Car and Driver sucks
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BB Turbo
- Posts: 2478
- Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 12:12 pm
- Car: 2007 Nissan Titan KC
1992 Nissan 240SX Coupe
Hey Initial, you are very correct about all of those cars, being, my brother used to own a Probe GT, little mods though, it was a very reliable car and very rarely had any problems, until one rainy day a Lexus rammed us in the back and we skidded off into a ditch. My brother does own a Talon AWD, and you are very correct on the information about the 5 speeds being really screwed. He has spent about 1.5K on just repairing it, but has very few mods and he is currently working on his 240. Thanks for sharing that info though.
Wow. Props to Initial on a great and factually correct post!
I owned a '93 Probe GT for 2 years and I will attest to the fact that they are great cars with a ton of potential. If mine had been a 5-speed (or if I would have realistically had the time/money to swap out the atx), I'd have kept it, no questions. FWD isn't as great as RWD but the handling on those cars is so outstanding anyway. Probes/MX-6s have their quirks but the upside to that is that the problems are so predictable at certain mileage that they're really not a big deal. Mine never left me stranded.
My fiance has a '92 Eagle Talon, non-turbo unfortunately but that car is still a kick in the *ss to drive. It's so tight and nimble it can confidently be thrown around as a 240sx can, FWD and all. Less hp stock for stock than my 240 but it feels a lot more powerful, to be honest (he does have intake/header). I would take an AWD TSI with absolutely no hesitation. Reliability isn't 100% flawless, but hey, isn't that half the fun?
I also have a good amount of respect for Preludes and Integras. Both are decent looking, decent handling cars with an aftermarket that can't be compared to. And Honda reliability...can't beat that off with a stick.
Anyway, I'd still like to read the article for myself, but I do trust Car & Driver and have had a subscription to their magazine for a few years now. I seriously doubt their placements were as far off base as some of y'all are making them out to be.
I owned a '93 Probe GT for 2 years and I will attest to the fact that they are great cars with a ton of potential. If mine had been a 5-speed (or if I would have realistically had the time/money to swap out the atx), I'd have kept it, no questions. FWD isn't as great as RWD but the handling on those cars is so outstanding anyway. Probes/MX-6s have their quirks but the upside to that is that the problems are so predictable at certain mileage that they're really not a big deal. Mine never left me stranded.
My fiance has a '92 Eagle Talon, non-turbo unfortunately but that car is still a kick in the *ss to drive. It's so tight and nimble it can confidently be thrown around as a 240sx can, FWD and all. Less hp stock for stock than my 240 but it feels a lot more powerful, to be honest (he does have intake/header). I would take an AWD TSI with absolutely no hesitation. Reliability isn't 100% flawless, but hey, isn't that half the fun?
I also have a good amount of respect for Preludes and Integras. Both are decent looking, decent handling cars with an aftermarket that can't be compared to. And Honda reliability...can't beat that off with a stick.
Anyway, I'd still like to read the article for myself, but I do trust Car & Driver and have had a subscription to their magazine for a few years now. I seriously doubt their placements were as far off base as some of y'all are making them out to be.
InitialDGuy wrote:The 1G cars of course had the notorious crank walk problem.
Actually, that was the 2G cars.
Quote »The fact that the Japanese S14 had a turbocharged 2.0L is irrelevent in this comparison. They were comparing NEW cars as they were availible from the dealer. We can go all day and all night about what car is better with which engine swap. [/quote]
Well, most of your arguement was irrelevent as well. Reliability was not a factor in the C&D comparison, yet it was the basis of your entire arguement.
Quote »The Probe/MX-6 twins have their problems, but are generally pretty reliable mechanically.[/quote]Oh man, I almost fell off my chair when I read this one. I used to own a 96 probe GT and had many friends that had probe GT's as well...this was the most unreliable car I have ever owned! I got to know the AAA phone operators on a first name basis b/c of the # of times I got stranded from that car. I sold it b/c it almost got me killed one night! All my friends had problems too.
Quote »A newer Prelude SH would flat out destroy any stock or mildly modified S13 or S14 240SX with similar mods on a road course (I have had it happen to me)[/quote]That's funny because I've yet to see this happen. I've actually seen the exact opposite. It doesn't really matter either way though b/c driver skill has WAAAY too much to do with the out come of track events. When my friend's near stock WRX is beating Z06's, E36 M3's, E46 M3's, 944 turbo s's, and NSX's at track events, I don't run around screaming how much better of a perfomer a WRX is than a NSX.
FWIW, i'd take a 240 over a prelude (especially a newer one) for road courses any day of the week. Light weight and RWD is a good thing.
