Car enthusiasts - Mobilize!!! [UPDATED]

[audtatious]

http://www.agmrc.org/renewable_energy/e ... dustry.cfm

"The Energy Independence and Security Act signed into law in December 2007 requires that specific minimum volumes of domestic ethanol and biodiesel to be blended into motor fuel supplies. The legislation includes a detailed enforcement mechanism to insure that these quantities are met. For conventional (mostly corn-based) ethanol, the mandate gradually increases the required quantity each year until it reaches 15 billion gallons by 2015. At the current industry average ethanol yield per bushel of corn, the mandate would require about 5.36 billion bushels of corn to be processed into ethanol – if the entire ethanol quantity is filled from domestic production. That volume of corn would be slightly larger than the October 10 USDA projection of domestic corn feed and residual use for the current marketing year.

The 15 million gallon mandate would require about 5.36 billion bushels of corn to be process into ethanol. This is equivalent to 44 percent of the 2008 corn crop."

So, I guess the Gov needs to mandate more farmland be used for corn. I guess we won't be sending as much free corn overseas to help starving communities. I guess the price of food which used corn or soy will be going up up up. I guess the price of livestock will go up up up as they rely on corn as a food source.

Thanks Bush....and Obama for continuing this lunacy.

[IBCoupe]

If we cut corn subsidies, this'd go away.

[audtatious]

I'm fine with cutting corn subsidies. Probably the only ones who oppose it are the "corporate farmers" with paid politicians.

[sx moneypit]

This was the first thing i saw in the paper today,total bullsh*t!!!

[Solar_Runner]

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NM

locations of non-corn-gas.

[sx moneypit]

Thank you for the info!

[AZhitman]

URGENT REGULATORY ALERT (UPDATE)

EPA Denies E15 Waiver for Pre-2001 Cars, Permits Use in Newer Cars

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency confirmed that there is insufficient test data to permit E15 to be used in MY 2000 and older light-duty motor vehicles. The SEMA Action Network (SAN) has consistently voiced concern that ethanol increases water formation which can then create formic acid and corrode metals, plastics and rubber. While the SAN is pleased with the decision that older cars should not be fueled with E15, the association is disappointed that the EPA issued an E15 waiver for 2007 and newer vehicles. The agency is still gathering data for the 2001-2006 vehicles. The EPA’s ruling responds to a request from the ethanol industry to raise the ethanol content in gasoline from 10 percent (E10) to 15 percent (E15).

Consumers will not see E15 at the pump any time soon. The EPA must first approve regulations on how gas stations will label their pumps to avoid consumer misfueling. This will take months. Furthermore, there is no obligation that gasoline retailers market the fuel. In fact, some retailers oppose the fuel over concern that they could be held liable if E15 damages a vehicle. The gas stations and distributors may also need to invest in new storage tanks, hoses and other equipment.

The SAN will continue to oppose E15 until there are conclusive scientific findings that demonstrate that it will not harm automobiles of any age as a result of corrosion or other chemical incompatibilities. SEMA represents thousands of companies that market products for these vehicles and, through its SEMA Action Network, millions of enthusiasts who buy and operate these automobiles. Questions/comments may be directed to Steve McDonald at [email protected].

[IBCoupe]

This does seem like a decent compromise. If the EPA's doing enough testing to determine that cars from MY2001 and older can't handle the extra content, I'm confident in their determination that MY2007+ cars can. Their decision to allow but not to mandate the stuff, too, seems like a good compromise. Gets the ethanol lobbyists off the back of government without giving into them, and makes them go after their market counterparts - the gas distributors.

[snwbrdr435]

I can't even find any regular non ethanol gas anywhere. There was one station up in vt that had it.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

At least we get to choose what crappy gas goes into our tank.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

UPDATE: Ethanol also causes engines to burn hotter which could lead to premature engine and equipment failure.

...that's not true at all. In fact it is quite the opposite.

[PEZi]

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NM

locations of non-corn-gas.

of course... nothing anywhere near where i fill up... and even so hardly ANY 91 to be had....

[Philipio]

My girlfriend works for the University Star, Texas State's newspaper (the college). I suggested she write an article about E15 to spread the word and it was published today.

Gearheads warn caution when using E15 alternative fuel
Nov 30 2010 - 1:24am | Maria Gross

The prospect of changing the allowed concentration of ethanol in unleaded gasoline from 10 percent to 15 percent in gas pumps is fueling controversy around the country and at Texas State.

