Cam options for VH, discuss!

Post by **doctorchee** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:20 pm

the cams will be damm cool

just like to check, will it be for VH41 or VH45 ? or both engine cams are the same?

thanks

Post by **Mettler** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:14 pm

The ends of the camshafts are slightly different between the two engines, but are almost identical.

I will need to make separate VH41 & VH45 cams. I have a set of VH45 cams lying in my garage to measure up after I'm done doing mine.

As far as profiles go, there will be a couple of choices because the 41 & 45 have different bore/stroke ratios and will therefore require slight differences in their profiling.

Post by **gs14racer** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:33 am

I am anxiously awaiting the outcome, if you need any spare cams to measure, let me know. I have plenty laying around.

Although i would personally be interested in a cam that bypassed the VTC.

Post by **David Steele** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:06 am

ultrapulse wrote:As far as I know no fords over here in NZ came out with that 4.6 quadcam. The only ones that I know of have the 5.4 quadcam, which is in Fords XR8 Falcon. I guess we got the bigger one to compete with Holden's 5.7 Commodore. I have driven the holden and reckon its a bit (bordering on VERY) flat down low, however the xr8 has 90% of its torque from 2,000rpm upwards...and revs. However I havent driven one but have heard great things.

5.4 engine head that I know of is in the Ford Lightning (USA) .

Post by **FandGMotorsports** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:37 pm

.050 is a more realistic measurement for cam duration...it means the amount of duration ( measured in crankshaft degress) starting at 0.050 valve lift opening to .050 valve lift closing. advertised is usally measured at .006 valve lift. advertised numbers are decieveing. you can have a cam with alot of advertised duration that has a small .050 duration indicating a slow ramp rate. opening and closing ramps are rates are more important than duration and lift. thats why roller cams are good. you can have a much more agreesivve ramp profile top slam the valve open quick. if it opens quick it can spend more of the duration at or near maximum valve lift. a slow rate means the valve spends more time at low lift numbers.

Post by **Guishnu** » Fri May 25, 2007 11:53 pm

Would you be able to supply cam blanks that i could have machined myself here in the UK?

Or provide me with 256 deg cams for my turbo engine?

Post by **defrag010** » Sat May 26, 2007 7:56 am

Mettler.. i've been out of the vh scene for a while, but am starting back now that i have time to work on my project again...

It just hit me after i was looking at your modelings of a cam... If there was a place to get a solid billet of some chrome moly or something that was a little bigger than the diameter of the flange, and a little longer than the cam...it would be Very easy to chuck it up in the lathe at work and make a blank (just time consuming)... or bring it home to my mini lathe and chuck it up (even more time consuming)... All my VH stuff is in storage right now, what kind of oiling passages do the stock cams have?

Post by **Mettler** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:55 am

FandGMotorsports wrote:.050 is a more realistic measurement for cam duration... etc

Cheers man, I know now... btw duration at .050" is with regard to camlift, not valvelift.

defrag010 wrote:what kind of oiling passages do the stock cams have?

6mm through-hole that's blanked off to act as an oil gallery, and drilled into through the lobes & bearings.

BTW buying billets of roundbar is how I'm gonna be doing it... but at this point, I don't know whether I will be supplying blanks for anyone but myself or locals.

Main reason being that I can't be bothered with people bitching over this and that detail. The fact is, to run more lift, you gotta replace the valvesprings (people will start bitching about the price), and then if you want a really wild cam, you'd probably have to remove VTC.

With these factors in mind, I think it's going to be too much of a mission to get foreign customers to listen & do it right without ****ing it up and then spouting off negative crap about me on the internet.

I'll see how much work & cost goes into my set before I make the final verdict though.

Post by **defrag010** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:58 pm

ahh, i was just asking because I talked with a local cam grinding guy named Dana Baron here a while back about doing me a set of VH cams, and he was interested... but he said that blanks would make it much easier for him vs. regrinding the stock cams.

The head has oilers in the journal bosses, so the only real reason to need oil through a VH cam is for the VC, right?

Post by **Mettler** » Tue May 29, 2007 10:11 am

Nah man, it's to get oil coming out of the lobes themselves and onto the roller rocker.

Plus it may have more to it, like equalizing pressure along the cam or something, I don't know. I'm just gonna duplicate the factory design as closely as possible.

Post by **autoworkz** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:30 pm

Mettler wrote:With these factors in mind, I think it's going to be too much of a mission to get foreign customers to listen & do it right without ****ing it up and then spouting off negative crap about me on the internet.

I'll see how much work & cost goes into my set before I make the final verdict though.

ouch man, we need cams too!

