Cam swap, car not starting!

[RatedR]

I just got done redoing my cam swap, I'm trying the 248/248 setup for my 93. Problem is, like a retard, I forgot to set the pistons to TDC #1! I got done with the swap alright, but now the car wont start. I know its a timing thing, and I've done that once before, so I set it to TDC and the distributor to #1 but still no start. After a couple more tries, and about 45 mins, I got a hold of a timing light and got better results.....somewhat.

The car ALMOST starts, then it dies. And now, it seems like I either drained the battery or I killed my starter! When the wifey cranks her up, the engine doesnt even crank over and I hear the starter wind up once then die. I'm tired for the night, and I know its late. Thing is though, I need info for tomorrow. I'm gonna need help from the KA gurus, whoever that may be! Thanks all!

-R

[Nathan]

I guarantee your timing is still off The easiest way of fixing it I know of is to pull the valve cover, get cyl. 1 to TDC on a compression stroke (key here), and verify that the distributor is installed correctly visually (dot lines up with detent).

[RatedR]

how do I verify that cylinder #1 is on the compression stroke??? Do I reset the timing from there?

[DAEDALUS]

One way is to look at the cams if the valve cover is off. You set #1 TDC using the crank marks. You'll know if it's compression if all valves are closed on #1. It's exhaust if all valves are open on #1 (intake just opened and exhaust about to close).

[RatedR]

So do I just keep the cams in the position like JWT shows in the installs and set the crank pulley to the TDC mark and that's TDC #1?

[RatedR]

tried that, still didnt do it....I'm wondering if the 4 teeth method isnt working. I really think it should be though, its the only way the exhaust cam can sit and the cam gear only fits it that way...I also found a lot of motor oil on the spark plugs themselves, must have been from when I put oil on the lobes of the cams.....

[RatedR]

Just out of curiousity, how is the 4 teeth method supposed to look like? I'll have a diagram:

X _ _ X

OR

X _ _ _ X

X being the teeth on the cam gear....I think I have it the first way around.

[DAEDALUS]

Are you sure 4 teeth is right for your engine? How about X _ _ _ _ X? Just throwing that out there. You really need to find the marks on the chain and use them. Crank has to be aligned too, not just cams. Look at the relative lobe angles, do they look right? Stick a clean dowel in the spark plug hole and turn the engine by hand. See how the pistons move with the valves (and the distributor).

[RatedR]

Right now, the thing barely starts, struggles/stumbles when its on idle and heats up faster than stock (I mean burning hot engine bay in a couple of mins). I'm trying to reset the timing and everything, but I'm not really sure how to tune it that well.

When I set the crank pulley to the TDC mark and set the the distributor to cylinder #1, the timing is WAY OFF after I start it and look with the timing light (The first timing mark is almost the only timing mark you can see on the pulley - looking from the front). I'm really tryin to take my time here so if anyone can walk me through a good process of tuning the engine, that'd be good.....

DAEDALUS: I'm not sure about what you're describing, but I've only read about a 4 teeth retard/advance (plus the cam lobes wont really sit right with any more adjustment). Any idea on how to reset the whole timing? (By whole timing, I mean including the chain) I think I may have F*d up the whole thing cause it just misses alot now.

[DAEDALUS]

The possibility of not having the cams in the right place scares the heck out of me. Be certain you haven't bent any valves. The first mark (the one most clockwise on the pulley) is 20* BTDC, which is the stock setting for your car, so you are way advanced.What have you removed? Upper timing chain obviously. Lower timing chain? Have you loosened/rotated the distributor housing? If you've only played with the upper chain, you need to line up all the marks on the chain with those on the cam sprockets and idler sprocket. Get the cams in the right spot and then get the spark in the right spot. Hopefully the lower chain has not been adjusted on the crank/idler sprockets...if it has, you'll need to set that first. Do you have the manual? Section EM covers most of this. Less than 20 pages for what you're doing, but very important ones!This is a bit of a read, and the car is an '89, but it might help some:http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....14457

[RatedR]

I'm still confused, but I think I'm on the right track. Here's what I think I need to do:

1)find TDC for cylinder 12)find marks on upper timing chain3)seat cams correctly, making sure none of the valves are open and that the cam lobes on #1 are away from the piston4)find marks on the upper timing chain - - if i cant find this, i dont know what to do 5)set distributor to #16)put everything back and see if she starts

How do I know if I've moved the timing chain? I did a compression check and it seems okay. (165, 168, 170, 170)I really need to find out if the timing chain is matching up with everything else. I think that if I put the crank pulley to the TDC mark (the one with color, second to the last I think) and set the distributor to #1, it advances it after start up. The last timing mark is way up there towards the intake side more.

Thanks for all the help DaeDae!

-R

[DAEDALUS]

Sounds like a decent plan, however #1 is not the only piston at TDC so be careful. I think for your engine #4 will be at TDC as well, since it is on the top of the exhaust stroke when #1 is on compression. (2 & 3 will be at BDC) Look at the #1 cams/valves. Both intake (driver's side) and exhaust (passenger's side) should be closed. Look at #4 cams/valves. Intake should be just starting to crack open, and exhaust should be just about to close (8* overlap each way, barely noticeable). This is how you want to *rough* position the camshafts for #1 TDC. Be ready to stop if there are any interferences! If you haven't removed the lower chain or changed it's location on either the idler or the crank sprockets, then leave it alone and work on the upper chain only. If you can't find the marks on the chain (usually you can) then I would replace the chain. Make sure they're not on the back side of the chain! Your compression results are a good sign you're close, plus it runs.I think your car has a crank angle sensor to advance the spark. But the FSM is at home and I can't remember for certain.