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InitialDGuy
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 2:37 pm
Originally posted by Dori Dori "]
Well, most of your arguement was irrelevent as well. Reliability was not a factor in the C&D comparison, yet it was the basis of your entire arguement.
Actually, if you would read the post again, You would see that the entire reliablity issue was based upon other people making blanket generalizations that every other car in that test was a "POS". The last 3 or so paragraphs delt directly with the comparison test itself. Everyone else is complaining about the S14 having to compete against AWD Turbo cars. The test was based on new cars that were availible in U.S. Dealerships, to U.S. based consumers. Several people stated that they should have tested a car with a SR20DET swap, or if they changed the rims, or tires, or whatever, the outcome would have been different. Well no kidding the outcome would be different. When compared to the other cars in the test, in 1995, when they were all new, the 240SX had some major shortcomings in comparison to the other cars. The C & D staff had to use what Nissan Corporate gave them and the U.S. public. If you have a problem with where the 240SX finished, blame Nissan.
Oh man, I almost fell off my chair when I read this one. I used to own a 96 probe GT and had many friends that had probe GT's as well...this was the most unreliable car I have ever owned! I got to know the AAA phone operators on a first name basis b/c of the # of times I got stranded from that car. I sold it b/c it almost got me killed one night! All my friends had problems too.
Ok,
Using this logic, I can say that all 3rd generation Maxima's are POS because I had one that was nothing but trouble. It had constant electrical problems, bad fuel injectors, a poorly engineered VTC system that advanced timing as RPMs increased yet never worked right, or I could go on and on about the terrible window regulators that I replaced over and over again.
But I won't do that, because that was just my personal experience. It was most likely an aberration. 3rd generation Maximas are indeed generally reliable. As I stated before, painting a bad personal experience with a certain car with a giant all encompassing brush is not good policy. I work at a import repair shop 40 hours a week (Mainly at night and the weekends, as I am also a full time student), so I see a broad spectrum of cars. Eventually you get to know what breaks on what cars at what intervals. I see a fair number of Probes and MX-6s's, with various problems. The automatic transmissions have problems (But then again, so do virtually every other FWD import car with a auto transmission, over time), and the interiors are certainly not the best in the industry. The various switches and controls (Particularily the climate controls) also are prone to failure. The distrubutors can and will fail over time. I also see a bunch of Mazda 626's in for routine maintenice. I have a customer who owns a 95 626 4 cylinder 5 speed with over 250,000 miles on it. A 626 is generally regaurded as a decent and reliable sub-compact import sedan. The strange thing about this notion is that the Probe and MX-6 are essencially 2 door Mazda 626's. The engines (4 or 6 cylinder) are very very stout. But I guess seeings as how your car was "the most unreliable car you ever owned", that would, by default, make every Probe unreliable.
Ok then...
That's funny because I've yet to see this happen. I've actually seen the exact opposite. It doesn't really matter either way though b/c driver skill has WAAAY too much to do with the out come of track events. When my friend's near stock WRX is beating Z06's, E36 M3's, E46 M3's, 944 turbo s's, and NSX's at track events, I don't run around screaming how much better of a perfomer a WRX is than a NSX. FWIW, i'd take a 240 over a prelude (especially a newer one) for road courses any day of the week. Light weight and RWD is a good thing.
I have seen it on several occasions. You state that it doesn't make any difference in the long run as driver skill determines the outcome. While driver skill certainly plays an important factor in how a car will perform, the platform in question can and often times will make a mediocre driver seem much better than he or she actually is. The Prelude SH is one of these cars. I will raise your driver skill arguement and state that, given equal driver skill, a stock Prelude SH will best a stock S14 on any track. Of course the opposite also holds true, as a very good driver can make a otherwise pedestrian car seem to be much faster than it actually is. Your friend's WRX is of course an example of the later. You stated that you don't go around saying that your friends WRX is a better car than a NSX. Well, I would hope not. The NSX is obviously a better performance car as far as non-rally events are concerned. I think most people would agree with this. You compared an car that was inferior (In this case, the WRX) to a superior car (the NSX). I compared a Prelude SH to a S14 240SX. The numbers do not lie, the SH is a better all around car STOCK than a S14 240SX is, STOCK.
I would agree with you that a light, RWD car is preferable, but there are plenty of fast FWD cars as well. Heck, there are 17 year old CRX Si's that are still blazingly fast on autocross courses. While a S14 240SX SE is lighter (allthough not by much) than a 5th gen Prelude SH; the Prelude has 45 more H.P., better gearing, better brakes, and better handling, again stock, than a 240SX SE.
You are correct, however, on the 2G DSM's having the Crankwalk problem, and I do stand corrected.