Post by **Mettler** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:45 pm

Haha don't worry autoworkz, I'm not that far off prototyping my own set... still spending money and focusing my attention on other parts of my build, but crunch time is coming up and I'm gonna be needing my cams soon, so I'll prob be rushing into it when I'm ready. When I do, I'll work out how cost effective it's going to be (material, machining, grinding, valvesprings, retainers, shipping), and perhaps offer a drop-in package to you guys once I've proven them to work in my setup.

I still have to model the combustion chambers, valves, etc in 3d to determine clearances at various levels of timing, just to make sure the final profile is going to be compatible with VTC operation.

Post by **Mettler** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:34 pm

Ok starting to get serious now. My 'office' is set up with a cylinder head on my computer desk, crankshaft next to me, and various internal parts lying around. Armed with my vernier calipers, two FSMs, and information from NICO, I am now tackling the cam design head on.

I spent the whole weekend working on the cams design, and have started modeling up a VH41/VH45 dummy test rig (block, crank, rods, pistons etc) accurate down to the last detail (not so much in the block tho), so I can model up an accurate cylinder head and perform piston/valve clearance experiments with enhanced cam profiles, as well as experimenting with their effect when running in conjunction with the 20 degrees advance on the intake that VTC offers.

Providing I can model the cylinder head accurately enough (should be able to, I cross reference measurements relative to each other so they work out sweet), I'll be able to experiment with virtually every cam profile possible within the allowable clearance to factory pistons.

You may also note the values for the cam profile are presently based on the standard ones (apart from duration @ .050"), I just have to add some detail to the ramps so I can more accurately control these values and therefore the valve's lift.

Remember, I'm designing these for me first, for my jap spec VH41DE with dual row timing chains & smaller cam sprockets etc (using VH45DE internals though), but when I've finished it's only going to be a small matter to change the front face to make them VH45DE cams.

Watch this space!

Some pics for great justice:

You may be asking yourself 'what's a 25 year old doing sitting at home on a saturday night measuring car parts'... quite simply, I do it for the love of brutal acceleration. Thrashing a badass V8 at high speed is a feeling that is tiers and tiers above the generic act of getting boozed & partying, and this will all be worth it in the end.

Post by **autoworkz** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:24 pm

dude, props. very sweet that you can try out different lifts and duration. Something else you might want to keep in mind while you`re thinking valve train, the lifters "appear" to identical to sr20 lifters. keeping that in mind, the fwd sr20 croud use solid lifters to counteract the lifters not pumping up fully at high revs. (btw, friend of mine, reved his sr20det, stock bottom with his moddified head to 9600 rpm before a rod bolt came loose) he didn`t use the $600 a set HKS lifters, he used stock lifters and shimmed them internally to the correct height. I keep thinking about this and at 6500 rpm, big deal, but with cams and springs, might be something to start thinking about. I don`t look forward to shimming and checking all the lifters but .... if it makes more power...

Post by **Mettler** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:30 pm

Don't need to man, one of the local stockcar boys who I have been dealing with regarding parts etc is making around 500 flywheel HP (remember this is at 10.0:1 CR due to regulations) and revving to 9000RPM on stock rods and retaining the factory HLAs.

I'm building my motor & setting the ECU at 8000RPM limiter, and the cams should provide excellent mid and high range power & torque.

You won't need to change the HLAs, solid lifters are excessive for street use.

Post by **gs14racer** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:21 pm

I want the cams now.

Post by **Mettler** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:13 pm

I've gone over Q45Tech's concerns again, and will put a bit of investigation into the development of cams mainly on the exhaust side, and see whether we can't beef up the low to mid range torque with a set of profiles more suited to use in a standard Q.

I've been focusing mainly on cams to suit my own needs (and those of us who thrash our motors in transplant projects), but I'll try to accomodate everyone. Your ideas and input are more than welcome in this department, it may seem like I have been ignoring some of your points, but that's because I obviously have different goals with my motor.

Anyways, nothing particularly amazing to show here except a left side VTC sprocket assembly in its retard and advance positions. It's important we don't forget that the sprocket only induces 10 degrees advance on the cam to create this 20 degrees difference in valve timing that the piston sees. If I'm wrong, someone please point this out so I don't stuff it up!

Retard/idle/over 4600rpm:

Advance 10deg. cam (20deg. crank)/1500-4600rpm:

Post by **gs14racer** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:37 am

so whats up with this

any news mettler

Post by **Mettler** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:49 am

Well here's the story so far m8.

I've got a cylinder head in at metrology calibration, scheduled for measuring on their CMM measuring machine. This thing will build me an accurate 3d map of the valvetrain, ports, combustion chamber etc.

Effectively, I'm going to have accurate valve positioning to 0.004mm tolerance.