[RatedR]

Hmmm, I was wondering if there's a way that the lower timing chain may have been moved... I'm not sure, but some of the instructions on the manual state that I have to lock the lower chain with a paper clip. I didnt do that the first time I swap the cams, and it ran. Its only this second time that I ran into this problem. Do you think that its possible that the lower chain has moved too?

[DAEDALUS]

Nistech can answer that with certainty, but I'm pretty sure it didn't jump if you didn't remove the tensioner or idler sprocket. What manual are you using that calls out locking anything with a paper clip???

[RatedR]

I'm using the chilton, how would I go about getting Nistech to answer this thread?

[DAEDALUS]

Yo, Nistech!

[RatedR]

Does that really work? Or should I get a HUGE flashlight and put a Nissan emblem and point it towards some clouds?

[NISTECH]

Does that really work? Or should I get a HUGE flashlight and put a Nissan emblem and point it towards some clouds?

LMAO

I think I would have to be outside to see it. Dont get out much at night any more.

If all you did was cams and did not remove the idler sprocket or the crank chain off the idler sprocket and you did not move it it was likley ok. now that you have attempted to start the car it has moved[not skipped teeth just moved from your original position] I think you are way advanced if your car is getting hot that fast. To get you piston at top dead center[which happnes twice for every one revolution of the cam shafts] remove the plug and rotate the engine till it is generally near the top of its travel. drop a long screw driver down into the cyl so it rests on the top of the piston. now manually turn the engine till the screw driver creasts watch it and find the center point when it reaches the point it wont rise any more. There will be a bit of movement of the crank once the screw driver stops rising. find the middle of that movement. stop it there and take a look at your crank pulley, is it at the top dead center mark ? if not you may have a spun harmonic balancer. Have personaly seen 3 in the last 2 months. This would mean the marks are in correct and the only real way to set up the chain on its proper marks would be to remove the front cover and set each chain mark on its appropriate mark on the timing sprockets.

[RatedR]

I dont believe that my crank marks are misaligned, but I do think that something else is causing the advancement. Could a misplaced Cam sprocket on the wrong link be the problem?Thanks Nistech and Dea!

-R

[RatedR]

I noticed that you guys said that the crank rotates twice for every single rotation of the cams. Would it be bad if I swapped the TDC#4 with TDC#1 by rotating the cams and the distributor??? I already did this and noticed that the car starts if I open the throttle.....

[NISTECH]

hmm how to explain this... #4 and #1 on the crank at tdc are the same. if you swaped the cams and distributor 180 degrees [TDC #4] and cranked the engine around one time you would be at tdc#1 again. then one more revolution would bring you to TDC#4 again. Its a vicious cycle but it happens on all 4 cyl engines:D

[DAEDALUS]

It's pretty confusing reading this whole thread. There is more than one way to skin a cat, I think some methods given are redundant. To rephrase what Nistech is saying...by rotating the cams and distributor 180*, you really haven't changed anything. When you rotate the crank another 360* (like when cranking), the engine will be right back where it was before you rotated the cams and distributor. That is, #1&4 will be at TDC again, and the cams/distributor will have rotated 180*, back to where they were too.The car runs now. That's only possible if you're really close to being right on. You still need to line up all marks on the upper chain to be 100%. Idler and cam sprockets with the 3 chain marks. If you still have running issues there may be other problems....fuel delivery, spark, etc. Keep that timing light handy.

[NISTECH]

here comes a dumb question but gotta ask, plug wires do not go on the cap in a circle 1 2 3 4 the go 1 3 4 2 . do you have them on that way?

[RatedR]

Nistech: Yeah, I have them on that way. I'm not too stupid when it comes to cars, but I'm just really having a hard time getting the timing on this thing. Now the car wont even start. Thats why I asked if it would matter if I rotated the cams. I really have to sit down and figure out what I have wrong. It seems like when I have everything opened up, and I crank it by hand, the whole thing is working. But when I crank it by the ignition key, everything just gets thrown around the wrong way (By the timing light's que). But when I stop, and I crank it to TDC #1 again, everything's still matched up. Is that a better visual? I'll try again tomorrow, this time I'll go under the car with the timing light to see just how far the marks are....

[RatedR]

Went under, the timing marks are actually closer to the oil pan....... LOL, I hope there's a chance

[RatedR]

There was an ad for one of those mobile mechanics and I called him up for an estimate. He said there could be a number of reasons why I'm not cranking over, but to check my timing chain on the cams. He asked if it binds and I said that it gets pretty tight when cranking it by hand. I'm wondering if the timing chain on the cams are supposed to be really TIGHT or if its more like this pic:



Right now, my chain doesnt have any slack on it.....

[NISTECH]

your ahhh chain tension is ummmm fine but is it not obvious to you you cams are way out of time there? see the grooves on your cam sprockets behind the bolts? the intake groove/notch should be about 9 oclock and the exhuast right now is correct. in this picture.

[NISTECH]

the yellow moarks on the chain are suppose to line up with the dots on the sprockets.

[DAEDALUS]

I don't think that's his engine...just a pic he found.

[DAEDALUS]

Chain slack/tension is pretty meaningless when the car isn't running. I mean, you could turn intake cam forward just a tad, and then you would have slack in the chain without changing the timing. There has to be slack somewhere in the chain...why they put a tensioner in there to take the slack out.

The timing logic starts at #1 piston. Everything is relative to #1. The crank turns, and (via a chain) rotates the idler. This relationship we're assuming hasn't changed since the lower chain wasn't touched. The idler turns and rotates the exhaust cam, which pulls the chain to rotate the intake cam. Line up the chain right on all 3 pairs of marks, and the valve timing will have to be correct. Then you have to get the distributor on right to get the spark timing correct.

If it's like other cars I've seen, the gold link lines up with the crank sprocket mark, and there are 2 silver links that line up with the cam sprocket marks.