Ethanol supporter Growth Energy’s request to allow the sale of E15 was partially passed by the Environmental Protection Agency with the condition that it is only recommended for vehicles 2007 and older.

The new standards have sprouted concern over the downsides to ethanol additives. Members of Texas State Gearheads, a car enthusiast organization, say a higher ethanol concentration would be bad.

“Currently, ethanol is bad for our cars,” said Justin Mesuria, Gearheads president. “They’ll tell you it (the car) runs perfectly fine, but I can tell you from firsthand experience, that it’ll run but not how it used to.”

Thomas Hardy, research professor with Texas State’s River Systems Institute, said a loss of anywhere between 3 to 15 percent of mileage and damage to older motors are effects of increased ethanol use. He said economical and environmental implications of ethanol have the ability to affect the entire country.

He said corn will become more expensive, and the prices for meat from the animals that feed off it will rise. Water disputes could also increase, he said.

“Here in Texas, we are struggling with having enough water for our municipal people needs,” said Hardy, sponsor of the Gearheads. “If we try and wrap up additional agricultural production that is going to be competition with our municipal supplies.”

However, Gearheads members said there are benefits to increased ethanol use.

According to Growth Energy’s website, the positive aspects of ethanol are cleaner emissions, reducing dependence on oil imports and the creation of more than 136,000 jobs.

“At least they are trying to make an effort to get away from fossil fuels,” said Eric Gurule, vice president for the Gearheads.

Gearheads members said they are concerned about the future of vintage cars, which were never designed for use with ethanol.

The closest gas station to San Marcos that sells gasoline with no ethanol additives is an estimated hour and a half way in Horseshoe Bay, according to Pure-gas.org. The website lists all gas stations within the United States and Canada that sell ethanol-free gasoline.

“My major concern is that with the test of time muscle cars are going to literally become extinct,” said Patrick McKinney, political science freshman and Gearheads member. “You’re going to have to see them in a museum.”

Motorcycles and transit buses such as the Bobcat Tram may not use E15 according to the EPA. Testing is currently being done by the EPA on models of vehicles to see how running on ethanol effects the engine.

http://star.txstate.edu/content/gearhea ... ative-fuel

[AZhitman]

UPDATE: Ethanol also causes engines to burn hotter which could lead to premature engine and equipment failure.

...that's not true at all. In fact it is quite the opposite.

Mmmmm, sorta. Ethanol DOES burn hotter than gasoline - approximately 24,400 BTU versus 19,000 BTU, respectively.

However, the origin of THIS particular misconception is due to lean-burn conditions being experienced in cars NOT tuned for ethanol - which WILL run hotter due to that lean condition.

Some good info - And some jibber-jabber from unfounded sources. http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php?topic=4115.0

The problem is this: There's SO much BS propaganda surrounding E85, it's hard to know what's accurate. Here's an example - count the inaccuracies: http://www.mye85kit.com/index-8.html

[elwesso]

Greg, sorry but that unit of measurement doesnt make any sense. BTU is a measure of energy (equivalent to 778.17 ft lbs), equivalent to a Joule in the SI system. Its essentially the same as a ft-lb or N-m, same idea anyway.

So according to what your saying is that ethanol contains more energy than gasoline, which we of course know is incorrect. If you are looking for a burn temperature, you would need to look into some information on the combustion (adiabatic flame temperature), and mainly the higher and lower heating value.

In theory, if a substance contains MORE energy than another substance, that substance will burn HOTTER. In fact, outside of the octane rating, I thought many boost guys like running E85 because it burns cooler.. I would attribute to this because ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it retains moisture.. This effectively is like a water/alcohol spray which cools combustion temperature..

[Rev_D21]

A marina up the street from me is listed as selling non-ethanol fuel. Should I be weary about buying gas for my truck from a marina?

[elwesso]

A marina up the street from me is listed as selling non-ethanol fuel. Should I be weary about buying gas for my truck from a marina?

My family is in the marine business, and you would be AMAZED the effects that even E10 does to boats.. It will eat fuel lines from the inside out, ruin gas tanks, corrode carbs, and all kinds of nasty stuff. I dont imagine E10 has that big of an effect on automobiles because its not as easy for moisture to get into fuel systems as it is in the marine applications, which is a huge problem.