Cheers,Adam
Well, most of your arguement was irrelevent as well. Reliability was not a factor in the C&D comparison, yet it was the basis of your entire arguement.
Actually, if you would read the post again, You would see that the entire reliablity issue was based upon other people making blanket generalizations that every other car in that test was a "POS". The last 3 or so paragraphs delt directly with the comparison test itself. Everyone else is complaining about the S14 having to compete against AWD Turbo cars. The test was based on new cars that were availible in U.S. Dealerships, to U.S. based consumers. Several people stated that they should have tested a car with a SR20DET swap, or if they changed the rims, or tires, or whatever, the outcome would have been different. Well no kidding the outcome would be different. When compared to the other cars in the test, in 1995, when they were all new, the 240SX had some major shortcomings in comparison to the other cars. The C & D staff had to use what Nissan Corporate gave them and the U.S. public. If you have a problem with where the 240SX finished, blame Nissan.
Oh man, I almost fell off my chair when I read this one. I used to own a 96 probe GT and had many friends that had probe GT's as well...this was the most unreliable car I have ever owned! I got to know the AAA phone operators on a first name basis b/c of the # of times I got stranded from that car. I sold it b/c it almost got me killed one night! All my friends had problems too.
Ok,
Using this logic, I can say that all 3rd generation Maxima's are POS because I had one that was nothing but trouble. It had constant electrical problems, bad fuel injectors, a poorly engineered VTC system that advanced timing as RPMs increased yet never worked right, or I could go on and on about the terrible window regulators that I replaced over and over again.
But I won't do that, because that was just my personal experience. It was most likely an aberration. 3rd generation Maximas are indeed generally reliable. As I stated before, painting a bad personal experience with a certain car with a giant all encompassing brush is not good policy. I work at a import repair shop 40 hours a week (Mainly at night and the weekends, as I am also a full time student), so I see a broad spectrum of cars. Eventually you get to know what breaks on what cars at what intervals. I see a fair number of Probes and MX-6s's, with various problems. The automatic transmissions have problems (But then again, so do virtually every other FWD import car with a auto transmission, over time), and the interiors are certainly not the best in the industry. The various switches and controls (Particularily the climate controls) also are prone to failure. The distrubutors can and will fail over time. I also see a bunch of Mazda 626's in for routine maintenice. I have a customer who owns a 95 626 4 cylinder 5 speed with over 250,000 miles on it. A 626 is generally regaurded as a decent and reliable sub-compact import sedan. The strange thing about this notion is that the Probe and MX-6 are essencially 2 door Mazda 626's. The engines (4 or 6 cylinder) are very very stout. But I guess seeings as how your car was "the most unreliable car you ever owned", that would, by default, make every Probe unreliable.
Ok then...
That's funny because I've yet to see this happen. I've actually seen the exact opposite. It doesn't really matter either way though b/c driver skill has WAAAY too much to do with the out come of track events. When my friend's near stock WRX is beating Z06's, E36 M3's, E46 M3's, 944 turbo s's, and NSX's at track events, I don't run around screaming how much better of a perfomer a WRX is than a NSX.
FWIW, i'd take a 240 over a prelude (especially a newer one) for road courses any day of the week. Light weight and RWD is a good thing. I have seen it on several occasions. You state that it doesn't make any difference in the long run as driver skill determines the outcome. While driver skill certainly plays an important factor in how a car will perform, the platform in question can and often times will make a mediocre driver seem much better than he or she actually is. The Prelude SH is one of these cars. I will raise your driver skill arguement and state that, given equal driver skill, a stock Prelude SH will best a stock S14 on any track. Of course the opposite also holds true, as a very good driver can make a otherwise pedestrian car seem to be much faster than it actually is. Your friend's WRX is of course an example of the later. You stated that you don't go around saying that your friends WRX is a better car than a NSX. Well, I would hope not. The NSX is obviously a better performance car as far as non-rally events are concerned. I think most people would agree with this. You compared an car that was inferior (In this case, the WRX) to a superior car (the NSX). I compared a Prelude SH to a S14 240SX. The numbers do not lie, the SH is a better all around car STOCK than a S14 240SX is, STOCK.
I would agree with you that a light, RWD car is preferable, but there are plenty of fast FWD cars as well. Heck, there are 17 year old CRX Si's that are still blazingly fast on autocross courses. While a S14 240SX SE is lighter (allthough not by much) than a 5th gen Prelude SH; the Prelude has 45 more H.P., better gearing, better brakes, and better handling, again stock, than a 240SX SE.
You are correct, however, on the 2G DSM's having the Crankwalk problem, and I do stand corrected.
Cheers,Adam