fuel. There are a few really high power tuned cars out there that use e85 specifically because of the higher octane.