Prior to E10 in a boat, if you got water in the gas, you would just suck all the water out of the gas (which settles to the bottom) and you would be good to go, but since ethanol absorbs water it does a lot of damage.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

My girlfriend works for the University Star, Texas State's newspaper (the college). I suggested she write an article about E15 to spread the word and it was published today.

passed by the Environmental Protection Agency with the condition that it is only recommended for vehicles 2007 and older.

http://star.txstate.edu/content/gearhea ... ative-fuel

I was under the assumption that it was only recommended for vehicles 2007 and NEWER

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Greg, sorry but that unit of measurement doesnt make any sense. BTU is a measure of energy (equivalent to 778.17 ft lbs), equivalent to a Joule in the SI system. Its essentially the same as a ft-lb or N-m, same idea anyway.

So according to what your saying is that ethanol contains more energy than gasoline, which we of course know is incorrect. If you are looking for a burn temperature, you would need to look into some information on the combustion (adiabatic flame temperature), and mainly the higher and lower heating value.

In theory, if a substance contains MORE energy than another substance, that substance will burn HOTTER. In fact, outside of the octane rating, I thought many boost guys like running E85 because it burns cooler.. I would attribute to this because ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it retains moisture.. This effectively is like a water/alcohol spray which cools combustion temperature..

+1
Seeing as how Ethanol requires less air to achieve a stoich ratio, you WOULD get a leaner condition if you just added it without changing anything, but typically the O2 sensor accommodates for it (within reason anyway). I could see how it may burn hotter in a carbureted application, but would think that the ethanol burning cooler would compensate for the leanness.

More ethanol would really suck for people that have short trips to work and/or do many short trips... seeing as how it would take longer for the vehicle to warm up and therefore be out of its optimal efficiency range.

[f1seb]

Man I just can't believe this crap, Nascar selling out, bunch of scum.

http://www.nascar.com/news/101202/ameri ... index.html

[the converted]

It's NASCAR, they sold out years ago.

[Ace2cool]

NASCAR went wayyyy downhill when Dale Earnhardt Sr. died. After that, it's just never been the same.

[AZhitman]

Update:

SAN Opposes EPA Expansion of E15 Waiver to MY 2001 and Newer Cars

Several weeks ago, the SEMA Action Network (SAN) requested that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) suspend its partial waiver to permit the sale of gasoline containing 15 percent ethanol (E15) for model year 2007 and newer vehicles. Instead, the EPA has taken another step in the wrong direction by expanding the waiver to include MY 2001-2006 vehicles. The decision conflicts with President Obama’s Executive Order from earlier this week that requires government agencies to balance social and economic costs.

The EPA agrees with SAN that older cars (pre-MY 2001) should not be fueled with E15. The EPA reached its decision based over concern that ethanol’s corrosive qualities could harm the vehicle’s engine and other metal, plastic and rubber components. The EPA has proposed that a warning label be posted on the gas pump to prevent misfueling. SAN opposes this solution as incomplete given the significant threat of damage that could arise from misfueling. Even for newer vehicles, the label will cause confusion since most owner’s manuals instruct the motorist not to use ethanol blends higher than E10 and warranty coverage may be denied for damage caused by misfueling.

SAN will continue to oppose E15 until there are conclusive scientific findings that demonstrate that it will not harm automobiles of any age as a result of corrosion or other chemical incompatibilities.

[Ace2cool]

It'll eat my pintle-less injectors alive, time after time. Been proven by nearly every Z32 owner ever to drive their car on anything other than race gas.

Good to see there IS a major opposition to the act, however. That AND it's actually making a difference. However small of a difference it may be.....

[szh]

my max runs like straight trash with this 10% ethanol garbage. If this gets passed will my car even run?

Sorry to hear this.

You might try a bottle of ISOHEET with every tankful of gas for a while to see if it helps. It should help with the issues associated with the water that the ethanol in the gasoline takes in.

FWIW, I have discovered that I get less problems with ISOHEET every other tankful with winter gasoline ("oxygenated fuel"?) here in California. I am not totally sure why - I just see it helping my engine ... with less hesitation and what seems like smoother running.

BTW, remember to use ISOHEET (isopropyl alcohol based), not plain HEET (methanol based).

Z

[audtatious]

Since isopropyl alcohol can evap water I wonder it it changes something?

"back in the day" I used to pour a bottle of 70% isopropyl rubbing alcohol into my fuel tank to dry up water in the tank.