The only problem is, I submitted the cylinder head over a month ago and they still haven't done it. My job is considered a smalltime job, as I'm an individual customer rather than a company.

This has put me on the SERIOUS backburner... and I'm PISSED about it. I'm gonna ring up today and have a huge whinge about getting my **** done!

Once I have my 3d head data I can finalise the 3d assembly and actually perform the piston/valve clearance simulations.

Only one problem after that, I'm pretty skint on money, and my only concern between now and christmas is to get my car running for summer so I can cruise the beach in my V8 Skyline with the sunroof open etc.

What this means with regards to cam development, is that it's effectively also on hold until at least after new years. The research will be finished as it's free, the designs will be completed too. I may even go so far as to machine my roundbars into blanks... but having the grind & hardening done is an expense that doesn't fit into my scheme to have my car ready for summer.

The cams are still coming, but the schedule has been extended.

Trust me man, out of everyone, I'm feeling the long wait the most. I really want to get this project finished and under my belt, but so far I've been dependent on so many factors to align for me, that I've just gotten stuck into other aspects which have shifted priority for me.

Post by **nismology** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:38 am

Great work! I'm anxiously awaiting the results of this.

I just wanted to comment on your illustrations concerning the advance/retard angle. Since the VH45 crankshaft rotates clockwise if you are viewing the motor from the front the advanced angle would be measured in the direction of engine rotation (clockwise). Just wanted to clear that up.

PS: First post. Go easy on the n00b.

Post by **Mettler** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:29 am

nismology wrote:Great work! I'm anxiously awaiting the results of this.

I just wanted to comment on your illustrations concerning the advance/retard angle. Since the VH45 crankshaft rotates clockwise if you are viewing the motor from the front the advanced angle would be measured in the direction of engine rotation (clockwise). Just wanted to clear that up.

PS: First post. Go easy on the n00b.

Haha, yeah I know man... it's been done right! As you can see it does advance the camshaft clockwise, but because it's flipped around and you're looking at it from the other side, it appears to be turning counter-clockwise.

Oh, and there's progress now. I got my CMM measurements back, have replicated the valvetrain part positioning, and am presently finishing a few things off to run the simulation (still gotta model the finger rocker arm etc).

Before anyone gives me grief that the conrod or 'crankshaft' etc isn't modeled properly, consider that the detail of what they actually look like is irrelevant for the purpose of the simulation, and I have the important dimensions in place so that they actually behave as they would in the real assembly. Also, I only have to simulate everything in cylinder 1, and then just pattern what I design to each cylinder's cam lobes. Check it out:

Post by **tmorgan4** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:48 am

That is some seriously impressive CAD work!

Post by **redhat-z** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:21 am

Any updates on cams?

Post by **Mettler** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:30 pm

If there were, I'd have posted them :p

I'm too busy working on my actual car, y'know, something that'll give me enjoyment when it's up and running again, than some cams that would be of no use to me if I finished designing them first!

Post by **redhat-z** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:40 pm

No need to get hostile.

We are all trying to get our projects running.

Post by **Mettler** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:30 pm

Ah it wasn't meant to be hostile, I'm a natural smartass & riling people up in jest in almost any everyday conversation is just normal. Sorry m8! But seriously, our CNC lathe operator has left and gone overseas, and a new guy is in the process of being trained to operate it... so for the time being, I'm not touching the cams any further until I get my car up and running & legal, with the engine run in.

Post by **Robstar** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:26 am

Slow and steady wins the race.

Post by **anyotherone** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:31 pm

This thread has been a good read... I'm interested in the results down the road. There is a starting point to every aftermarket... market. An individual or company has to be willing to put forth the time and money into making something like this happen.

All that to say - props for all the hard work man!

Post by **anyotherone** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:29 pm

BTW, not to detract from Mettler's hard work in any way, but I actually just got off the phone with Dustin over at Brian Crower Cams. He said they are very interested in this and they are obtaining core's already.

I'm going to ship him a set of heads on Monday so they can take measurements and figure out what is feasible.

Post by **defrag010** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:43 pm

dang, I contacted BC alot when I was shopping around for a source for VH cam cores and grinds but no one ever got back with me. I sent my set of cams to Mike Jones from jonescams.com. Did they say if their cores were going to be billet or cast?

Cam options for VH, discuss!

Re: (Mettler)

Re: (doctorchee)

Re: (Mettler)

Re: (ultrapulse)

Re: Cam options for VH, discuss! (Mettler)

Re: Cam options for VH, discuss!

Re: (defrag010)

Re: (Mettler)

Re: (autoworkz)

Re: (Mettler)

Re: (Mettler)

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Re: (nismology)

Re: (Mettler)

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